Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
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Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby twizzle » Sun Jan 01, 2012 8:01 am
Just of out interest... how long should people expect a carbon rim to last? My alloy training rim lasted less than two years before the sidewall split, carbon rims wear under braking as well - should people expect them to last forever? Perhaps ASBB's front rim was too thin to handle the heat?
Edit: damn you, auto-correct!
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby Nobody » Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:04 am
Yes I've often thought about this. That's why I use high spoke count alloy wheels.jcjordan wrote:...you also need to think about how you break when using carbon.
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Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby herzog » Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:12 am
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby Nobody » Sun Jan 01, 2012 9:32 am
I don't think this enters into the equation when most people consider carbon wheels.twizzle wrote:Just of out interest... how long should people [expect] a carbon rim to last?
You'd benefit more than most from a front disc conversions in durability and safety.twizzle wrote:My alloy training rim lasted less than two years before the sidewall split...
Good point. I doubt any manufacturers of carbon brake track wheels would want to release data on the average braking life of their wheels. Might put a dent in their sales.twizzle wrote:...carbon rims wear under braking as well - should people expect them to last forever? Perhaps ASBB's front rim was too thin to handle the heat?
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby pawnii » Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:13 pm
yes/no?
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby aeroslave » Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:24 pm
herzog wrote:Bring on hydros for road. It's 2012.
+100
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby notwal » Sun Jan 01, 2012 5:54 pm
I take it you mean discs.aeroslavebigbelly wrote:herzog wrote:Bring on hydros for road. It's 2012.
+100
I think that discs, although they may provide an effective solution, are a work around. Rim callipers remain the most mechanically elegant solution to braking for a road bike. Rim braking just has to be improved. The problems of heat dissipation and wet rims should be and are being tackled by manufacturers.
Easton make a song and dance about the heat resistance of the resin in their composites. I don't know how good it is but I have no doubt good solutions will emerge. The aircraft industry depends on the stuff.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby Nobody » Sun Jan 01, 2012 6:19 pm
The manufacturers are tackling the problems by releasing disc brakes soon for road use. I think the bicycle is the last (light) vehicle I know of that uses rim brakes. If there was a better solution than discs, it should have been applied in some other form of light vehicle by now.notwal wrote:I take it you mean discs.aeroslavebigbelly wrote:herzog wrote:Bring on hydros for road. It's 2012.
+100
I think that discs, although they may provide an effective solution, are a work around. Rim callipers remain the most mechanically elegant solution to braking for a road bike. Rim braking just has to be improved. The problems of heat dissipation and wet rims should be and are being tackled by manufacturers.
I still find rim brakes useful as rear wheel brakes where less braking power is required and braking performance is less critical.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby Mulger bill » Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:56 am
London Boy 29/12/2011
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby jules21 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:25 am
shaun, that's not really that big a problem - if you're willing to pay the weight penalty of disc brakes, then what's an extra 10 spokes?Mulger bill wrote:Problem with discs on a roadie is that trendy radial spoking is a no no
i don't see discs taking off on road bikes. but then, it's dangerous making those sorts of predictions
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby sumgy » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:45 am
I would blame the fact that you are using 4 year old heavily used carbon rims on the failure before I blamed the well respected Swiss Stop pads.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby rkelsen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 11:50 am
Agreed. What's the point of spending megabucks on lightweight carbon rims, and then handicapping them with discs?jules21 wrote:i don't see discs taking off on road bikes.
The issue discussed in this thread could be avoided by using rims with an alloy braking surface. Of course, there would be a weight penalty... Measurable in tens of grams, not the (several) hundreds of grams discs would add.
It's also dangerous to say stuff like this around here.jules21 wrote:but then, it's dangerous making those sorts of predictions
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby jcjordan » Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:02 pm
My Bouwmeester White Dot (the orginal version) 38mm clinchers are now 3 years old and still going strong. They have alot of km's on them and they still have their integrity around the breaking zone. They have started to yellow there from nearly a constant use of yellow swiss stops but otherwise no decernable wear.twizzle wrote:Carbon fibre composite components don't accept/dissipate heat, which is why the pads have to be 'melt proof'. Just like the brakes on a car, you can't "ride the brakes", you have to get the pads off the rim to let them cool down.
Just of out interest... how long should people expect a carbon rim to last? My alloy training rim lasted less than two years before the sidewall split, carbon rims wear under braking as well - should people expect them to last forever? Perhaps ASBB's front rim was too thin to handle the heat?
Edit: damn you, auto-correct!
Veni, Vidi, Vespa -- I Came, I Saw, I Rode Home
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby Nobody » Mon Jan 02, 2012 1:59 pm
I suspect the future will prove you wrong.rkelsen wrote:Agreed. What's the point of spending megabucks on lightweight carbon rims, and then handicapping them with discs?jules21 wrote:i don't see discs taking off on road bikes.
The issue discussed in this thread could be avoided by using rims with an alloy braking surface. Of course, there would be a weight penalty... Measurable in tens of grams, not the (several) hundreds of grams discs would add.It's also dangerous to say stuff like this around here.jules21 wrote:but then, it's dangerous making those sorts of predictions
http://www.canyon.com/_en/technology/project68.html
http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewt ... &start=600
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby rkelsen » Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:04 pm
That'd be "Project 5.8" with rim brakes.Nobody wrote:http://www.canyon.com/_en/technology/project68.html
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby DaveOZ » Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:04 pm
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby Nobody » Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:09 pm
You can't say that for sure and I highly doubt it. As DaveOZ said above, once the braking surface and extra associated bulk is removed from the rims, the wheels should be lighter where it counts, on the outer edge. Also since UCI has still got the current weight limit, it easily leaves an opportunity for discs to be added without adding weight.rkelsen wrote:That'd be "Project 5.8" with rim brakes.Nobody wrote:http://www.canyon.com/_en/technology/project68.html
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby jules21 » Mon Jan 02, 2012 2:15 pm
i had forgotten about this. i think discs can work in this context - but the attraction is likely to be less for riders of non-UCI weight weenie bikes. i just don't find rim brakes to be that important - how often do you really need max. performance from them?Nobody wrote:Also since UCI has still got the current weight limit, it easily leaves an opportunity for discs to be added without adding weight.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby Nobody » Mon Jan 02, 2012 3:02 pm
Remember the Goodyear ad on TV? "If it only saves you once a year...". To me, it's not about averages or how often, it's about that one time you're caught out in the rain and you have a car pull out in front of you while on a decent. For the sake of a few hundred dollars and some weight, I'll be less likely to need to reflect on the worst case scenario while lying in a hospital bed.jules21 wrote:i just don't find rim brakes to be that important - how often do you really need max. performance from them?
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Failr
Postby sumgy » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:19 pm
Long term hydro user on my MTB's but IMO the additional braking power that these will bring to a roadie will be balanced out by the increased lack of grip that a road tyre has compared to an MTB tyre, leading to possible increased sliding and stopping distance.Nobody wrote:Remember the Goodyear ad on TV? "If it only saves you once a year...". To me, it's not about averages or how often, it's about that one time you're caught out in the rain and you have a car pull out in front of you while on a decent. For the sake of a few hundred dollars and some weight, I'll be less likely to need to reflect on the worst case scenario while lying in a hospital bed.jules21 wrote:i just don't find rim brakes to be that important - how often do you really need max. performance from them?
Only crash I ever had in the rain on my roadie was due to a slide around a sharp bend.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby DaveOZ » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:37 pm
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby sumgy » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:45 pm
So you have used disc brakes with 23mm tyres?DaveOZ wrote:Can't blame the brakes for lack of control by the user. I find discs much easier to modulate than rims.
I dont find either easier or harder.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Fail
Postby DaveOZ » Mon Jan 02, 2012 5:47 pm
Yes, I have discs on my commuter.sumgy wrote:So you have used disc brakes with 23mm tyres?DaveOZ wrote:Can't blame the brakes for lack of control by the user. I find discs much easier to modulate than rims.
I dont find either easier or harder.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Failr
Postby Nobody » Mon Jan 02, 2012 6:04 pm
I've had a front disc (BB7, 185mm) on my road/CX bike since about March 2010. Seems fine to me. Never felt overpowered. Never crashed a road bike yet.sumgy wrote:Long term hydro user on my MTB's but IMO the additional braking power that these will bring to a roadie will be balanced out by the increased lack of grip that a road tyre has compared to an MTB tyre, leading to possible increased sliding and stopping distance.
Only crash I ever had in the rain on my roadie was due to a slide around a sharp bend.
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Re: Warning: Swisstop Yellow Failr
Postby sumgy » Mon Jan 02, 2012 7:23 pm
mmmkay.Nobody wrote:I've had a front disc (BB7, 185mm) on my road/CX bike since about March 2010. Seems fine to me. Never felt overpowered. Never crashed a road bike yet.sumgy wrote:Long term hydro user on my MTB's but IMO the additional braking power that these will bring to a roadie will be balanced out by the increased lack of grip that a road tyre has compared to an MTB tyre, leading to possible increased sliding and stopping distance.
Only crash I ever had in the rain on my roadie was due to a slide around a sharp bend.
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