Cadence: spin or push harder

[ICU812]

Just wanting to clear things up for myself. I've been told I'm better off to spin a higher cadence than to push a harder gear. I don't have a cadence gadget on my computer, although pricey, I could get one if it is worth it. Lately I decided to up my gear a bit and push harder to strengthen my legs. Is this ok? (I've got that spin thing stuck in my head ) I have found it is now paying off and I'm finding the hills a bit easier than before. Is cadence a personal thing or should I stick to spinning? Thanks for your thoughts. Sam

[Mulger bill]

Spinning is kinder on the knees than mashing Sam, aim at a cadence of 80-100 rpm. I'd recommend a cadence computer.

Shaun

[sogood]

You can mash, but you won't recover. You can spin, and you'll spin again.

[JV911]

spin it up!

[Parrott]

Spinning works the cardiovascular system harder but saves the leg muscles more. I find if I keep the cadence higher I still have some legs for my somewhat average sprint at the end of a race. Whereas if I try too push a higher gear with the cadence lower I cramp more and have nothing left for any sprint.

[Matt_Matt]

+1 for spinning

[Kev365428]

My garmin recorded a max cadence of 144 in my last crit race



Kev.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Spin a big gear.

Chasing cadence is a folly. Ride by effort level.

[toolonglegs]

Spin a big gear.

Chasing cadence is a folly. Ride by effort level.

Todays 90k ride I did with tape over my CS200...a very hard ride on pretty flat terrain...all on perceived effort level.Yes slight difference to say the least. ...santa I need a power meter!.

[sogood]

Chasing cadence is a folly. Ride by effort level.

You need to elaborate.

[lang]

ICU812 you can get a sigma 1606L computer with cadence from about US$30 via eBay. It ain't expensive.

[ICU812]

Wow, great response - thanks guys. When I spin I feel as though I'm getting nowhere (although I am, but my speed drops) - a weird feeling. I also find I can't seem to get my legs going fast enough - it is as though they don't know how to spin together (one leg stonger than the other?), perhaps practice makes perfect,
Thanks Sam

[Bnej]

You can do both.

Spin faster and push harder makes more power.

I can spin 160 rpm in my bottom gear on the flat and it won't do me any good because there's no significant effort there.

[bmxbandito]

Agree with Alex onthis one.I get sick of nearly blowing my front tyre out on dudes clusters in front of me when they decide to raise their cadence.Most guys going backwards towards the back door of the bunch have a really high cadence really high heatrate but really low speed Just pedal what u can while racing theres too much other stuff to worry about while going warpfactor.Worry about all that other technical stuff for your training just race smart sit in when u feel crap & go like a demon when u feel on fire
PS I dont use any sort of computer I just figure if I get dropped I just should have looked at my HTFU band on my wrist more
Go the leg strength spin a big gear youll love the speed that comes with it
Jeff

[chris641]

If you want leg strength go up some mountains. As for cadence i am normally in between 90 and 100 for the majority of my rides. Easier on the knees, plus the pros do it and if its good enough for them its good enough for me.

[stryker84]

Also, do you have a speedo? Don't need anything with fancy cadence or anyhing, just the current speed, and perhaps an average. What I noticed is thta it 'feels' like your slowing down, or not doing any work, but rather you make better speed spinning due to work efficiency.

Otherwise, you may indeed be going faster mashing gears, but only for a short spurt, then you'll slow drastically when the legs finally give out. I'd think you'd have a better average speed spinning over the journey.

Tip I found useful? When learning how to spin, push a given gear until you think it's time to upshift, then spin it a bit more. THEN change.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Chasing cadence is a folly. Ride by effort level.

You need to elaborate.

Cadence is an outcome of the power we are/can produce, the resistance forces acting against us and the gear we happen to be in.

We control cadence no more than we control the torque being applied to the cranks. You cannot isolate one from the other and it is a folly to believe one can.

What we are actually able to control, physiologically, is the power we are generating. If we generate more power, all else being equal we will spin faster. Or be able to ride a bigger gear.

Hence, focus on the effort level or intensity, not the cadence.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

If you want leg strength go up some mountains.

The forces involved in riding even up quite steep hills are still way too low to induce changes in leg strength.

For example, let's say you are quite a fit cyclist capable of going sustaining 350watts up a climb.

The peak pedal forces when riding 350W at 85rpm are equivalent to lifting ~23 kg.

You'll generate significantly more force just walking up stairs with each leg lifting your own body weight.

plus the pros do it and if its good enough for them its good enough for me.

That in itself is a poor rationale. Some pros use PEDs for instance. Does that make it good enough for you?

[sogood]

Cadence is an outcome of the power we are/can produce, the resistance forces acting against us and the gear we happen to be in.

We control cadence no more than we control the torque being applied to the cranks. You cannot isolate one from the other and it is a folly to believe one can.

What we are actually able to control, physiologically, is the power we are generating. If we generate more power, all else being equal we will spin faster. Or be able to ride a bigger gear.

Hence, focus on the effort level or intensity, not the cadence.

I agree with what you said based on this angle. But I think the more common issue with cadence for a lot of new riders is that they just can't sustain a higher cadence, even if they have the power. And then that relates to the often touted benefits of riding at higher cadence ie. Less stress on the joints and faster recovery following an effort. Further, for a casual rider who aren't into speed and racing, preservation of knees may have a higher priority.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I agree with what you said based on this angle. But I think the more common issue with cadence for a lot of new riders is that they just can't sustain a higher cadence, even if they have the power. And then that relates to the often touted benefits of riding at higher cadence ie. Less stress on the joints and faster recovery following an effort. Further, for a casual rider who aren't into speed and racing, preservation of knees may have a higher priority.

Recovery is related to the intensity and duration you are riding at (relative to your current fitness level / training loads), and has very little to do with cadence. Unless one has a power meter and knows how hard they actually have been riding, then one is talking out their proverbial backside on that.

People who gear down and spin faster are probably just riding at a lower overall power.

People say spinning is easier on the knees. Granted, at the same power, the average and peak forces are lower the faster one pedals, but they are already very low. I mean walking up stairs generates several times the forces involved in pedalling (even pedalling a big gear uphill).

Even slogging away at 300 watts at 50rpm is equivalent to peak forces of only approx 34 kg. That would be less than half of most people's body mass.

Doing it at 75 rpm and you're down to around 22kg equivalent peak force. At a more typical 90 rpm and you're at 19kg. So if people are getting knee problems from pushing peak forces which are the equivalent of a fraction of their body weight, then something else is wrong.

(This is also, BTW, why big gear hill work doesn't induce strength adaptations - the forces involved are far too low to induce such gains, either neurological or via hypertrophy).

I would suggest knee problems from riding are probably more due to:
- an inherit knee problem which is simply aggravated by riding
- poor bike set up

[Nate]

interesting reading...

Alex makes some nice points, i.e. cadence is a result, not an input etc...

I think there's probably an average "range" thats good for a human to be in, but its probably a personal thing.
If you're a long distance marathon built person with slow twitch fibres, you're maybe a higher cadence, power sprinter - maybe a lower cadence...

I think the only real way to find your optimal range is to do a *heap* of runs, same course, time of day etc...
Cycle at different cadences (a few times), note recovery, ability to sprint etc...
and see which gives you the fastest time... surely that'll be the "best" for you right?

i sit around the 70 or so cadence to/from work

[chris641]

If you want leg strength go up some mountains.

The forces involved in riding even up quite steep hills are still way too low to induce changes in leg strength.

But surely pedalling up mountains gives you more cycling specific leg strength?

plus the pros do it and if its good enough for them its good enough for me.

That in itself is a poor rationale. Some pros use PEDs for instance. Does that make it good enough for you?

And no, that is a stupid thing to say. My point was that the majority of professional riders would pedal at a cadence of between 80 and 100. Obviously being professionals they would have access to all the high tech crap and be armed with the knowledge of the best way to go fast while not burning out. Yes? Maybe i should have worded it differently but I stand by the point.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

But surely pedalling up mountains gives you more cycling specific leg strength?

Well cycling up hils helps you get better at cycling up hills. I have no argument with that.

However it has nothing to do with strength. Strength is defined as the maximal force generation capacity of a muscle or group of muscles. The forces when pedalling at aerobic power levels (up hill or otherwise) are simply much much lower than our maximal force generation ability, and as such as far too low to increase leg strength.

And no, that is a stupid thing to say. My point was that the majority of professional riders would pedal at a cadence of between 80 and 100. Obviously being professionals they would have access to all the high tech crap and be armed with the knowledge of the best way to go fast while not burning out. Yes? Maybe i should have worded it differently but I stand by the point.

I don't think it needs fancy science to work out that people tend to gravitate towards pedalling in those cadence ranges. You just have to ride, train and race to work out that in general, pedalling at those ranges tends to be a bit more effective.

[chris641]

Agreed.. and agreed. Obviously you are much more knowledgable than me when it comes to these things. All i was trying to say was that i believe that cadence range is the most beneficial

Cheers

[Alex Simmons/RST]

When it comes to cadence, one shouldn't fall into the trap of thinking that just because it's easy to measure, that it is important.

Unless you are also measuring torque at the same time as cadence, then really you are not getting anything particularly useful from the info.