Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby philip » Wed May 23, 2012 6:42 pm

biker jk wrote:They will be more aero than standard low profile rims!

Maybe, and even if they are, it's probably not all that much. They're a wedge shape (nothing like the zipp firecrest or the older "hybrid toroidal" profiles) and according to these tests the 2007 zipp 404 only saves you 3.5 watts over the dura ace C24 at 50km/h! The difference between the C50 and the C24 is only 0.3 watts! So rim depth is definitely not everything. You need to also take into account the rim profile, number of spokes, spoke shape etc.
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by BNA » Wed May 23, 2012 7:06 pm

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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby biker jk » Wed May 23, 2012 7:06 pm

philip wrote:
biker jk wrote:They will be more aero than standard low profile rims!

Maybe, and even if they are, it's probably not all that much. They're a wedge shape (nothing like the zipp firecrest or the older "hybrid toroidal" profiles) and according to these tests the 2007 zipp 404 only saves you 3.5 watts over the dura ace C24 at 50km/h! The difference between the C50 and the C24 is only 0.3 watts! So rim depth is definitely not everything. You need to also take into account the rim profile, number of spokes, spoke shape etc.


That difference between the C24 and C50 seems incorrect. At 50km, the Shimano RS30 has aero drag of 29.8 watts versus 27 watts for the C50 (according to the Tour magazine test, Q4 2011). So I doubt that the difference between the C24 and C50 would be just 0.3 watts. I also said that the simply shaped C50 was quite a bit more aero than every low profile wheel tested (including wider or more sophisticated rim shapes).
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby philip » Wed May 23, 2012 7:48 pm

biker jk wrote:That difference between the C24 and C50 seems incorrect.

I don't think so, they make special mention of the C24 in the Interpretation section. I know you're saying that the C50 (different years/models between these tests remember) is more aero that every low profile wheel that they tested, but my point is that it wouldn't be hard to imagine that a 50mm rim such as these chinese carbon wheels could offer very little benefit (if any at all) over a well designed traditional rim such as the C24 (I'm picking the C24 because that's what I currently use).

biker jk wrote:They will be more aero than standard low profile rims!

Given the results from above, I don't think you can say they will for sure until they have been tested properly.
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby PawPaw » Wed May 23, 2012 8:51 pm

A mate has 404s and we'll both compare those with the Farsports 50mm CCs.
I'm doubtful there'll be a perceived difference, but you never know....
Personally, I'm just as much motivated by lighter weight as potential aero benefit.

I often wonder about the aero benefit of the rear wheel. Turbulent air flow due to seat tube, legs, and front wheel I imagine undermines any benefit of an aero rear wheel....though I suppose solid dish rears are defacto standards for closed velo TTs.
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby Nobody » Thu May 24, 2012 12:09 am

philip wrote:
biker jk wrote:They will be more aero than standard low profile rims!

Maybe, and even if they are, it's probably not all that much. They're a wedge shape (nothing like the zipp firecrest or the older "hybrid toroidal" profiles) and according to these tests the 2007 zipp 404 only saves you 3.5 watts over the dura ace C24 at 50km/h! The difference between the C50 and the C24 is only 0.3 watts! So rim depth is definitely not everything. You need to also take into account the rim profile, number of spokes, spoke shape etc.
Thanks for linking the test. :)
Now I'm even more convinced that deep profile wheels are more of a fashion item than a performance aid.
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby philip » Thu May 24, 2012 8:08 am

Nobody wrote:Now I'm even more convinced that deep profile wheels are more of a fashion item than a performance aid.

Hah.. don't get me wrong - a good aero wheel is definitely going to give you a noticeable improvement and will save you time in a TT. But obviously not all deep rims are going to give you the same sort of performance benefits.
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby MichaelB » Thu May 24, 2012 10:01 am

philip wrote:
Nobody wrote:Now I'm even more convinced that deep profile wheels are more of a fashion item than a performance aid.

Hah.. don't get me wrong - a good aero wheel is definitely going to give you a noticeable improvement and will save you time in a TT. But obviously not all deep rims are going to give you the same sort of performance benefits.


Especially for the average rider. :D

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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby PawPaw » Thu May 24, 2012 11:09 am

Farsport 50mm CCs delivered to my LBS this morning. Just spoke with Ashley and he's surprised by the quality look, feel, roll, trueness, and spoke tension.
I'll pick up this afternoon and take for a roll around the home crit track.

Delivery details below for benefit of others who might be interested in ETAs.

Image

And whether this is good or bad remains to be seen, but the weight is significantly under spec (not taped)
front 565 g
rear 707 g
= 1272 grams. .... spec says 1350 +/- 30grams

These have the lighter hubsmith hubs. I did ask Smart at Farsports for an extra good set because I was going to let a few guys in my racing club try them out, and he might get some more orders out of it. But anyway, will see how we go.
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby twizzle » Thu May 24, 2012 11:23 am

Just my 0.02.

Guy I race with bought a set of 50mm foam cored carbon clinchers, raced on them a few times, had the rear rim split around the spoke holes on a social ride shortly afterwards. They sent him a new rim, it was being built up into a wheel by a local super-bike-mechanic when it failed before the spokes reached the specified tension.

I was also given some 50mm carbon clincher wheels for parts by a mate, he bought them from Torpedo7, Italian but made by one of the decent Taiwanese manufacturers (I looked them up, they make rims for everyone), rear spoke pulled through the carbon when it was being trued. I'm keeping the front for when I get under the 'safe' limit for the rim of 96kg, but I'll be watching it closely.

There's also a lot of questions about the epoxies used in the 'cheap' rims and wether or not they will survive high-speed descents. Someone on here had a Reynolds fail when he fitted swiss-stop 'yellow' pads, turns out the reynolds brake shoes have ceramic material in them to reduce the braking temp and keep the expoxy from exceeding the temp at which the sidewall of the rim can fail under the pressure of a clincher.

So... don't buy the lightest stuff if you are a heavy rider, and if you are planning on big descents and braking you should go for a tubular rim rather than a clincher as tubulars don't pop the sidewalls off when overheated. Or buy the reynolds pads or other suitable ones designed to keep braking temps down.
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby PawPaw » Thu May 24, 2012 12:00 pm

Thx twizz. All noted. Will take it conservatively for first few hundred km. am 84kg bmi 24.8, and aiming for 77. Fs said wheels rated to 115kg from memory but tbis probaably means little.
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby Parrott » Thu May 24, 2012 12:20 pm

There are a few yishun carbon clinchers in Bendigo, a some with larger riders on them. Haven't heard of any probs.

As far as the aero benefit goes it is there for racing. Never heard anyone complain they are slower, and have raced with plenty of people who use them. I am very surprised the difference between the best low profile and deeper profile is that small. I struggle in handicaps without mine, when you are at your limit the difference certainly feels bigger than that test would indicate :? . If it's placebo it works on my HR as well as my PE :?:
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby Crawf » Thu May 24, 2012 3:43 pm

My rims should ship soon, has everyone found there dispatch dates to be reasonably accurate? Or did they drag it out?
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby DavidI » Thu May 24, 2012 4:56 pm

PawPaw wrote:I often wonder about the aero benefit of the rear wheel. Turbulent air flow due to seat tube, legs, and front wheel I imagine undermines any benefit of an aero rear wheel....though I suppose solid dish rears are defacto standards for closed velo TTs.

You're 100% correct, any aero advantage gained is greater for the front wheel for exactly the reasons you mentioned. If, for whatever reason, you could only run one full disk for example, you're make a far greater aerodynamic gain by putting it on the front.
BUT
a front disk gives you scary handling in crosswinds, which is why they are rarely (if ever) used, except on a velodrome where crosswinds are rarely an issue. They're not even used in mass-start races on the track for the same reasons, as well as full disks being heavier (so no good in, say, a points race where there is a lot of acceleration - TBH not sure if they're even allowed on front except against the clock).
A modern, properly designed deep V wheel will give you nearly as much aero benefit as a full disk with less drastic effect on the handling.
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby Arlberg » Thu May 24, 2012 6:09 pm

Parrott wrote:There are a few yishun carbon clinchers in Bendigo, a some with larger riders on them. Haven't heard of any probs.

As far as the aero benefit goes it is there for racing. Never heard anyone complain they are slower, and have raced with plenty of people who use them. I am very surprised the difference between the best low profile and deeper profile is that small. I struggle in handicaps without mine, when you are at your limit the difference certainly feels bigger than that test would indicate :? . If it's placebo it works on my HR as well as my PE :?:


People seem to forget it is not only about the aero benefits with the carbon wheels. The weight benefits are in my opinion more important and provide a greater advantage than the aero benefits. Combine the two and its a no brainer.
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby PawPaw » Thu May 24, 2012 7:40 pm

Well, WELL, WELLLLLL ALRIGHTTTT!!! Yeah Baby Yeah. :D
Just back from crit training, and I can honestly say from the first time I accelerated, I was floored with how much easier it is to accelerate on the FS 50mmCCs.
But let me qualify that. My previous wheels were stock standard Bontrager Race L, weight ex tape, skewers, tubes and tires? 1920grams!!!
So that's almost a 650 gram difference with the FSs.

I let a mate put them on his bike too and he was really impressed as well, super responsive due to lightness, and very stable at speed.

Reluctantly, he gave me the wheels back, then I did 20 minutes at 30 to 37. Accelerations from 30 were so much easier. Steering felt more stable.
We then started a paceline of 10 guys, at 35 then built to low 40s, rotating through. In the last 2 laps we lifted it to mid 40s then a sprint.
I then did a few gentler sprints out of the saddle afterwards.

The main diff I feel is acceleration has gone from pedaling in tar, to pedaling in air. The difference is profound. I can wind it up from 35 to 40 with significantly less effort.

Drafting and holding line definitely seemed more stable. However, just so you know I am not punch drunk, through the Ss, I did feel like the back slipped sideways a couple of times. It's a feeling I have had with the old wheelset, which was resolved by tightening the cassette lockring.

My bike weight has gone from around 8 to 7.4kg.

OK, first impressions. The tires were already on when i saw them. The rims look nice and uniform, the spokes are stamped Sapim, and are tensioned as I'd expect, (Ashley said the rear needed the slightest attention), the hubs look like a mid priced hub looks.
They spin nicely, the freehub is louder than my Bontragers, but not as loud as many higher priced hubs.
Braking seemed pretty close to my alloys, though I didn't really push them.

OK, the downside:
- The skewers are light, 24grams, vs 67 for my bontragers. The axle might be the spec'ed titanium, but the lever is a very light and soft alloy, very poorly engineered, round and therefore hard to apply pressure to, and has not worked well since the 2nd time I tightened it due to loose clamping action.
- The two spare Sapim spokes they agreed to send and were listed on my invoice were not included.
- I got external nipples. The invoice didn't specify and I can't remember if I did in an email, so will have to check. Internal nipples look better and are apparently more robust, but are more difficult to true (tape has to come off) from what I've been told.
- I discussed the under specc'ed weight with Ashley. He's tested them and feels there's nothing obvious wrong, and affirmed the quality is surprisingly good, and they are stiff. When I talked about spokes being pulled through the rim before specced tension was reached, his response was "ha, that happens with Zipps too".
- Tubular carbon are less likely to have issues with rim distortion or failure during braking, but I'll be riding these on road rides, so didn't want to do tubbies.

I'll be racing on Sat at Lakeside in a reverse direction crit. There's a big hill and I'll be trying breaks with two team mates, so they'll get a nice workout. I'll use another set of skewers and take them for another ride tomorrow morning. I'll take photos of them on my bike tomorrow, but my bike is blue and white, so they aren't a great color match. I'm thinking of getting some white stickers (Lightweight :) ) to help with the aesthetics.
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby PawPaw » Fri May 25, 2012 6:36 pm

Farsports 50mm CCs

Hubsmith front axle. Very light but rolls as good as quality hubs. No space between J bends and flange holes indicating snug fit.
Image

Nice carbon weave and joins.
Image
I've taken these tires off and put them on my training wheels. The CCs now have Conti GP 4000s front and back.
If I decide to use these wheels primarily for criterium track racing and training, I'll put 195g Schwalbe ZX ($37) on rear and 170g ZLX ($34) on front.

The dodgy skewers
Image
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Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby ozdavo » Fri May 25, 2012 8:32 pm

PawPaw wrote:The dodgy skewers
Image

What exactly is wrong with the skewers? & is that F or R at 24g?
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby PawPaw » Fri May 25, 2012 9:21 pm

ozdavo wrote:What exactly is wrong with the skewers? & is that F or R at 24g?


See two posts back, and if that's not clear, the alloy of the ball shaped hinge mechanism is so soft, it was gouged into when first levered close; and it is now difficult to lever closed fully, and even more difficult to open.

Front skewer.
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Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby ozdavo » Fri May 25, 2012 9:41 pm

PawPaw wrote:
ozdavo wrote:What exactly is wrong with the skewers? & is that F or R at 24g?


See two posts back, and if that's not clear, the alloy of the ball shaped hinge mechanism is so soft, it was gouged into when first levered close; and it is now difficult to lever closed fully, and even more difficult to open.

Front skewer.

Thanks, (and all I got from your earlier post is it didn't work due to soft alloy after 2nd use). I only ask as I'm currently using a light set (44g total) on my new build: http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=101518
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby PawPaw » Fri May 25, 2012 11:30 pm

ozdavo wrote:I only ask as I'm currently using a light set (44g total) on my new build: http://weightweenies.starbike.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=101518


Your bike looks good. What frame is that and did you buy it new for $300?
I think the Conti GP 4000s are an excellent combo of lightweight and durability, though you could go lighter if primarily using the bike for racing.

suggestions for weight savings
Farsport 38mm CCs 1250 +/- 30g (bracciano are 1482)
lighter frame and fork.
only tape the drops and not the bars.
Be interested to hear how comfortable you are on the carbon saddle.
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby Abby » Sat May 26, 2012 11:48 am

Hi PawPaw,

Thanks for all the details on your new wheels - I've been tempted for a while, and its great to see some decent pics and a good review...!!

When Ashley (from Planet, I'm guessing?) checked over the wheels, did he actually have to do anything to them in the end? Or did he just check them over and leave them as is?

Don't suppose you are racing at the Metro road race tomorrow? I'll keep an eye out for you and your new wheels if you are... :D

Cheers,
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby PawPaw » Sat May 26, 2012 1:08 pm

Hi Abby, not doing the Mt Alford RR but some mates are. I'm either doing the flat HPRW 160 return to Landsborough, or destroying myself on Clear Mtn, Glorious, Coot-tha with the Audax animals.

If you've seriously been considering Chinese, and you have sram or shimano groupset, you're quite welcome to meet me one afternoon at Nundah Dome, and do a few laps with the wheels on your bike.

-> Ashley McGowan, High Gear Racing, Alderley.
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Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby ozdavo » Sat May 26, 2012 11:10 pm

PawPaw wrote:Your bike looks good. What frame is that and did you buy it new for $300?
I think the Conti GP 4000s are an excellent combo of lightweight and durability, though you could go lighter if primarily using the bike for racing.

suggestions for weight savings
Farsport 38mm CCs 1250 +/- 30g (bracciano are 1482)
lighter frame and fork.
only tape the drops and not the bars.
Be interested to hear how comfortable you are on the carbon saddle.


Thanks ;-P
Got the frame & fork on eBay from some guy in Sydney. His sales history indicated he had sold a few of these frames and the add said it was his last one. I paid $300 posted. Some on WW said it is a Figmo 900? I really have know idea, other than its tight, stiff and non compliant.
I'm happy with the bracciano's at the moment, but I would mind getting a set of aero rims sometime down the track & will keep the far sports in mind.
I'm actually quite happy with the weight so am not looking to drop any more weight other than in a new stem & cutting the steerer further once I have the fit sorted; and I only plan on wrapping half the bars, which will suit them as they are wing style with cable guides under the tops.
I looked long and hard for the "right" saddle, primarily based on reviews etc. the one I choose was not the lightest nor cheapest, but had the best reviews for comfort and the rear X-wing design where the rails join the saddle in a single point at the rear centre allowing for greater flex in the carbon seemed to support this. The longest ride I've done on it has only been 52k, but all good so far.
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby PawPaw » Mon May 28, 2012 7:57 am

I did 200km yesterday on my CCs- included 160k club ride. The course was flat but enough pot holes to dodge.
Of a group of 40, 5 of us had deep sections.

The wheels went very well though rear wheel seemed to have minor vibratory rattle on the rougher bitumen. It wasn't loose spokes either. I think it is just that they are lighter and hollow under the carbon rim (I presume), so some noises are magnified. Apart from that, I am still amazed at how much easier it is to accelerate, a primary function of 650g lighter wheel weight.
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Re: Chinese carbon frame and wheels thread

Postby steve-waters » Mon May 28, 2012 9:05 am

Valves rattle also with such light wheels valves can put wheel out of balance
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