Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby kosh » Fri Mar 30, 2012 6:58 pm

sogood wrote:Do the benefits of singles really justify all the extra work? :roll:

I was skeptical but now having tried them, that's a "hell yes"! The feel of tubular tyres on the road is remarkably different. Most noticeable for me was the sense of control when taking a criterium corner at speed. More than makes up for three days of tedious gluing.
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby lynskey_rider » Fri Mar 30, 2012 10:24 pm

(AT) foo, I have heard of and seen bostik being used before. How do you find it?
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Mar 31, 2012 7:51 am

I never rolled one using the Contact Cement but did roll one using Bostick but in fairness, it was in a sprint coming out of the home bend when I had a rider go down in front of me and I bunny hopped him but landed with the front crossed up. :mrgreen:

If you take the time to have an even coverage of glue on the rim, then you're not going to have problems. It's when you shortcut or rush things where things go pair shaped and you get a whole lot of hurt happening. :lol: (I raced at the Aces level which was above A-grade so it wasn't slow poke racing.)

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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby redcorpsjames » Mon Apr 02, 2012 9:21 pm

How does the tubular tape go in comparison to the cement. Have both on order for cheap, not sure what i am going to try?
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby lynskey_rider » Mon Apr 02, 2012 11:46 pm

James, personally I wouldn't bother with the tape. IMO, the tape is rather dangerous. The tub glue is by far superior. It may be a little messy and tedious for a first timer, but wrll worth the effort for the added safety as far as im concerned
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby foo on patrol » Mon Apr 09, 2012 3:45 pm

I used the tape only on my road wheels and never had a problem. Put them on with water on the tape and centred and then pumped up to 120psi.

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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Feb 19, 2013 7:29 am

Good a thread as any to re-invigorate :D .
How often would you re-glue a tubular if isn't used often?. I have a 19mm tub on my front TT rim, wouldn't have ridden it for 6 months ( last TT was in September... next will be in April / May ... just 5k prologues
)... would you reglue it?.
It has been sitting in a dark dry basement.
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby brentono » Tue Feb 19, 2013 9:57 am

Be1 wrote: I test the adhesion of my tubs by deflating them so they just have enough air to hold there shape and then try and peel the tyre off, if it peels away from the rim without your thumbs hurting or if you can see dry rim glue it again.


TLL
Think Be1 sounds right with this method. You need to check them, I would think.

Personally, sold a set of wheels that I re-glued recently. This method worked for me.
As you probably know, a good smear on the rim, and on the tire, and working the two surfaces
together, with a side-to-side move, works, then half inflate, to allow to set overnight, then you
can fully inflate, next day.

The mention of Shellac, earlier, is OK for Track, only. And is was interesting that L.R. had
experience with Carbon rims, as I don't. Shellac needs attention, and fairly constant, reworks.
But, great for a solid smooth ride (on the Track) It was back in the 'old days' :)

Just my 2c
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby bomber » Tue Feb 19, 2013 10:01 am

If it ain't broke...

In all seriousness I don't think there is a need to unless you have a cause for concern i.e. the tyre has visibly aged etc
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:59 pm

Cheers, by the sound of it they should be fine then... they hardly get used for 10 months of the year and when they do they hardly get used anyway if you know what I mean. It is such a tiny little tyre that I am happy to leave it where it is as it still looks very well glued, not by me though, club president glued them up for me.
I am going through my first glue up experience at the moment... hopefully will be racing a crit Sunday on tubulars for the first time :D .
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby foo on patrol » Wed Feb 20, 2013 6:46 am

TLL, they should be all good, as I had them on some of my wheels for two years at times. Including my finals wheels :wink:

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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:08 pm

Glued up my new wheels... did it the way zipp youtube video showed... 1 layer on the tyre, 3 on the rim 24 hours apart... leaving the last for 4 or 5 minutes before putting the tyre on ( prestretched for a day or so ). Was so easy I thought I might have got it wrong :lol: ... didn't have to straighten the tyre out or anything.
1st impressions on tubulars... well hard to say as they are also a lot stiffer wheels than I have been on since selling my C50's. 58/88... rolls nice, certainly not as comfortable as the 25's I have been on. Give them a good test on Sunday on a nice little 70km crit with a tram line mid one of the corners... if it is dry that is. They are forecasting snow.
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby brit_in_oz » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:07 pm

foo on patrol wrote:I never rolled one using the Contact Cement but did roll one using Bostick but in fairness, it was in a sprint coming out of the home bend when I had a rider go down in front of me and I bunny hopped him but landed with the front crossed up. :mrgreen:

If you take the time to have an even coverage of glue on the rim, then you're not going to have problems. It's when you shortcut or rush things where things go pair shaped and you get a whole lot of hurt happening. :lol: (I raced at the Aces level which was above A-grade so it wasn't slow poke racing.)

Foo


Please, please, please don't use Bostik/Selleys or anyone other 'contact adhesive' to glue tubs thats sold for DIY. I work as a technical manager developing adhesives and have worked making/developing these products for over 10 years. Without going into a comprehensive chemistry lesson, the type of contact adhesive you get at Bunnings are chloroprene rubbers dissolved in solvent with a phenolic resin and magnesium oxide cross linker dissolved in toluene. As the solvent evaporates the rubber solidifies and goes through a crystallization process. Its in this time that it exhibits auto-adhesion (i.e. will bond to itself). After that time has passed its not really an adhesive any more, its a solidified rubber with stuff all adhesion. It won't form a reusable bond either, as the other components form a cross linking matrix preventing rebonding - effectively its one shot. Contact adhesives like this have a Bell shaped curve of adhesion, typically between 15-30 minutes after they become touch dry they show the greatest bond strength, before or after this time the bond is degraded, and can be a fraction of the maximum.

Compare this to (say) Vittoria cement, these are non cross linking pressure sensitive adhesives. These work by being permanently tacky, which is why when you pull one off a rim you can put a new tyre on it and the remaining adhesive will reform a bond. Use the right adhesive for the job and use the right amount and the chance of roll off is low/zero under standard conditions. It also explains why why tubs can fail on descents when carbon rims get hot, PSA adhesives (pressure sensitive adhesives) are thermally sensitive, that is they will get thinner as the temperature increases, and with decreasing viscosity the bond strength is reduced allowing the tyre to move when excessive force is applied. As it cools the viscosity increases once more and the bond strength increases again. A Bostik type contact adhesive is cross linked so doesn't thin down, but it will fail suddenly once a critical bond temperature is exceeded (depending on formula / chloroprene rubber grade used, this can be as low as 60-65 degrees or as high as 85 degrees or so.)

Well thats a brief explanation...the moral is to use the right adhesive for the job, don't be a tight arse and use the wrong product as it could cost you a nuked bike and body in the long run.
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:01 am

Well Brit_In_Oz this is what I used in the 70s/80s along with many others and there was never a problem regluing back onto the rims. I tried the so called proper glue (Clement) and was no happy with it. :P

Had nothing to do with being a tight arse it is what worked and worked really well for me at the time. :wink: If they have changed the composition of the glue since then, well I don't know but I used it on Clement No1s and No3s which were hand made silk. Never got any deterioration of the silk and the were still good to go after restitching. Ran them at 150psi and got a full season to two seasons of racing out of them. :?

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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Feb 23, 2013 8:24 am

I use Vittoria Mastik One on my carbon rims. Works very well (it's designed for the job). I apply with a cheap paint brush - makes getting nice even coats on rim and tub easier.

TLL - pump them up lightly and if you can't easily move the tyre away from the rim, you are good to go. Assuming tyre itself is in good condition. One thing to check is sometimes tyres can come away from their rim tape.

I glue mine such that removal can be a bit of a fight and usually means tyre replacement. It can be a bit of a tedious job, but I prefer the security. Some like to leave small patch unglued or lightly glued to enable them to remove more easily.

From a rolling resistance perspective, poor (over and under) glueing can increase rolling resistance significantly.

Use the right glue, and learn to glue properly. It's not hard to do, but plan ahead and take your time. Last minute glue jobs are not recommended.
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby brit_in_oz » Sat Feb 23, 2013 9:04 pm

foo on patrol wrote:Well Brit_In_Oz this is what I used in the 70s/80s along with many others and there was never a problem regluing back onto the rims. I tried the so called proper glue (Clement) and was no happy with it. :P

Had nothing to do with being a tight arse it is what worked and worked really well for me at the time. :wink: If they have changed the composition of the glue since then, well I don't know but I used it on Clement No1s and No3s which were hand made silk. Never got any deterioration of the silk and the were still good to go after restitching. Ran them at 150psi and got a full season to two seasons of racing out of them. :?

Foo


Hi,
1) If you were in the 80's you would be bonding to an aluminium rim, not carbon, hence have lower heat build up, which may explain why you have not experienced failures. I never mentioned deterioration, i am talking about bond strength and failure, nothing else. You *can* get a bond with them, obviously, but I would never, ever, use it.

2) Yes the composition has changed, in the 70/80's they would use a Dow chemicals grade such as Neoprene WRT as the base, or other quality rubber base. Now Chloroprenes come from China quite often. They have huge amounts of variability in viscosity and crystallisation rates. You can make a batch one day and then the next day it comes out totally differently in both viscosity and crystallisation rates. For DIY it doesnt matter too much but they are certainly inconsistent in performance.

You can do a simple test on timber, leave it 24 hours after glueing and see which adhesive will bond. Contact adhesives will not take, or barely hold together as they have lost the ability to adhere to themselves. A true tub glue bonds on pressure application. Same thing happens on your wheel as the bonding mechanism of a contact isn't designed for that application. If you want to play Russian roulette with your life go ahead, but I will stick with a product designed for the application.
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Feb 24, 2013 4:56 am

Grrrr... haven't had a puncture for months. 180km on a $100 tubular and it already has a slow leak :cry: . No time to glue up a new one before tomorrow I think.
I have a spare tubular, I will put a layer of glue on the base tape tonight, but if I give it a good 12 hours to dry, then put it onto the wheel with another thin layer on the rim left to dry till tacky. It will only be on the wheel a couple of hours before I race ( ambient temp will be around -2 to zero )... what do you think?.
I might try a bomb first as I don't these are repairable.
Much easier just to chuck my pneus back on the rear.
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Feb 24, 2013 5:15 pm

Doesn't look like I need to worry anymore... might have been a valve extender working lose :oops: .
Anyway I have plenty of time to sort it out in the end as I think my race will be cancelled today due to white stuff :evil: .
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby open roader » Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:50 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Doesn't look like I need to worry anymore... might have been a valve extender working lose


I recently had this happen on one of my tubs to both my disdain and confusion - used the slightest hint of Loctite 222 on the base thread, no more slow leak :D
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:34 pm

I just cranked it up a bit tighter ... can't be bothered taking it off to loctite it or thread tape it. Should be fine.
Race was cancelled anyway due to snow and subzero temps. Should have warmed up a bit for next weekend... although there's hills next weekend :| .
BTW ... if the tyres are vulcanized, not stitched, can they be repaired ? ... maybe not by me but by a pro.
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby open roader » Sun Feb 24, 2013 8:45 pm

toolonglegs wrote:BTW ... if the tyres are vulcanized, not stitched, can they be repaired ? ... maybe not by me but by a pro.


I expect someone with the necessary skills could perform a repair dependant upon where in the carcas the damage is. However, being the stinking, capo wasteful consumer git that I am; I'd not want to ride on a repaired tubular for the sake of (in my case) an AU $67 replacement tyre......
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Feb 24, 2013 9:40 pm

I am probably thinking more cyclocross tyres than road ... they don't wear much, I have had mine for the last two seasons and they still look like new.
I found this guy http://tubular-repairs.com/ in the UK, I am sure we have the same here in France.
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Re: Tyre rolled off Tubular Rim through corner

Postby toppity » Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:03 am

It's been years since I've glued on a single. After your success TLL I might give it another go.I have used Stan's no leaks in my tubulars with really good success. I've punctured during 2 races and the tubs have 'self healed' allowing me to finish. You loose some pressure but not enough to stop you.

There used to be a bloke in Melbourne who fixed tubulars, Jack McGowan (SP?), anyone ever associated with the CCCC would have known him. Sadly he has passed and I don't think anyone is around to do the job these days. With my last puncture I thought I would fix it myself, but I couldn't even get the backing tape off in one piece, so in the bin it went. :?

Good luck finding someone over there.
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