speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

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speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby gtrainer » Sun Aug 14, 2011 6:56 pm

guys i have recently aquired a HASA flat bar roadie, some carbon parts, weight with tool kit etc is about 9.5kgs, 700/25 wheels,
i have had 2 rides with it at 45kms each ride and fairly flat rides, im averaging 26kmh over these rides, with no clipless pedals/shoes....

Im curious to know a round about figure, if I was to in the future upgrade to a lighter full roadie with pedals and shoes, what you think the speed advantage would be in km/h over that ride using the same energy?
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by BNA » Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:10 pm

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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby Nobody » Sun Aug 14, 2011 7:10 pm

Hard question as it really comes down to aerodynamic position and tyres. Clipless may make a smaller difference, but that depends on how much your current shoes and pedals compress in the down pedal stroke. This topic has been discussed/argued many times and I doubt you'll get a clear answer.

I've tried out comparing the extremes which are MTB with fat 60mm (2.35") low pressure (<40psi) slick tyres compared with a basic road bike setup and 23mm tyres to find about 4 Km/h on the flat. So your flat bar should be between 4 Km/h and close to 0 Km/h.

Many people change to drop bar bikes for other reasons - like avoiding numb hands - rather than just for speed.
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speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby queequeg » Sun Aug 14, 2011 10:39 pm

Totally unscientific example: on my daily commute over 27km, I average 24 to 26km/h on my flatbar hybrid. On my steel road bike with drop bars, I average 26 to 31km/h.

There is a lot of differences. Weight, riding position, gears (triple 9-speed vs double 10-speed), tyres etc. Too many variables for one single thing to make the difference. The only constant is me!
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby damhooligan » Sun Aug 14, 2011 11:00 pm

gtrainer wrote:guys i have recently aquired a HASA flat bar roadie, some carbon parts, weight with tool kit etc is about 9.5kgs, 700/25 wheels,
i have had 2 rides with it at 45kms each ride and fairly flat rides, im averaging 26kmh over these rides, with no clipless pedals/shoes....

Im curious to know a round about figure, if I was to in the future upgrade to a lighter full roadie with pedals and shoes, what you think the speed advantage would be in km/h over that ride using the same energy?


to many variables to answer that question really.

We (non proffesional athletes) do not posses the skill of pushing out consistantly the same energy output, when this is the case a different bike matters.
So from that point of vieuw I would say the difference is negliable.

But riding a different bike can give you an big mental boost, wich on it's own wil make you ride faster...
But it is not the bike that is faster but the rider... :wink:

26km/h is a good solid average, nothing wrong with that 8)

I used to commute daily on a flatbar with exactly the same average, once I had to commute on my lightweight and fast carbon roadie,
I expected to be heaps faster, but my average .....was exactly the same... :?
Reason, my commute is designed as transport, to get there and back, and speed is not important, hence the same outcome.

So it also depends what is the reason for riding?
speed is not everything. :D
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby sogood » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:30 am

gtrainer wrote:Im curious to know a round about figure, if I was to in the future upgrade to a lighter full roadie with pedals and shoes, what you think the speed advantage would be in km/h over that ride using the same energy?

The biggest variable will likely be you! In the future you'll be stronger and that's what makes the average really goes up. HW will help, but the engine counts a lot more.
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby gtrainer » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:56 am

thanks for the replies,

yeah the reason im asking is my neighbour asked me if i wanted to join their riding group, they do 50kms at 28-30kmph on their roadies,

I just wanted to try get a gauge on how far off i was, and wether or not eventually me getting a good roadie would make up the last few kmph needed to keep up with them....
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby sherlock » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:06 am

gtrainer wrote:yeah the reason im asking is my neighbour asked me if i wanted to join their riding group, they do 50kms at 28-30kmph on their roadies,


Probably not going to make a huge difference. A new bike might be a bit more compliant over 50-kilometres, and be a bit easier to push up hills/quicker to respond, but if you can't ride within 5-10% of that speed already over that distance then a 'proper' road bike won't save you.
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby gtrainer » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:12 am

cool, i guess i just need to get fitter and stronger LOL

thanks for all the replies so far
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby gclark8 » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:30 am

gtrainer wrote:thanks for the replies,

yeah the reason i'm asking is my neighbor asked me if i wanted to join their riding group, they do 50kms at 28-30kmph on their roadies,

I just wanted to try get a gauge on how far off i was, and whether or not eventually me getting a good roadie would make up the last few kph needed to keep up with them....
It is not recommended to mix bike styles in groups. Flat bar is more the non drafting group, the side projections are dangerous when riding shoulder to shoulder. :shock:
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby sherlock » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:31 am

gtrainer wrote:cool, i guess i just need to get fitter and stronger LOL

thanks for all the replies so far


Yeah, 25-30km/h over 50-kilometres isn't a "tough" ride by serious standards, but it's certainly a brisk pace for a rec/fitness rider, especially if you're just starting out (i.e. a lot of people would struggle to manage it).

If you can get close to that marker, and just feel the bike isn't as steady on downhills or at speed as you would like it to be, then you can upgrade. If you can step up to a $1500 bike by waiting, you're also going to get more upgrades across the board rather than swapping for a road bike that costs as much as your flat bar did.
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby sogood » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:47 am

gclark8 wrote:It is not recommended to mix bike styles in groups. Flat bar is more the non drafting group, the side projections are dangerous when riding shoulder to shoulder. :shock:

That has always been taught. But I think it's ok for flat bar riders to hang at the rear and not get into the mix. In any case, that'll be the best place for drafting... Until repeated traffic lights.
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby gtrainer » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:07 pm

yeah he made me aware that I couldnt join with a flat bar bike at this point, but offered me the olive branch if i was to get a drop bar roadie,

it was more to see if i could make up the speed difference on a decent drop bar with clipless shoes etc....

sounds like it wouldnt gain that much......based on equipment alone.
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby damhooligan » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:30 pm

sogood wrote:
gclark8 wrote:It is not recommended to mix bike styles in groups. Flat bar is more the non drafting group, the side projections are dangerous when riding shoulder to shoulder. :shock:

That has always been taught. But I think it's ok for flat bar riders to hang at the rear and not get into the mix. In any case, that'll be the best place for drafting... Until repeated traffic lights.


thats a bit daft...
A flatbar is not more dangerous then a dropbar...

i have done many groupp rides with my flatbar, no issues at all.
I personally think flatbars are perfectly capable of doing grouprides.
also alot of organised rides like atb and gvbr contain flatbars,
and that goes fine as well.

grouprides in general contain additional risk, due to speed and riding close together,
but type of bike is not the reason for added risk.....
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby open roader » Mon Aug 15, 2011 5:04 pm

gtrainer wrote:if I was to in the future upgrade to a lighter full roadie with pedals and shoes, what you think the speed advantage would be in km/h over that ride using the same energy?


Ultimately it's not about the bikes or associated equipment - it's about the 'engine' pushing the bike/s.

I'd guestimate that given you can already push your flatbar bike at 26km/hr over 45km - if you were to get onto a lighter drop bar bike, and take advantage of the better aerodynamics and lesser rolling resistance you would be close enough to 30km/hr over the same 45km rides you are currently doing.

I ride ride mostly solo and found riding far more exciting at speeds of 30km/kr + so after a year of pushing a heavy MTB on the bitumen and on gravel roads, I rewarded myself with a road bike.

That little bit of extra, instant speed gain going from MTB to a roadie back then really was a huge motivator for me to improve my riding fitness and technique to a point where I can now ride the MTB faster over the same routes as when I first rode the road bike.

Everyone needs motivation - it comes in may shapes and forms..........
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby gtrainer » Mon Aug 15, 2011 8:56 pm

great last post there,

i am new to cycling seriously, so i have along way to go, im unfit, used to smoke up until 4 weeks ago, and other than golf, have not done any "active" sports for years....

When i got married 5 years ago, I was 82kgs (6foot2), now im 104kgs!

Im hoping, with the increased fitness, lower weight (aiming toget back to 85kgs), and finally later on a drop bar road bike, i can get my average up above 30kmph
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby sogood » Mon Aug 15, 2011 9:55 pm

damhooligan wrote:thats a bit daft...
A flatbar is not more dangerous then a dropbar...

I think there are rules and there are reasons. This is one that's unlikely to change for the serious roadie bunches.

Objectively speaking, the wider bar, especially those with bull horns can be an issue in a tight bunch. Riding at the tail is the commonly accepted solution.
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby lethoso » Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:06 pm

gtrainer wrote:it was more to see if i could make up the speed difference on a decent drop bar with clipless shoes etc....


desperately trying to stay on the back of a group is a good way to get fit!
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby sogood » Mon Aug 15, 2011 10:37 pm

lethoso wrote:desperately trying to stay on the back of a group is a good way to get fit!

Enjoy the elastic! :mrgreen:
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby damhooligan » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:03 pm

sogood wrote:
damhooligan wrote:thats a bit daft...
A flatbar is not more dangerous then a dropbar...

I think there are rules and there are reasons. This is one that's unlikely to change for the serious roadie bunches.

Objectively speaking, the wider bar, especially those with bull horns can be an issue in a tight bunch. Riding at the tail is the commonly accepted solution.


reason is simple ;
A flatbar is not euro cool, and has a slow image, that's it, has nothing to do with the wider bars, that's just an excuse.
The difference is what 10 cm... :?:
I have not been in a bunch where a rider comes that close to my handlebars, regardless of what bike I ride.
And if that would happen, then there is something else wrong..

If they really are a bunch of serious riders, they should also be a bunch of seriously skilled riders,
and avoiding handlebars should be easy peasy... , no ??
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:07 pm

The issue with the bars in a group ride is if the bars rub against each other, drop bars slide across each other more easily than flat bars and hence the riders are less likely to have an off.

Back on topic

To be honest, the speed figures you have described are quite pedestrian, I would suggest that the primary opportunity is to increase power output over the improved aerodymanics of a drop bar bike.

Start with the clip in pedals and shoes, do lots of training and upgrade to the roadie as your speed improves
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby sogood » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:12 pm

damhooligan wrote:reason is simple ;
A flatbar is not euro cool, and has a slow image, that's it, has nothing to do with the wider bars, that's just an excuse.
The difference is what 10 cm... :?:

10cm is significant in a tight bunch, along with the elbow position of flat bar riders. Euro cool is a subjective component, but the reason has a practical and objective component too. And yes, I have been on bunch rides where bars get real close. As a matter of fact, a good energy efficient bunch is one that rides in a tight formation.
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby damhooligan » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:28 pm

sogood wrote:
damhooligan wrote:reason is simple ;
A flatbar is not euro cool, and has a slow image, that's it, has nothing to do with the wider bars, that's just an excuse.
The difference is what 10 cm... :?:

10cm is significant in a tight bunch, along with the elbow position of flat bar riders. Euro cool is a subjective component, but the reason has a practical and objective component too. And yes, I have been on bunch rides where bars get real close. As a matter of fact, a good energy efficient bunch is one that rides in a tight formation.


what if the h-bars where 10 cm shorter, would it then be acceptable.. ? :mrgreen:

I agree in a tight bunch 10 cm is a lot, so the type of bar makes a difference,
but you won't ride that close without experience, and experienced riders can avoid h-bars surely.. :shock:
That and we wear helmets for a reason... :mrgreen:

mikesbytes wrote:The issue with the bars in a group ride is if the bars rub against each other, drop bars slide across each other more easily than flat bars and hence the riders are less likely to have an off.


Drop bars have also 'hooks' at the bottom , and they can also create an 'off'.
Always be cautious no matter what type of bar you have. :wink:
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby mikesbytes » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:36 pm

mikesbytes wrote:The issue with the bars in a group ride is if the bars rub against each other, drop bars slide across each other more easily than flat bars and hence the riders are less likely to have an off.


Drop bars have also 'hooks' at the bottom , and they can also create an 'off'.
Always be cautious no matter what type of bar you have. :wink:[/quote]

Drop bars do not hook each other

For the record I have personally tested the clashing of handlebars on numerous occasions, between drop bars and I have never been knocked off because of that
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby damhooligan » Mon Aug 15, 2011 11:44 pm

mikesbytes wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:The issue with the bars in a group ride is if the bars rub against each other, drop bars slide across each other more easily than flat bars and hence the riders are less likely to have an off.


Drop bars have also 'hooks' at the bottom , and they can also create an 'off'.
Always be cautious no matter what type of bar you have. :wink:


Drop bars do not hook each other

For the record I have personally tested the clashing of handlebars on numerous occasions, between drop bars and I have never been knocked off because of that[/quote]

I have heard stories that it happened, doesn't make it true, but nothing is impossible... :D
Especially if you have it set-up like this;

Image
http://5metresofdevelopment.blogspot.co ... -bars.html


But enough digressing, back to the topic.. :D
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Re: speed difference flat bar roadie to roadie

Postby foo on patrol » Tue Aug 16, 2011 7:08 am

Going to clip ins is worth 3/4khr extra and I have seen handle bars come together on the track and bring both down. Maybe harder these days as the shape has changed a bit to my days of racing. :wink:
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