Vander's Tour to Canberra

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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby ft_critical » Wed Apr 04, 2012 10:20 pm

Vander, if you don't get any better we might need to move this thread to the Health forum

Just a joke.
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by BNA » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:57 pm

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Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby twizzle » Thu Apr 05, 2012 6:57 pm

Hr taking minutes to drop is very abnormal, that would scare the heck out of me. Only other time I've heard someone having something like this was a guy who overtrained and went anaemic.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Thu Apr 05, 2012 7:39 pm

Saw the doctor today he put me on some pretty strong anti-depressant drugs saying they were sleeping tablets. I asked him for a referral to a sports doc the one I got recommended but (and got the referral for) is booked out until may :( . I havent decided yet if I will take the drugs the doctor gave me yet.

I really want to race west head on Sunday but dont know if I will yet.
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Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby twizzle » Thu Apr 05, 2012 9:07 pm

Serotonin is required to sleep... having some carbs just before going to bed can do wonders for sleep if you don't want the drugs as it boosts the serotonin levels. The drugs often take a while to kick in anyway.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Fri Apr 06, 2012 6:19 pm

Decided to take it easy today and tomorrow and I think I will race west head sun then not do too much next week either. I also decided to have a week of no drugs and see how I am after that.

For a bit of strength training decided to do todays recovery ride in the 53-11 it was fun and felt good something I will do more often I think.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby Aussiebullet » Sat Apr 07, 2012 4:41 pm

vander wrote:Saw the doctor today he put me on some pretty strong anti-depressant drugs saying they were sleeping tablets. I asked him for a referral to a sports doc the one I got recommended but (and got the referral for) is booked out until may :( . I havent decided yet if I will take the drugs the doctor gave me yet.

I really want to race west head on Sunday but dont know if I will yet.



Personally I'd really consider getting a second medical opinion before going down the path of using anti-depressants as a miricle cure, how did he come to the conclusion you needed to be on anti-depressants? let me guess your GP asked you a few questions about mood, energy and anxitety levels etc and decided you should take them.....

Remember they ALL have side effects some can be very servere, ( I know from experience) and then there is always the possability of severe withdrawal effects when going off them, not to mention they could also play havoc on HR while training or have mild interactions with other things like caffine, usually barley notable and not really a concern for avg Joe but for a highly trained cyclist who is focusing on performance it's something to take into consideration.

Also one other thing no seems to have picked up on is you are; or were currently on medication for sleep disruption when you did your 250w 2x20's and noted your HR was high and took a while to drop and the following day you slept 9hrs and were still tired so who's to say that the sleep meds didn't play a part in any of that?
Right now the water is too muddy to come to any clear conclusions.
I think your idea to go a week without any drugs and see how you feel is sensible.
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Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:06 pm

Sleep meds make your eyes close but they do not give you the best recovery sleep.
I am not going to contradict your doctor Vander... But I would also be getting a second opinion. Antidepressant medications are used at low doses for a multitude of things.
I am hoping you just over cooked yourself. Personally I think as a rider in your first year you were doing a huge amount of training. You also have ZERO idea of what a recovery ride is... It is not put it in the 53/11 and do strength work or going for a 5 hour ride at slightly lower pace.
If you are as tired as you say then why are you thinking of racing this weekend?.
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Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby ozzymac » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:36 pm

Hi Vanderbilt,
I agree with tooloon above.
I wouldn't start on the pills unless u get a 2nd opinion. And also I have never heard of starting on a high dose first, it's usually a low dose and work your way up until they work.

It sounds more to me like you need a proper coach or at least someone to do up a training program?

Are you not a club member somewhere? Don't they have a coach if you are?

If not it might be worth a few dollars finding one.

Cheers


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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:02 pm

Had a coach writing up my program before, but he was trying to push me and I thought I was doing fine on it didnt realise till too late how much I was struggling. I agree with everyone in first year uni I did an assignment on depression so I know a lot about these drugs (SSRI's) and there side affects that is why I thought taking at least a week of nothing and seeing how I go.

Today I felt really quite chirpy even though last night I struggled a little to get to sleep it was probably the most refreshing sleep I have had in a while. I am also doing the same thing with these recovery rides not being proper recovery because really in chomping at the bit to start training properly again. Today I was doing a few strength efforts in the 53-11 I knew at the time I shouldnt be doing it but I was just thinking to myself I cant forget to enjoy riding and I like pushing myself and riding fast.

So far so good. Thanks for all the advice, I think even at the end of the week if I am tired I will get a second opinion before taking the drugs.

@Aussiebullet the doc didnt really ask much at all aobut my mood etc. I know from my studies that often a clinician will try and slip one past the patient and I think that is what he is trying to do with me. He keeps saying things like "dont worry we will sort this out" and sort of pick me up type things but has not made reference to he believes it is depression, however he said he does think its unlikely that it is over training just because nothing showed up on the bloods.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby Aussiebullet » Sun Apr 08, 2012 7:48 am

You sound in good spirits vander, it's amazing what a good sleep will do for a man, just don't go out and smash yourself strait away most people have a hard time getting to sleep anyway after a really hard race or day in the saddle and that's exactly what you don't need right now even though your chomping at the bit to get out and train like a beast which hardly sounds like someone who has depression don't ya think :D as you'd now most people who really do have clinical depression usually have a hard time finding the motivation to even get off the couch.

vander wrote:however he said he does think its unlikely that it is over training just because nothing showed up on the bloods.


This statement highlights one of my earlier posts that most GP's really know very little about overtraining, athletes, how hard they train the fatigue it generates and the effects it has on hormones, the CNS and immune system.
Overtraining in itself WILL NOT show up on a std FBE blood test, how can it, how can fatigue and exhaustion generated from months and months of hard training and racing show up in blood work? it can't and doesn't, an endocrinologist would have a better chance of picking up on something and would likely do amoung other things a saliver test for cortisol levels over 24hrs to find out if it is too high or low.
If on the other hand you had something like a vit/mineral deficiency like chronically low iron or B12 and that was causing servere fatigue then sure that would show up in the oringinal blood work but true overtraining and severe exhaustion even in it's early stages shows up absolutely nothing in blood work and I believe this is where you are at and recovering from right now, your beyond simply over reaching.

Your young new to the sport excited and motivated to keep training hard even though your still fatigued and are still having a little trouble getting to sleep and this is where; if you keep on continuing to push hard every time you feel the slightest bit refreshed may very well see yourself completely burnt out and overtrained and that can take up to six months or even longer to get over, trust me six mths would have seen me get off lightly, take it easy and don't make the same mistakes I did all those years ago, no more 53-11 recovery rides :roll: :mrgreen:
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby Porridgewog » Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:47 pm

Just a thought,as you have a new forward date for racing,why not just restart your base phases again and concentrate on incorporating a thorough and full recovery program....surely if you restart base wise then the overtraining wont be such an issue ......but i am just throwing it out there......
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Sun Apr 08, 2012 6:07 pm

Yea no more 53-11 recovery rides felt it in the race today no legs (probably another thing I shouldnt of done but I did enjoy it). Couldnt go with the move at the end of my C grade race at West Head. Was quite a hard race I thought I would do C fairly easy but apparently not. I have lost a fair bit but hopefully I can get it back quickly. Oh well.

Porridgewog, that is the plan to restart my base phase but race every weekend and do a group ride every now and then.

I agree with almost everything you said there aussiebullet. I am trying not to do too much its hard but really the hardest thing to do is ride easy.

Now some real recovery rides for a few days. Next 5 days will be 4 recovery days with 1 hardish ride then I will race next weekend again. Tired now after a big easter day with racing and a lot of playing with the little kids in the family.

Somehow got a 1 hour peak normalised power of 306. Av power was pretty low which I expected as when it was on it was on but when it wasnt it was pretty easy. Normalised power was 303 for the whole race.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby rogan » Sun Apr 08, 2012 8:37 pm

West Head is very tough racing, by far the hardest club C Grade in Sydney.

Just by the way, were you in C1s or C2s?
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Mon Apr 09, 2012 12:38 am

rogan wrote:West Head is very tough racing, by far the hardest club C Grade in Sydney.

Just by the way, were you in C1s or C2s?


C2 heard your name at some stage didnt know what bunch it was but. How did you go?
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby Aussiebullet » Mon Apr 09, 2012 4:56 pm

Normalised 1hr 306w Vander fair dinkum! that's a decent effort bro.
From that file and the fact you said it was a really hard race we can take it your FTP is at least ~290w assuming your power meter was calibrated/zeroed at the start, looks like your not that far down on power after all, I don't know the course at all but what was the avg speed?
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:26 pm

Aussiebullet wrote:Normalised 1hr 306w Vander fair dinkum! that's a decent effort bro.
From that file and the fact you said it was a really hard race we can take it your FTP is at least ~290w assuming your power meter was calibrated/zeroed at the start, looks like your not that far down on power after all, I don't know the course at all but what was the avg speed?


The course is a real rolling course its either up or down (700m of elevation in the 45km) nothing inbetween which helped the normalised average power was only about 220W (I calibrated it before the 15km ride to the race). First lap of the course we did at almost 37 and then second lap everyone sat up waiting for the sprint I think and we only did it at 34ish. I could definitely not get close to averaging 290W at the moment.

It is all starting to come back now HR is dropping on the recovery rides I was actually seeing in the 100s today.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby Aussiebullet » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:46 pm

Good news the hr is starting to behave again.
So you think the NP 306w was a true NP buster :?
I wonder what toolonglegs thinks, considering NP from a hard 1hr crit or race is one of the 7 deadly sins.
Better still maybee hit Alex Simmons up in the training section and see what he thinks,
I love picking apart race files that seem odd, and this one sonds like a DOOZY :D
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Mon Apr 09, 2012 5:56 pm

Aussiebullet wrote:Good news the hr is starting to behave again.
So you think the NP 306w was a true NP buster :?
I wonder what toolonglegs thinks, considering NP from a hard 1hr crit or race is one of the 7 deadly sins.
Better still maybee hit Alex Simmons up in the training section and see what he thinks,
I love picking apart race files that seem odd, and this one sonds like a DOOZY :D


Yea it is a real doozy becuase it was no pedalling downhill (apart from a couple of times when I was on the front) and always pedalling hard uphill. The Garmin files Av Power (Which is the av non 0 power) had me at 280 for the whole thing (I think best hour would of been more like 300).

I think a big problem with the race for me was the length of it being 45km and 15km to get there by the time the end of the race came I was 60km in which is pretty much the furthest I have ridden in 6 weeks cause first lap (the hard lap) I actually felt pretty good and I think I faded really badly so that was possibly the problem?

Also ridden 12 of the last 14 days now good to be starting to get back into it. Keen for some longer rides but probably wont have any long ones next weekend.
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Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby toolonglegs » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:46 pm

I wouldn't have a clue :-) ... But personally while I found NP interesting on telling you how hard something possibly was I wouldn't use it for FTP.
I had a 380w NP once for an hour with a 350w 2 hour on a very up and down course. Maybe my FTP was 360w at the time... But 380 was certainly not.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Tue Apr 10, 2012 12:10 am

Just found lots of NRS level power data ( http://www.nutriscience.com.au/blog.aspx ). Got some targets set now and I can see it is possible some of the numbers are not that high at all. Now I have to fight the urge to go out and train my sprints tomorrow even though I want to so bad.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby rogan » Tue Apr 10, 2012 8:15 am

vander wrote:
rogan wrote:West Head is very tough racing, by far the hardest club C Grade in Sydney.

Just by the way, were you in C1s or C2s?


C2 heard your name at some stage didnt know what bunch it was but. How did you go?


C1. We started with 25, we finished with 12, I was one of the 12, but couldn't go with them on the last hill coming up from the road to Akuna Bay. Just rolled in. It was my third tough day in a row, did another hard day yesterday, and couldn't get my pulse above my normal anaerobic threshold. Having a rest day today!

West Head is hard because you get semi pros turning up and racing A grade. Plus the course is tough. So guys who would ride A grade elsewhere, especially on the flat, will move down to B Grade. So guys like me who would ride B Grade elsewhere fear getting smashed so I ride C Grade there. And clearly that is the right grade for me.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby Aussiebullet » Tue Apr 10, 2012 9:25 am

toolonglegs wrote:I wouldn't have a clue :-) ... But personally while I found NP interesting on telling you how hard something possibly was I wouldn't use it for FTP.
I had a 380w NP once for an hour with a 350w 2 hour on a very up and down course. Maybe my FTP was 360w at the time... But 380 was certainly not.


Same here I'd never use 1hr NP as a def FTP but 95% of it is going to be in the ball park for sure and good enough to set as FTP in WKO or GC for the time being so 380W -5% = 361w so in this case it was a good estimator of what you think you could do balls out for an hour.

Thats why if Vanders PM was accurate and he believes it was then his 1hr 306w NP -5% = gives 290w FTP.
I realise you guys have proly read Alexs blog and aready know this so please don't
shoot the messenger :P
From Alex's blog: Seven Deadly Sins #4 Np from a hard ~1hr Race (Posted on the wattage forum by Dr Coggan in 2004)

"60 minute maximal Normalised power should be at least at your FTP if not a little higher (up to about 5% higher). If your 60 minute Normalised power is reported as more than 5% above your FTP, then that is a strong sign that your FTP needs resetting (upwards)."

Vander
Not saying you should start trying to hit these numbers in training just yet, more endurance/tempo would be a better way to keep building CTL and FTP (don't need to ride at L4 to build FTP that's been proven many times) until you ragain lost form and get closer to your target events. As Dr Coggan has said there's a trade off "volume or intensity" can't have both; at least not for long or BAD things tend to happen! hmmm wonder what that could mean he he.
That race alone is more than a hard enough effort to do once a week and if you feel good enough to race and repeat that effort this week or next it will give you another file to compare to.

As far as sprints go I find they don't take much to recover from if done in moderation, at the end of tempo rides 1 or 2 times p/wk in addition to dedicated L 6/7 sessions I'll do a mix of 3 - 6 seated, in the drops and on the hoods sprints in the range of 8, 10, 12sec sprints or "spin ups" focussing on either power or leg speed, its when you go out and do a dedicated L7 session for and hour or so nailing 20 -30sec all outs that they can come back and "bight" you in the comming training days putting you further behind in your build cycle or next training block.
For me that would mean over 2 hrs for the day in 2 or 3 sessions ~18 or so 20+ sec 1000w sprints and they generate alot of TSS and they hurt my training for several days
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:55 pm

Im back!

Awesome day on the bike today. Rode harder then I expected but I was feeling good. I set some PBs. I attacked an about 10min climb and set some new best powers which really surprised me as I didnt think I would get close Averaging 355W for about 9min (First 5 min I was around 380 but died a bit).

Then I had still planned to do my sprints so I went on to do a couple of them. First one I did I managed to push out 1475W, now this I was stoked with so I thought lets do another. Managed to get 1586 which was a massive PB of about 200W. Also held more than 1350 for over 5 seconds. So happy with that! However I think my longer fitness has dropped a bit as I was a bit tired at the end of the 2 hours.
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:03 pm

Now have a rest day PLEASE!!!! :P
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Re: Vander's Tour to Canberra

Postby vander » Tue Apr 10, 2012 4:17 pm

Taking tomorrow completely off. Dont worry I am trying to be careful.
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