Isolated Leg Training (ILT) effectiveness

[sogood]

Professionals wouldn't "scrape mud off their shoe" at the bottom of the stroke - an effect of pulling the pedal backwards.

Errr... Sounds good but based on what I've read, direct measurements have found that most pros are mashers without the low cadence. Power remain concentrated on the down stroke.

[sogood]

The triathletes do the one leg drills in Sydney's Centennial park on Wednesday mornings. I think they are doing it up sprinters hill.

That would be quite a sight!

[colafreak]

Professionals wouldn't "scrape mud off their shoe" at the bottom of the stroke - an effect of pulling the pedal backwards.

Errr... Sounds good but based on what I've read, direct measurements have found that most pros are mashers without the low cadence. Power remain concentrated on the down stroke.

OK, haven't come across that myself. That doesn't sound impossible, though. don't suppose you've got a source to look at?

[sogood]

OK, haven't come across that myself. That doesn't sound impossible, though. don't suppose you've got a source to look at?

Unfortunately I don't have a link for that handy and it'll take an effort to find it again through Google.

I think the point is this. One can do all that "circular pedaling motion" when the pace is off. But when the pace is on, that downstroke will again dominate.

[colafreak]

Yeah, and also when the fatigue sets in.

For me, though, that's why I do think about it consciously. Slowly but surely I find myself doing it unconsciously, then.

[mikesbytes]

The triathletes do the one leg drills in Sydney's Centennial park on Wednesday mornings. I think they are doing it up sprinters hill.

That would be quite a sight!

Ask Joanne about it

[DanielS]

This thread on another forum might be of interest: http://cyclingforums.com/t233514.html

[Bnej]

First and foremost, any downward pressure you have on the upstroke is wasting energy.

No it isn't.

It would be if you were just a pair of legs anchored to a fixed point, but your legs are attached to a dynamic body mass.

Pushing one leg down also lifts the other up, along with the mass on that side. This sets you up to take the next pedal stroke - so it's not "wasted", it is stored by moving weight around.

------

You will NEVER be able to achieve the same force through the whole pedal stroke as you can at the front of the stroke. It cannot be done - your legs are stronger pushing down at the front than they are in any other part of the stroke.

You can reduce the amount of your own weight you are lifting on the reverse part of the stroke, but this is not free energy - you have to shift that mass through some other action - probably hoisting with your other leg anchored from the saddle or handlebars.

Clipless pedals remove some of the energy expended used to hold your feet on the pedals. They allow you to extend the power stroke too - but even for the top pro riders, there is a lot of power coming through the front of the stroke, and a slight push down at the back too, and a small amount at the top and bottom of the stroke.

There was a chart in a cycling magazine a while ago showing force through the pedal circle, but I don't recall which publication.

[sogood]

There was a chart in a cycling magazine a while ago showing force through the pedal circle, but I don't recall which publication.

Like this one?

http://www.racermateinc.com/spinscan.asp

[Bnej]

Like this one?

Similar but easier to read!

[Alex Simmons/RST]

circular pedalling improves efficiency.

First and foremost, any downward pressure you have on the upstroke is wasting energy.

Secondly, spreading a given amount of power throughout the whole revolution as opposed to having dead spots and strong spots will help maximise the power you can put out over a given period of time. If it didn't:
We wouldn't bother with clipless pedals; and
Professionals wouldn't "scrape mud off their shoe" at the bottom of the stroke - an effect of pulling the pedal backwards.


I post with a great sense of foreboding at saying something contrary to Alex's opinion (famous last words). He is a cycling coach and I'm not.

Nonetheless it's out there and it's worth considering all the information available, I believe. There are plenty of well-respected scientists that disagree with other well-respected scientists over different issues.

The real question is, would one-leg-pedalling increase efficiency? One thing's for sure, if you're not balanced, you will rock back and forth making you more like a piston engine, definitely not helpful.
I have had good experiences with it, but can't really be bothered trying to prove it.

My position or role in life really has nothing to do with it and I have no opinion, I just rely on the available research and science and a critical assessment as to whether the conclusions reached by certain research is backed up by the data provided (which is not always the case).

What I can tell you what the best research has found:

The most powerful cyclists have the least even application of force (or torque if you like) around the pedal stroke. Their greater power* comes from applying greater peak forces on the downstroke and not from a more even application of forces or what some might term "circular pedalling".

* we are talking TT power here, the most important physiological characteristic for endurance cycling.

There is no link between "cycling style" and efficiency.

Probably the best paper on this is by Ed Coyle et al:

Physiological and biomechanical factors associated with elite endurance cycling performance.
Authors: E.F. Coyle; M.E. Feltner; S.A. Kautz; M.T. Hamilton; S.J. Montain; A.M. Baylor; L.D. Abraham; and G.W. Petrek
Published 1991.

Here is the extract:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1997818

While Coyle et al actually did the research to clearly demonstrate this, there is also excellent item from a biomechanical principles point of view published in Professor Asker Jeukendrup's 2002 book: High Performance Cycling.

The item is called Biomechanics by Jos de Koning and Knoek van Soest and it clearly demonstrates from first principles why such an attempt to apply torque more evenly will not result in greater power. I suggest anyone interested in the topic read it.


Finally, I make this comment - it would be a mistake think that applying a greater downward pressure equates to a rougher or "masher" style of pedalling. These are highly developed pedalling actions and most have the appearance of being very smooth despite the actual force application "curve" being more peaky than us "mere mortals".

The same applies to the very high powers associated with track sprinting. It is the very ability to apply greater peak force values on the downstroke but at very high legs speeds that is what makes those guys very quick.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

There was a chart in a cycling magazine a while ago showing force through the pedal circle, but I don't recall which publication.

http://www.racermateinc.com/spinscan.asp

Spinscan should really be called Spinscam.

It's a real shame that an otherwise excellent product makes claims to be able to improve a pedalling style with this.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

This thread on another forum might be of interest: http://cyclingforums.com/t233514.html

Now there's a few days of one's life you won't get back....

[Alex Simmons/RST]

The triathletes do the one leg drills in Sydney's Centennial park on Wednesday mornings. I think they are doing it up sprinters hill.

That would be quite a sight!

Yes and is painful to watch and looks like a great way to injure oneself.

[mikesbytes]

The triathletes do the one leg drills in Sydney's Centennial park on Wednesday mornings. I think they are doing it up sprinters hill.

That would be quite a sight!

Yes and is painful to watch and looks like a great way to injure oneself.

Have you seen them doing it at Centennial park ?

[Alex Simmons/RST]

That would be quite a sight!

Yes and is painful to watch and looks like a great way to injure oneself.

Have you seen them doing it at Centennial park ?

In the past I have. It was cringeworthy. Obviously I haven't been in Centennial as much over the last 18 months or so.

[colafreak]

I post with a great sense of foreboding at saying something contrary to Alex's opinion (famous last words).

I am Nostradamus.

Apologies for posting material contrary to official Alex doctrine on Alex's forum.



On a serious note, I'd love to go through and actually post a response to each of the statements I take issue with, but it's really not worth it. I post what I post so others can read the information and make their own decisions. I'm not here to give you the opportunity to indulge your ego.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I post with a great sense of foreboding at saying something contrary to Alex's opinion (famous last words).

I am Nostradamus.

Apologies for posting material contrary to official Alex doctrine on Alex's forum.



On a serious note, I'd love to go through and actually post a response to each of the statements I take issue with, but it's really not worth it. I post what I post so others can read the information and make their own decisions. I'm not here to give you the opportunity to indulge your ego.

Say What?

Play the ball, not the man.

It sure ain't my forum.

[mikesbytes]

Yes and is painful to watch and looks like a great way to injure oneself.

Have you seen them doing it at Centennial park ?

In the past I have. It was cringeworthy. Obviously I haven't been in Centennial as much over the last 18 months or so.

Are they doing it up sprinters hill (the one straight after the toilet block) ?

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Are they doing it up sprinters hill (the one straight after the toilet block) ?

I have seen it up that hill and also on the hill from Cafe up to Paddington gates.

[Parrott]

Alex, I really appreciate the information you post on here and really hope you continue to do so and are not discouraged by the opinion of one person. Certainly learning heaps, Thanks

[sogood]

Alex, I really appreciate the information you post on here and really hope you continue to do so and are not discouraged by the opinion of one person. Certainly learning heaps, Thanks

Which person?

Seriously though, a good forum is one that has everyone's views challenged. A forum that's dominated by the view of one or few is not a forum worth participating in.

[colafreak]

I had decided not to post again because I really don't want to argue the point.

But what sogood said is where I'm coming from. What Alex is saying may very well be correct - I may very well be wrong.

I personally have some reservations about the source of his information and I personally believe there is a lot of evidence supporting the fact that piston-engine is not the best style, however I'm not here to argue back and forth about it, merely to present information and apply it. I'm not here to force everyone (ANYONE!) to agree with me!!!!

There's usually evidence on both sides of the story and it's the interpretation and implementation of such which creates opposing theories. I'm by no means encouraging anyone to stop posting, quite the contrary.

[Alex Simmons/RST]

I personally have some reservations about the source of his information and I personally believe there is a lot of evidence supporting the fact that piston-engine is not the best style, however I'm not here to argue back and forth about it, merely to present information and apply it.

Then post the evidence.

When people question what I might suggest, at least I am pointing them to sources of information so they can make up their own mind.

I am more than happy to review new evidence and understand where existing peer reviewed evidence may have failings.

[philip]

I had decided not to post again because I really don't want to argue the point.

I really like these forums (compared to other forums on the net this one has to be one of the most civilised I've come across) because of the huge amount of useful information and the way people discuss different issues without resorting to personal attacks or huge arguments (most of the time )

Instead of viewing this as an argument, how about you view it as a constructive discussion - you don't have to be right or wrong, it's doesn't have to be a competition - instead of saying "I don't want to argue this any more", post your reasons for saying what you say and as Alex said, everyone should have an open mind and should be happy to discuss/review other ideas