Titanium Road Bikes
- Le Velo
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby Le Velo » Sun Nov 11, 2012 8:09 pm
You could be in for a warranty replacement maybe ? Had the same issue / argument with Trek about a year ago with 2 cracks in the bottom bracket, rear stay and fork where the lugs are fused with the carbon
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby Nobody » Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:35 am
There is an unfounded popularised belief that carbon does not fatigue. But there is evidence it does.Comedian wrote:Well I don't want to start a carbon hating thread in here. However, I've noticed that my current bike is a little flexible when I stand on the pedals. I've noted several times that over big bumps it flexes significantly and just thought this was a good thing. Anyway, today I stood there with the brakes on and leant on one pedal a bit. We noted that not only does the carbon crank bend, but the whole frame does an impression of a fish. I can see the whole thing bending and people looking from the front claim to see it twist alarmingly. Now I'm not going to panic, about this as...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_fibre" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Ti and steel will only last long-term if built strong enough for the rider's weight. It really comes down to getting something (at least) slightly overbuilt (depending on the quality of the build) if you want it to last.Despite its high initial strength-to-weight ratio, one structural limitation of CFRP is its lack of a fatigue endurance limit. As such, failure cannot be theoretically ruled out from a high enough number of stress cycles. By contrast, steel and certain other structural metals and alloys do have an estimable fatigue endurance limit. Because of the complex failure modes of such composites, the fatigue failure properties of CFRP are difficult to predict. As a result, when utilizing CFRP for critical cyclic-loading applications, engineers may need to employ considerable strength safety margins to provide suitable component reliability over a sufficiently long service life.
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby Comedian » Mon Nov 12, 2012 11:23 am
I just went down and compared to my bike to a current defy advanced and while on the same test it still flexed I would say it moved probably only half as much.
I really doubt I'm going to ever be able to say whether it has gotten worse with age or whether its just a dead fish frame.
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby Nobody » Mon Nov 12, 2012 12:47 pm
The good thing about metals is they generally will have the same feel/ride/flex over their life span. I've got a Giant CrMo MTB frame I bought in approx. 1991 which doesn't feel any less stiff than it was new.
- clackers
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby clackers » Tue Nov 13, 2012 1:59 pm
Well, let's put some numbers to it, then:Nobody wrote: There is an unfounded popularised belief that carbon does not fatigue. But there is evidence it does.
http://www.freewingmasts.co.uk/fwmtabl1.htm
It's all relative, but after a million stress cycles that stainless steel is down to less than half its original strength, the aluminium alloy to a third.
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby Nobody » Tue Nov 13, 2012 2:52 pm
Thanks. Not a surprising result from a manufacturer of carbon masts. There appears to be results, but no link to the methodology. It's like Calfee with its "Technical White Paper" on carbon frames, which has been discussed before.clackers wrote:Well, let's put some numbers to it, then:Nobody wrote: There is an unfounded popularised belief that carbon does not fatigue. But there is evidence it does.
http://www.freewingmasts.co.uk/fwmtabl1.htm
It's all relative, but after a million stress cycles that stainless steel is down to less than half its original strength, the aluminium alloy to a third.
http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewt ... 8&p=832549" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Le Velo
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby Le Velo » Tue Nov 13, 2012 4:26 pm
The story behind the bikes ..... maybe a little OT but still cool
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby __PG__ » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:34 am
Out of interest, what benefits do you feel from the HED rims and do you think they are caused by the rim width or the different spoking patterns?Disciple wrote: I changed the wheels to a set of hand built HED Belgium C2 rims on Chris King R45 hubs as the roads up here in the mountains are anything but smooth. The wheels are another story, suffice to say I believe these are every bit as good as the Fulcrums.
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby warthog1 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 11:55 am
Are you still at it NobodyNobody wrote:Thanks. Not a surprising result from a manufacturer of carbon masts. There appears to be results, but no link to the methodology. It's like Calfee with its "Technical White Paper" on carbon frames, which has been discussed before.clackers wrote:Well, let's put some numbers to it, then:Nobody wrote: There is an unfounded popularised belief that carbon does not fatigue. But there is evidence it does.
http://www.freewingmasts.co.uk/fwmtabl1.htm
It's all relative, but after a million stress cycles that stainless steel is down to less than half its original strength, the aluminium alloy to a third.
http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewt ... 8&p=832549" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
This section does not cite any references or sources. (June 2012)
From that highly credentialed wikipedia link that you chose to cite as evidence of CF's fatigue limit
I saw this bit in it too
Carbon-fiber-reinforced polymer (CFRP) has over the past two decades become an increasingly notable material used in structural engineering applications. Studied in an academic context as to its potential benefits in construction, it has also proved itself cost-effective in a number of field applications strengthening concrete, masonry, steel, cast iron, and timber structures. Its use in industry can be either for retrofitting to strengthen an existing structure or as an alternative reinforcing (or prestressing material) instead of steel from the outset of a project.
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby __PG__ » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:22 pm
Or so I've been told.
- Comedian
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby Comedian » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:23 pm
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby Nobody » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:27 pm
You'll have to be more specific as I don't know what you're rattling on about. Whatever it is though, reference No. 3 at the bottom of the page should cover it (which I'm sure you've seen before).warthog1 wrote:Are you still at it Nobody
This section does not cite any references or sources. (June 2012)
From that highly credentialed wikipedia link that you chose to cite as evidence of CF's fatigue limit
And?warthog1 wrote:I saw this bit in it too
Carbon-fiber-reinforced polymer (CFRP) has over the past two decades become an increasingly notable material used in structural engineering applications. Studied in an academic context as to its potential benefits in construction, it has also proved itself cost-effective in a number of field applications strengthening concrete, masonry, steel, cast iron, and timber structures. Its use in industry can be either for retrofitting to strengthen an existing structure or as an alternative reinforcing (or prestressing material) instead of steel from the outset of a project.
Believe it or not, I actually read the article. I'm not trying to hide that CF has it's uses, just don't expect it to be long term fatigue fee when built into a bike frame.
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby Nobody » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:47 pm
Well I hope you get your money's worth out of it. More likely to than spending the same amount on a carbon frame IMO.Comedian wrote:Well after much agonizing I've joined the Baum waiting list.
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby Rich-Ti » Wed Nov 14, 2012 12:49 pm
- Le Velo
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby Le Velo » Wed Nov 14, 2012 1:07 pm
Welcome to the clubComedian wrote:Well after much agonizing I've joined the Baum waiting list.
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby warthog1 » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:08 pm
End of useful life/recyclingNobody wrote:You'll have to be more specific as I don't know what you're rattling on about. Whatever it is though, reference No. 3 at the bottom of the page should cover it (which I'm sure you've seen before).
This section does not cite any references or sources. (June 2012)
Despite its high initial strength-to-weight ratio, one structural limitation of CFRP is its lack of a fatigue endurance limit. As such, failure cannot be theoretically ruled out from a high enough number of stress cycles
As you used that "article" to illustrate that carbon is susceptible to fatigue failure, i thought it pertinent to point out that it's author could have pulled it out of thin air.
Just being objective or was that objectionable
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby clackers » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:17 pm
Well, I did third-year Materials Engineering at uni. All other things being equal, carbon fibre will be better at fatigue resistance than either of those materials. I'd be interested if you can find anything that says differently.Nobody wrote: Not a surprising result from a manufacturer of carbon masts. There appears to be results, but no link to the methodology.
PS I have a foot in both camps, with a carbon roadie and a 'Steel is Real' one. Mixed marriages are so interesting!
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby Nobody » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:24 pm
Oh, I see it now.warthog1 wrote:As you used that "article" to illustrate that carbon is susceptible to fatigue failure, i thought it pertinent to point out that it's author could have pulled it out of thin air.
Just being objective or was that objectionable
Also I was not saying it was susceptible to fatigue failure (although it probably is) just fatigue, which the mast link shows anyway (although optimistically as expected from a manufacturer).
- clackers
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby clackers » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:30 pm
Well, how do you know? You're the one wanting hard facts and figures. Show us they're false or optimistic!Nobody wrote: although optimistically as expected from a manufacturer
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby __PG__ » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:38 pm
I've been in it since the middle of July. I hope you aren't in a hurry.Comedian wrote:Well after much agonizing I've joined the Baum waiting list.
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby Nobody » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:38 pm
I've owned a CF bike in the past too. The other two materials being SS and Al, I'm in agreement. If I remember correctly SS is considered one of the most brittle steels (for lack of another good descriptor). Remember the below thread? Not too confidence inspiring.clackers wrote:Well, I did third-year Materials Engineering at uni. All other things being equal, carbon fibre will be better at fatigue resistance than either of those materials. I'd be interested if you can find anything that says differently.
PS I have a foot in both camps, with a carbon roadie and a 'Steel is Real' one. Mixed marriages are so interesting!
http://www.bicycles.net.au/forums/viewt ... 34&t=51878" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
What we need is a fatigue comparison of say 4130 to CF. But the problem is, as soon as anyone posts a CF figure, being such a varied composite, someone else will say that it's a different structure/layup/epoxy etc or that it was last week's CF and today's CF is so much better now.
Although I have a good idea of what I think will and won't last and the reasons for it, it is still something difficult to conclusively prove here, other than showing personal experiences.
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby Nobody » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:39 pm
Show us they aren't.clackers wrote:Well, how do you know? You're the one wanting hard facts and figures. Show us they're false or optimistic!Nobody wrote: although optimistically as expected from a manufacturer
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby Comedian » Wed Nov 14, 2012 2:54 pm
I'm not expecting to see it until the middle of next year.__PG__ wrote:I've been in it since the middle of July. I hope you aren't in a hurry.Comedian wrote:Well after much agonizing I've joined the Baum waiting list.
I just hope I can keep the current bike running until then.
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby Nobody » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:25 pm
I'm aware that Baum is considered one of the best, but surely there are others you can buy from. Isn't there? They are often cheaper too.Comedian wrote:I'm not expecting to see it until the middle of next year.
I just hope I can keep the current bike running until then.
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Re: Titanium Road Bikes
Postby Comedian » Wed Nov 14, 2012 3:33 pm
Yep. But as you rightly observed I wanted a great bike that fits me made with the characteristics I value.Nobody wrote:I'm aware that Baum is considered one of the best, but surely there are others you can buy from. Isn't there? They are often cheaper too.Comedian wrote:I'm not expecting to see it until the middle of next year.
I just hope I can keep the current bike running until then.
They are expensive but I spend a lot of time on the bike. I reckon they will be cheaper than the 3 year upgrade cycle the industry is pushing. . Plus I get to ride bike porn.
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