Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby Derny Driver » Wed Nov 06, 2013 10:00 pm

Chuck wrote:Good thread DD, I've enjoyed reading through all the different takes on this. :

I cant believe my schnivelling thread has made 4 pages! It was quiet for a while, but has been boosted in the last few days.
From the posts it appears schnivelling is a way of life for many Sydney crit riders?

Ive been to the Sutherland crits the last 4 or 5 Friday nights, the sit in sprinters have found the pickings pretty lean.
A grade has been won from a breakaway every time.
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by BNA » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:29 am

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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby g-boaf » Thu Nov 07, 2013 6:29 am

Nah Chuck, don't think I've ever seen a smile from him. :)


Don't have much else to say - racing isn't my thing. I don't have the mentality for it (or speed). My breakaways tend to get shut down quite easily. :lol: :oops:
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby Xplora » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:51 am

BNA team TBA?

What kind of sway and clue do the Commisaires have? They are the ones in control of the grading, seems that they are responsible for the proper grading of people? I can't imagine it would be easy, but I'm fresh to racing. Was pretty easy to pick it when I played squash in my teens, but its a big easier to see the action in a concrete box :lol: seems they have it locked up tight in France.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby TimW » Thu Nov 07, 2013 7:52 am

[quote="g-boaf


Don't have much else to say - racing isn't my thing. I don't have the mentality for it (or speed). My breakaways tend to get shut down quite easily. :lol: :oops:
/quote]


Nothing wrong with that Chris, one thing in your favour is your a good hearted bloke, and you enjoy cycling for what it is. :mrgreen:
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby vosadrian » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:36 am

rogan wrote:We'll see... your 30 s to 1 minute power will win you races. After a while you won't have a choice....


I felt like I worked much harder in B grade at ECR than C grade WSID. Not sure how much of that was grade, and how much was the different course (it was tough being on the front into the wind up the hills around the back). Having said that, I felt within my limits and I felt I was mixing it up with the stronger guys near the front. I had enough left near the end to stay with the attacks (at near max effort!) and put on a good sprint (though not good enough!). I felt the level was about right. But if I can keep doing that for a few races I will go up to A. Even if I can't I will give A a go at some point just to see if I can keep with the bunch.

rogan wrote:I was thinking of going, but I was absolute rubbish yesterday, I could barely ride, let alone race. I got passed by some old guy on a hybrid. I wasn't trying, but still, that doesn't happen. Sick? Don't seem to be. Overtrained? Hardly. A side effect of trying to bring my form up for Fitz's in 3 weeks after a 2 week holiday? Probably. Try for next Tuesday (nb weather prediction is not great). Get eon and Brendan out there as well. WSID is better for a break than ECR, as you can keep the effort more even, which makes it easier rolling through. A break at ECR takes a really special effort.


I hope you can find your form. You flew up Berowra only a few weeks ago! If all of us can make next Tuesday, I will come. Otherwise I may give it a miss. I am hitting that point where time management of family and hobbies is leaning heavily in one direction, so I want to pick my times wisely. From my less knowledgeable view, it seems WSID is better for a break. More protected from wind and more brake/acceleration, and less constant speed works against a big bunch. It seems to me if you get your cornering fast, that would be a big advantage at WSID (hotdog), and a few guys working together well could fly through the corners and roll turns quickly.

rogan wrote:Yep, in particular, no one is sandbagging when they've only had 2 or 3 races. Racing is like raising kids. Everyone will give you an opinion. But some people will tell you you're doing it wrong unless you do it the same way they do it. Normal people will sooner or later get bored of just rolling round in reasonable comfort anyway. My personal preference is to get a result, top 3 will do. Then go up next race whilst the form is probably still good.


I will stick in B at least a few races. If I podium more often than not I will go up. It would be nice to get a win in B. I think I am capable of it, but may be harder now if my wheel is marked? Also have to work out a tactic to counter an attack by a sprinter with a leadout. My sprint is OK but needs some work. Need to time it better and select higher gears earlier. I tend to wind up and find I need a bigger gear but then struggle to select it when going full tilt.

Xplora, are you saying the guys you list can't sprint?!?! I beg to differ!! :twisted:
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby g-boaf » Thu Nov 07, 2013 9:43 am

Xplora wrote:BNA team TBA?


Don't know if that's a good idea. Every time I wear the BNA kit, something seems to go wrong. Punctures, etc. Seems remarkably unlucky.

TimW wrote:
[quote="g-boaf


Don't have much else to say - racing isn't my thing. I don't have the mentality for it (or speed). My breakaways tend to get shut down quite easily. :lol: :oops:
/quote]

Nothing wrong with that Chris, one thing in your favour is your a good hearted bloke, and you enjoy cycling for what it is. :mrgreen:


Awww shucks! :D
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby Trek_Arty » Thu Nov 07, 2013 2:45 pm

Hahaha Schnivelling!! I love it :lol: :lol:

My favorite is when other riders criticize you for riding tempo on the front of a race while your club mate in the break rides off to take the win!... now i know what to call them!! :D
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby rogan » Thu Nov 07, 2013 3:22 pm

Trek_Arty wrote:Hahaha Schnivelling!! I love it :lol: :lol:

My favorite is when other riders criticize you for riding tempo on the front of a race while your club mate in the break rides off to take the win!... now i know what to call them!! :D


:D

Don't know what his story was that day... fair enough, there's a minor objection to be made to team riding in B Grade, but your guys in that race (40% of a large field, by my guess) were very much entitled to not actually assist the chase of their teammates who were well and truly established and away (30 s to a minute up the road). FWIW, I personally object when I'm in an established break being chased down by my teammates regardless of the grade. It does happen; it's happened to me this year.

Anyway, your guy wasn't a schniveller, he was more like Chuck's example - a sprinter who presumably thinks others exist for the sole purpose of getting him to the line with a chance of the win. There's another word for people like that... it starts and ends with "d". I've never seen such a reaction to perfectly legitimate and obvious racing tactics.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby brendan c » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:02 pm

Sitting in the wheels yelling out when someone attacks? chase it yourself!
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby michaelten » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:14 pm

brendan c wrote:Sitting in the wheels yelling out when someone attacks? chase it yourself!


:lol: I hate that one too! Normally someone who hasn't had any time on the front, sitting in, doing nothing yelling at everyone else to chase down the breaks.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby nailsaslegs » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:20 pm

Derny I love this thread hahahaha- Was it B Derny or S Derny?

Well depends on the race....in a crit usually I will attack I find it hard not to be honest I like to make them as hard as possible for everyone.

In a handicap, it depends....depends who is in the group also depends if its a Club or State race or if I'm training or actually want a result. But.....I will do hard turns on the front and either you can swap off with me or get dropped in the first 10k Then I will ride tempo. Come to a climb and I will sit on a wheel, usually have talked my way into that position. Scratch race, again I will do hard turns, if your strong you can swap off, if you don't do a turn I will have a word, still don't do a turn I'll try and drop them.

Then again I have been known to break away for the win, or sit on wheels for the last 10ks of a race and wait for the final 1000m.

No Schnivelling here though Sir....
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Nov 07, 2013 5:30 pm

brendan c wrote:Sitting in the wheels yelling out when someone attacks? chase it yourself!

Come on!... you want to rob the Schniveller of his number one weapon! ... shame on you :mrgreen:
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby ft_critical » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:13 pm

Trek_Arty wrote:My favorite is when other riders criticize you for riding tempo on the front of a race while your club mate in the break rides off to take the win!... now i know what to call them!! :D


Sorry, different animal. This is the 'soft pedaller.' I hate these people. Mostly they have nothing, the best they can do is ride to the front once or twice and disrupt things. It is very negative racing. Ride to the front, and it is not tempo they ride, it is sub-tempo high spin, slow it down. What is the point in club racing? Guys who can't get in a break, can't sprint, thinking that negative racing is a 'team' victory. There was a lot of criticism of NSCC racing like this at Beauie. 80% of the field is NSCC but they won't ride hard or help because one of the NSCC riders is in a break.
You are from the same club, not a team.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby winstonw » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:21 pm

love the term. I hate muppets who sit in for 45 minutes, and do a little sprint at the end. quite spineless really.

nevertheless, as a seasoned sprinter who does this regular says: "in crits, ye can win, or ye can make friends...but ye can-oot do both laddy"

my view, at least at Nundah and Lakeside, is bunch sprints are what low browed knuckle dragging neanderthals do who are too thick to execute a break and make it stick....that takes brains, cooperation, communication, and talent.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby skull » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:25 pm

I have done the soft pedal at the front trick.

Usually when a mate is trying to make a break and I am helping him out. Or if I am a bit buggered from chasing or trying to attack and I want to slow yhe race down.

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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby Xplora » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:44 pm

I'm really struggling to understand what is positive and negative racing... I thought negative racing was squashing all break attempts, and just waiting until a bunch sprint? Wouldn't you want to encourage breakaways as positive racing? I would have thought that part of the art of tactics is realising that someone is soft pedalling to help consolidate the break? After all, it takes two to tango - no breaks if the bunch won't let anything go, regardless how hard the attacks are.
:?:
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby nailsaslegs » Thu Nov 07, 2013 8:45 pm

skull wrote:I have done the soft pedal at the front trick.


Sent from my GT-I9505 using Tapatalk 4


Yep Ive done the same and told my team to do the same so S Derny could win the SVT ;) eh Derny :)
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby Derny Driver » Thu Nov 07, 2013 10:57 pm

nailsaslegs wrote:Derny I love this thread hahahaha- Was it B Derny or S Derny?
.............................
No Schnivelling here though Sir....

Blair mate. Perfect example last week's handicap. Both rode off scratch. Blair didn't miss a turn and busted his arse swapping off with the NRS riders and scratch got up with 4km to go, which hasn't happened in a while. Then the smack went down in the last 4k and the scratchies whittled the bunch from 50 to 15. Blair got shelled because he had nothing left. Sam cleverly followed every move and covered everything and got 2nd and 2nd fastest.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby Trek_Arty » Fri Nov 08, 2013 8:16 am

ft_critical wrote:
Trek_Arty wrote:My favorite is when other riders criticize you for riding tempo on the front of a race while your club mate in the break rides off to take the win!... now i know what to call them!! :D


Sorry, different animal. This is the 'soft pedaller.' I hate these people. Mostly they have nothing, the best they can do is ride to the front once or twice and disrupt things. It is very negative racing. Ride to the front, and it is not tempo they ride, it is sub-tempo high spin, slow it down. What is the point in club racing? Guys who can't get in a break, can't sprint, thinking that negative racing is a 'team' victory. There was a lot of criticism of NSCC racing like this at Beauie. 80% of the field is NSCC but they won't ride hard or help because one of the NSCC riders is in a break.
You are from the same club, not a team.


Then call me the 'soft pedaller' :)
If I'm not in a position to win then i'll do my best to help a friend / club mate to do so..... as i have 'politely' :roll: explained to others who may have previously complained.... There's plenty of room at the front!!!!
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby ft_critical » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:47 am

Trek_Arty wrote:Then call me the 'soft pedaller' :)
If I'm not in a position to win then i'll do my best to help a friend / club mate to do so..... as i have 'politely' :roll: explained to others who may have previously complained.... There's plenty of room at the front!!!!


CyclingTips wrote:Blocking is a race strategy you may have heard of before. It involves riders with the same interests moving up to the front of the main field while they have a teammate ahead in a break. The riders at the front will disrupt the pace so that the breakaway has a chance to get away and an organized chase never gets off the ground.

This is a legitimate tactic that does the exact job it’s intended to. Pro teams don’t actually “block” per se. Teams will go to the front of the peloton to control the pace by riding what’s called a “false tempo“. Just fast enough so that it doesn’t look obvious that a disruption to the pace is occurring, but not so fast that they’ll catch the breakaway.

I think this tactic is all fine and dandy for races that are comprised fully of teams, however I don’t agree with teams using this tactic in club racing. Club races are mostly made up of individual riders along with a couple stacked teams. It doesn’t take much for those teams to get one or two guys in the breakaway and then completely shut the race down. This makes for a horribly frustrating and negative race for the rest of the riders. The only thing that the individuals can do is organize their own chase (which is difficult to do) but it often futile because the larger teams will just roll through to the front and disrupt the pace.

In my opinion the tactful way for teams to handle breakaways is to go back to the middle of the peloton and sit in (if they have a rider in the break). If a chase gets organized then they should let it happen without disruption. This makes the race better for everyone and it doesn’t become a numbers game for the teams.


Blocking certainly annoys the schnivellers though :twisted:
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby Trek_Arty » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:01 am

ft_critical wrote: Blocking certainly annoys the schnivellers though :twisted:


hehe certainly does.... :lol:
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby Xplora » Fri Nov 08, 2013 10:47 am

I think there is levels to the CT comment that teams shouldn't do this in individual races - the straight at Eastern Creek could take 20 riders across quite safely, I recall walking the track as a younger lad and it must have been 10 lanes wide - but the long straight at Penrith Regatta Centre is only going to fit three pushing for position if they are brave souls. Isn't half of strategy to ensure you don't get boxed in at the wrong time? It seems absolutely fine to discuss this in the bunch sprint, but if it's earlier in the race we're not allowed to box in riders?

I'm happy to be told otherwise; I'm just thinking through the logic of it, and it seems to be biased in favour of the sprinter's race. I'm not a sprinter, so I will naturally assume that this is unfair since it's not in my interest :lol:
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby zozza » Fri Nov 08, 2013 11:24 am

rogan wrote:Anyway, your guy wasn't a schniveller, he was more like Chuck's example - a sprinter who presumably thinks others exist for the sole purpose of getting him to the line with a chance of the win. There's another word for people like that... it starts and ends with "d". I've never seen such a reaction to perfectly legitimate and obvious racing tactics.


I'm sure Chuck and a few others will agree that a more suitable term starts with B and ends in Y :mrgreen:
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby nailsaslegs » Fri Nov 08, 2013 9:22 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Sounds like a bludger dipped in bread crumbs.



One thing I don't get is team style racing in anything other than the top grade on the day of the race. That's just lame.


Interesting article in the latest Bicycling mag about teams in Club races.... Lets not mention Tour of Bright..............


If your not in a team then you have little hope of winning if a Team turns up unless that team races individually. For me I like team racing adds another perspective to racing also makes the racing a lot more tactical and harder. Some of the big state races we race as a team otherwise we race individually...mostly....
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