Mid Foot Cleat.

For Roadies

Mid Foot Cleat.

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Jan 08, 2009 8:10 am

More info please :D .
Alex,what does your client think of the mid foot cleat position?...why dosen't he run it all the time?.
Does any know of any other shoes that run than the very expensive $1000 german ones?.As far as I can tell even with them it is only possible to run mtb pedals...hence I am thinking of drilling my Sidi boots and fitting a set of SPD cleats on to give it a try.I think the boots can handle a couple of 5 mm holes in the soles...plastic,not carbon and they have a nice flat area to grip to as well...my achilies problem is such a pain that I am willing to try it...and from what I read apart from not quite the same jump in a sprint,there are many more advantages than disadvantages.
Anyway sleep time here...wont be riding outside tommorow,just put the car away and it is already -8 outside...real cold snap in Euroland at the mo!.
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14461
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

by BNA » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:08 pm

BNA
 

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jan 08, 2009 12:08 pm

He uses it occasionally for relatively flat TT efforts. It is essentially an experiment to assess if any additional performance can be obtained. it has nothing to do with strains/injuries/comfort.

I can't really give you much more than that at this stage.

It's a pretty tricky issue as changing cleat position so much has other natural consequences. Saddle height has to drop 30-40mm, maybe a fore/aft ajustment as well, bars prob need to drop as well but not quite as much as the saddle. Those changes alone may mean a favourite bike can't be adequately adjusted, or at least not cheaply.

Then you need to consider slow riding manoueverability given the large foot overlap with the front wheel.

Of course actually finding shoes/cleat you can do this with is tricky.

Perhaps there are other solutions to your problem. Maybe mid-foot is a little OTT?
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3463
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Re: Mid Foot Cleat.

Postby JV911 » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:08 pm

toolonglegs wrote:...wont be riding outside tommorow,just put the car away and it is already -8 outside...real cold snap in Euroland at the mo!.


off topic but how the gas supply there? i see those wacky ruskis are causing dramas again
<---LACC--->
<---BMC SLR01--->

User avatar
JV911
 
Posts: 5451
Joined: Mon Sep 01, 2008 1:22 pm
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Mid Foot Cleat.

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:27 pm

JV911 wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:...wont be riding outside tommorow,just put the car away and it is already -8 outside...real cold snap in Euroland at the mo!.


off topic but how the gas supply there? i see those wacky ruskis are causing dramas again


In this region it is all bottled gas...so no problems.We have 2000 litre oil burner for hot water...no cheap!...or clean!!!.
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14461
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Jan 08, 2009 6:29 pm

Thanks Alex,I have been reading up on midfoot a fair bit over the last 6 months,even thou there isn't much info.It might be a bit OTT for now as I still need to see what the specialists say about it...but it is really painful and nagging,which of course knocks training on the head!.1st race is on 1 March,flat crit course I think for 75km...hopefully I am fit enough for a go!.
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14461
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Postby ajh_ausnzcf » Sun Jan 11, 2009 10:55 pm

Midfoot is natural for me the best foot sole bedding on the down cycle and greatest efficiency. Only problem is I had to go through two pairs of shoes which were lacking in appropriate adjustment potential. The cleat could not move far enough back. I'll be testing a third pair soon after persisting with the previous, if that fails I'll think custom will be needed.
Axles A Randonee O Noodle.

"Doc, just tell me straight ... am I going to die?"
User avatar
ajh_ausnzcf
 
Posts: 408
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:16 am
Location: North Perth West

Postby Chuck » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:08 pm

Is there an ideal cleat position ?
Image
FPR Ragamuffin
User avatar
Chuck
 
Posts: 4220
Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 9:19 pm
Location: Hiding in the bunch

Postby ajh_ausnzcf » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:19 pm

Chuck wrote:Is there an ideal cleat position ?


I've got one for each foot. I can "feel" how far my adjustment is from that.
Axles A Randonee O Noodle.

"Doc, just tell me straight ... am I going to die?"
User avatar
ajh_ausnzcf
 
Posts: 408
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:16 am
Location: North Perth West

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:22 pm

ajh_ausnzcf wrote:Midfoot is natural for me the best foot sole bedding on the down cycle and greatest efficiency. Only problem is I had to go through two pairs of shoes which were lacking in appropriate adjustment potential. The cleat could not move far enough back. I'll be testing a third pair soon after persisting with the previous, if that fails I'll think custom will be needed.


What shoes did you use?...where they true mid foot?...like this...

Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14461
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Postby ajh_ausnzcf » Sun Jan 11, 2009 11:38 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
ajh_ausnzcf wrote:Midfoot is natural for me the best foot sole bedding on the down cycle and greatest efficiency. Only problem is I had to go through two pairs of shoes which were lacking in appropriate adjustment potential. The cleat could not move far enough back. I'll be testing a third pair soon after persisting with the previous, if that fails I'll think custom will be needed.


What shoes did you use?...where they true mid foot?...like this...

Image


No, off the shelf road shoes, Shimano and Pearl Izumi models. So certainly not "midfoot" as in middle of the foot extreme case here. The axle of the pedal lies behind the ball however not that far. That would not be ideal for me, I've experienced this position often for years on non-cleat pedals/shoes. It would cause too much hamstring use and off balance the muscle workings. The problem I have is shoes seemed to be designed for riders to use their toes/fore foot heavily. This forces my body forward over the pedals to balance out the muscle groups working and create problems both in the legs and foot.

How do they work/fit for your physique?
Axles A Randonee O Noodle.

"Doc, just tell me straight ... am I going to die?"
User avatar
ajh_ausnzcf
 
Posts: 408
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:16 am
Location: North Perth West

Postby toolonglegs » Mon Jan 12, 2009 2:49 am

I have never tried them...I don't think they can be compared to riding in non cycling shoes.Mainly because they are carbon fibre soles so would be very rigid...apparently they actually take a lot of pressure of hammies and especially calves (and ankles / achillies which is why I am interested)... but they are really expensive (the ones in the photo would be AU$1200).I am tempted to buy a cheap pair and drill the soles...only issue is that you can really only run mtb pedals.
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14461
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Postby ajh_ausnzcf » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:25 am

Sorry, I see it's the other way around, quads get more work. It's been a long time since I've pedaled like that. Those shoes look like full custom construction, by way of foot moulding, not an off-the-shelf shoe. If they are, then perhaps you can get Speedplay cleats to work well with them. However I expect pedal type is low priority.

Is this setup for people with permanent damage or similar to the area of the leg it relieves? Otherwise I would expect rehabilitation to be the first port of call to gaining back maximum efficient use of the leg mechanics before going down this path. Is that where you are at? This is certainly a whole other situation to my setup problems.
Axles A Randonee O Noodle.

"Doc, just tell me straight ... am I going to die?"
User avatar
ajh_ausnzcf
 
Posts: 408
Joined: Fri Oct 03, 2008 1:16 am
Location: North Perth West

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Jan 12, 2009 8:39 am

One thing I am hoping to do is to conduct aerodynamic field testing to assess whether there is any aerodynamic benefit to the change in position for my rider.

Certainly he seems to be able to produce the power equally well in either mode, although once the course gets variable terrain (e.g. Calga) then he struggles with mid-foot.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3463
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Postby toolonglegs » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:26 pm

ajh_ausnzcf wrote:Sorry, I see it's the other way around, quads get more work. It's been a long time since I've pedaled like that. Those shoes look like full custom construction, by way of foot moulding, not an off-the-shelf shoe. If they are, then perhaps you can get Speedplay cleats to work well with them. However I expect pedal type is low priority.

Is this setup for people with permanent damage or similar to the area of the leg it relieves? Otherwise I would expect rehabilitation to be the first port of call to gaining back maximum efficient use of the leg mechanics before going down this path. Is that where you are at? This is certainly a whole other situation to my setup problems.


Yes I think quads get more work...but not a lot more,I think the point is the calves are the limiting factor because they are such a small muscle that they fatigue very quickly where as the quads can handle the workload a lot easier...talking to a few people the speedplay cleats adjustment plates only take your cleats back at max 10mm on what I can get with my Times cleats...I really need to go back another 25mm.There is also a bit of talk that going half way to mid cleat isn't that great...but don't really have many firm facts on that.
On my injuries...well I haven't seen any specialists for many years,but was told at the time of the break and have been told since that I would have problems later in life...it was a very messy break and left me with a lot less movement in that ankle.But I am trying to get my medical insurance sorted here so I can get to see someone.
But the point being that I moved my cleats back 10mm on my existing shoes and it helped a lot.I don't get the feeling that I am trying to tear my tendon from my heal anymore...just a bit of aching when riding,more pain and discomfort afterwards...will only cost me $80 or so to give it a go.I will buy a cheap pair of shoes and attach a mtb spd cleat and see what happens.
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14461
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Postby toolonglegs » Mon Jan 12, 2009 6:32 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:One thing I am hoping to do is to conduct aerodynamic field testing to assess whether there is any aerodynamic benefit to the change in position for my rider.

Certainly he seems to be able to produce the power equally well in either mode, although once the course gets variable terrain (e.g. Calga) then he struggles with mid-foot.


I can see that aerodynamically there would be advantages (possibly) as you are dropping you seat post and bars alot hence less frontal area...I suppose that wouldn't be an issue in tri...but UCI rules would stuff you on seat position...as most racers run their seat nose pretty close to the bb on their TT bikes that going mid foot and having to move your seat forward 25-45 mm would then make it illegal.Saying that I know of at least one pro rider who used midfoot at the world TT champs.
Interesting your rider struggles once terrain gets bumpy...do you think this is because he isn't full adapted to mid foot or some other reason.I have read that the your sprint can suffer a bit so may be a similar thing.
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14461
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Postby Ant. » Mon Jan 12, 2009 9:43 pm

I barely remember reading the inverse actually - it's better suited for sprints, as when you stomp down, your heel can't drop and absorb some of the force.

I don't buy into that really, just my own experience, as even under the most power I can produce, my calves can always "keep up".
Cervélo R3
Cervélo P3C
BT Blade
Ant.
 
Posts: 758
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2008 8:34 am
Location: Perth

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Jan 12, 2009 10:01 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:One thing I am hoping to do is to conduct aerodynamic field testing to assess whether there is any aerodynamic benefit to the change in position for my rider.

Certainly he seems to be able to produce the power equally well in either mode, although once the course gets variable terrain (e.g. Calga) then he struggles with mid-foot.


I can see that aerodynamically there would be advantages (possibly) as you are dropping you seat post and bars alot hence less frontal area...I suppose that wouldn't be an issue in tri...but UCI rules would stuff you on seat position...as most racers run their seat nose pretty close to the bb on their TT bikes that going mid foot and having to move your seat forward 25-45 mm would then make it illegal.Saying that I know of at least one pro rider who used midfoot at the world TT champs.
Interesting your rider struggles once terrain gets bumpy...do you think this is because he isn't full adapted to mid foot or some other reason.I have read that the your sprint can suffer a bit so may be a similar thing.
I don't know, he just finds it harder.

I can't imagine it would help your sprint, where you'll want all the leverage you can usefully use.

As for aerodynamics, well being lower to the ground doesn't change the frontal area, it just moves it lower to the ground. Indeed, remember that bars won't go down as much as the seat post, it may actually be worse.

I am making no assumption about which would be slicker through the air. That's why we test.

As for UCI rules, not everyone has their seat so far forward ;) It's not always all it's cracked up to be anyway.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3463
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Jan 13, 2009 12:45 am

See this is why we have you here Alex :wink:
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14461
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Postby Parrott » Tue Jan 13, 2009 7:54 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:As for UCI rules, not everyone has their seat so far forward ;) It's not always all it's cracked up to be anyway.


Bit OT sorry but I am a big hater of this stupid 5 cm rule. I don't have a power meter but find myself sliding forward on the seat on my tt bike when trying to grind out a good pace. I like tt's more than any other event in cycling so far and have spent a bit of time looking at photos of pros riding their tt machines. Also had a good look during the coverage of last years tt stage at the end of the TDF. Saw a lot of the riders sliding forward on the saddle sitting on their perineum. Don't know why they can't allow the nose of the saddle to be moved forward a bit, at least to level with the centre of the BB any way. It appears to me that many of the pros are sitting in that position anyway unfortunately due to the rules it is on the soft tissue of their perineum instead of their sit bones where they should be sitting
User avatar
Parrott
 
Posts: 2960
Joined: Wed Apr 18, 2007 8:45 pm

Postby MyCycling » Wed Jan 14, 2009 3:01 pm

Sorry, I'm just joining this thread and am assuming it was part of another earlier thread.

I must be honest, that unless you're doing this as a way to get around an injury, it makes me cringe to think you would set up your cleats like this.

This sort of cleat position would almost force you to square pedal and lose the finesse and ankle leverage gains that comes with a good pedaling style.

Check out Armstrong in this video of his famous attack on Hautacam. Check out around the 5.55 minute mark. Look how beautifully he's pedaling.

(I can't post the link, so search for "Lance Armstrong-Hautacam Attack")

I reckon that's the benchmark. :)
MyCycling
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:12 pm

Postby toolonglegs » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:17 pm

Yes,for me it is mainly in regards to a chronic achillies / heal problem.
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14461
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Postby MyCycling » Wed Jan 14, 2009 5:33 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Yes,for me it is mainly in regards to a chronic achillies / heal problem.


Sorry to hear that. I'm pretty sure Nick Gates (Lotto Pro and TDF rider) had a quite a few problems with his achillies. He seemed to find some solutions for it. If I remember, I'll ask him next time I see him and find out what he did to help and let you know.

It frickin' sucks to be held back by niggling stuff like that.
MyCycling
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:12 pm

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Jan 14, 2009 6:03 pm

I'm neither for nor against the use of mid-foot or arch cleat position. The evidence is equivocal. But then I'm allowed to have a foot in both camps since, by definition I have one cleat in the "normal" ball of foot position and one effectively under my "ankle" :lol:

It's not all that suitable for racing with highly variable power needs*, more suited to flatter TTs. And bike set up needs to be changed a lot, sometimes requiring a whole new frame geometry.

There is no published scientific evidence that it is any more or less efficient (there have been a number of studies), so riders who experiment tend to go by what they feel.

Certainly there are plenty of riders who go just as fast with either. That's because it simply emphasises the recruitment of the major muscle groups that drive us forward, and removes much of the need for the lower leg which essentally acts as a stabliser and doesn't contribute all that much to the power production anyway.

Pedal style is one thing, it's effectiveness that counts. Someone like Armstrong has both.

Then again, Susanne Ljungskog has won two world road race championships (in the sprint mind you) in 2002 & 3 with mid foot cleat position.
User avatar
Alex Simmons/RST
Expert
 
Posts: 3463
Joined: Fri May 02, 2008 3:51 pm

Postby MyCycling » Wed Jan 14, 2009 9:08 pm

Yeah.... you're probably right.

If it's just pure power, it's not going to matter. The only place I would struggle would be climbing where for at least partially it's about grace, and finesse and being able to "dance" up the climbs (especially if you're a pure climber).
MyCycling
 
Posts: 14
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 12:12 pm

Postby biomac » Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:48 am

MyCycling wrote:Yeah.... you're probably right.

If it's just pure power, it's not going to matter. The only place I would struggle would be climbing where for at least partially it's about grace, and finesse and being able to "dance" up the climbs (especially if you're a pure climber).


Pure leg force is not what makes your bike roll. Leg force is not what midfoot pedaling interferes with. What it interferes with is e n d u r a n c e, in other words, how long a rider can persevere in a considerably strenous workout on his bike. Strenous, this means at or exactly below anaerobic threshold which is where the majority of good bike races take place most of the time. Here a rider has an advantage which can be described as "10%". In other words, the advantage caused by midfoot cleats on reasonably good shoes is v e r y notable, it redefines an athletes performance and it is of course measurable beyond scientific doubt. Those who mount their cleats midfoot on a traditional cycling shoe miss out on considerable weight loss, comfort, efficiency and supreme ventilation. It's like say, riding on 36-spoke wheels instead of on system wheels - anyone went for a run with his cellphone in one hand? Anoying, isn't it? There's a lot of difference between riding something which feels like 'a sock with a stiff sole' or a heavy boot off the shelf. Better bike handling, aerodynamics and ventilation are not that important but it helps when it comes to peak performance, doesn't it? :wink: Besides, Evan Plews just won the 24 Hours of the Old Pueblo - a gruelling Mtb event in Kona(U.S.A.). He wore biomac shoes, his cleats were mounted midfoot - so no worries midfoot pedaling could diminish your performance during events where changes of speed are inevitable
A fond Hello to Western Australia and it's cyclists! I'd love to get back to where the Griffin West Tour once took place: Freemantle, Perth and all the other places! Maybe one day, Götz Heine (ex-cyclist, inventor and producer of biomac shoes, naturopath)
biomac
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Sat Feb 21, 2009 5:07 am

Next

Return to Road Biking

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: GAV!N



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit