ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby cyclotaur » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:07 pm

On the other hand, if you're in Melbourne Felt F5's (carbon) are on TdF special ATM .... $1699
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by BNA » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:44 pm

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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby Nobody » Fri Jul 20, 2012 10:44 pm

jacks1071 wrote:Here is a Pro-Lite Bella GP we built for a customer with Sram Red on it, the build came up over $4000. Of course the wheels were a significant part of that.. The bike pictured is about 6.6-6.7kg. I don't know how many carbon framed bikes you could get to that weight with that kind of budget?

With a good alloy wheel, Sram Red built up with the top end gear it wouldn't be hard to spend $3500 or there abouts and you'd end up with a bike about 6.9kg.

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Had an unusual WW urge yesterday to buy a 7Kg Al bike. Your posts seem to work. :)
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby Nobody » Fri Jul 20, 2012 11:10 pm

Parrott wrote:Oh I don't know I reckon you'll come good in the end. :wink:
You're right. I used to be a carbon owning envirovandal and lover of bling. Since then I've learnt to appreciate good value, durable, recyclable materials that are more understated and mature. 8) :wink:


Parrott wrote:And anyway your helmet is carbon :P
Well I don't know too much about my helmet, but my future road shoes may have carbon soles. I only have the choice of plastic or carbon, which translates to me as plastic or expensive plastic. :(
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby Parrott » Sat Jul 21, 2012 1:28 pm

Nobody wrote:
Parrott wrote:Oh I don't know I reckon you'll come good in the end. :wink:
You're right. I used to be a carbon owning envirovandal and lover of bling. Since then I've learnt to appreciate good value, durable, recyclable materials that are more understated and mature. 8) :wink:


Parrott wrote:And anyway your helmet is carbon :P
Well I don't know too much about my helmet, but my future road shoes may have carbon soles. I only have the choice of plastic or carbon, which translates to me as plastic or expensive plastic. :(


You are right I am puffing out CO2 and methane :oops: most mornings on my plastic and aluminium bike during my commute.

I would call those shoes expensive plastic and very expensive plastic :(
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby antipodean » Sat Jul 21, 2012 2:24 pm

jacks1071 wrote:Here is a Pro-Lite Bella GP we built for a customer with Sram Red on it, the build came up over $4000. Of course the wheels were a significant part of that.. The bike pictured is about 6.6-6.7kg. I don't know how many carbon framed bikes you could get to that weight with that kind of budget?

With a good alloy wheel, Sram Red built up with the top end gear it wouldn't be hard to spend $3500 or there abouts and you'd end up with a bike about 6.9kg.

Image


Had the bike been fitted for its owner in this photo? The frame looks 2 sizes too small if it has been.
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby Nobody » Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:35 pm

It may, or may not serve my distinct biases to post this. But I thought it was topical anyway.

http://www.bikerumor.com/2012/07/18/go- ... more-46258
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby JessicaAlba » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:42 pm

I've been around plenty of different forums in my time, for plenty of different hobbies or interests, and I have to say, this is quite possibly the most confusing thread I have ever seen. You all seem to be arguing back and forward about two sides of the same coin!

Although I am also a noob to all this, and recently commenced a similar thread myself, I have the benifit of age and reason to help make sense of this merry go round debate...but I pity the poor OP who just came in with a simple enough query and has been confronted with a bunch of school boys calling each other names.

From what I have read so far on this site and others, this is one of those age old arguments that never quite has a straight answer. A bit like which football team is the best. I personally see a lot of merit in the theory that a good quality, reputably built, Ali frame with good components will represent much greater value for money than a cheaply built inexpensive carbon bike.

Now, how about we all go clear our minds with a nice 80k ride on the frame of our choosing?? :D
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby Nobody » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:28 pm

JessicaAlba wrote:From what I have read so far on this site and others, this is one of those age old arguments that never quite has a straight answer. A bit like which football team is the best.

The short answer is that everyone has different applications and so have different values on what is important. Most on here either race or do group rides which places them in a carbon lover's environment. Since I do neither, I have differing values. This creates disagreements as the majority can't understand why us "others" don't love carbon too. Simple.

Below is long answer from a frame builder. Like all of us, he has his biases too.
http://shade.keeptrees.com/publications ... er/#page14
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby liquor box » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:49 pm

Nobody wrote:
JessicaAlba wrote:From what I have read so far on this site and others, this is one of those age old arguments that never quite has a straight answer. A bit like which football team is the best.

The short answer is that everyone has different applications and so have different values on what is important. Most on here either race or do group rides which places them in a carbon lover's environment. Since I do neither, I have differing values. This creates disagreements as the majority can't understand why us "others" don't love carbon too. Simple.

Below is long answer from a frame builder. Like all of us, he has his biases too.
http://shade.keeptrees.com/publications ... er/#page14

the shortest answer is QLD Reds and Rabbitohs
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby jacks1071 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:55 pm

antipodean wrote:
jacks1071 wrote:Here is a Pro-Lite Bella GP we built for a customer with Sram Red on it, the build came up over $4000. Of course the wheels were a significant part of that.. The bike pictured is about 6.6-6.7kg. I don't know how many carbon framed bikes you could get to that weight with that kind of budget?

With a good alloy wheel, Sram Red built up with the top end gear it wouldn't be hard to spend $3500 or there abouts and you'd end up with a bike about 6.9kg.

Image


Had the bike been fitted for its owner in this photo? The frame looks 2 sizes too small if it has been.


Good spotting :-)

The owner wasn't fitted, for assembly we clamp the post at the minimum insert because the post can get marked when you slide it into the frame. This one went to an experienced rider who knew his measurements so he would have slid the post down the right amount when he got it home.
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby jacks1071 » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:03 pm

Nobody wrote:unusual WW urge yesterday to buy a 7Kg Al bike. Your posts seem to work. :)


Excellent - do we get to see photos?

I'm racing with a guy at the moment who has a very nice Caad10 (We just fitted Pro-Lite Bracciano's to it yesterday for a nice weight saving).

Of our two local shops, one does Giant - the other does Cannondale. The Giant shop owner had a bit of a poke at him for not buying a Giant by calling it a crackenfail or something to that effect.

I took great pleasure in pointing out it wasn't a carbon version and would be pretty unlikely to give any trouble even for a high milage rider like this guy.
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby Nobody » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:51 pm

jacks1071 wrote:
Nobody wrote:unusual WW urge yesterday to buy a 7Kg Al bike. Your posts seem to work. :)


Excellent - do we get to see photos?
Fortunately (for me) in my middle-age, I get over my urges fairly quickly. Can't fault your direct marketing prowess though. :)

jacks1071 wrote:The Giant shop owner had a bit of a poke at him for not buying a Giant by calling it a crackenfail or something to that effect.

I took great pleasure in pointing out it wasn't a carbon version and would be pretty unlikely to give any trouble even for a high milage rider like this guy.
I suppose the bike shop owner is as old as me and so remembers the earlier days when the Crack'n'fale label came from their early Al models. Obviously things have improved in the last 20 years or so, now welded Al is an old technology in bikes and much cheaper. Carbon should be reliable by now, but companies appear to be still too eager to impress the WWs. To me, a 675 gram frame is unlikely to be rugged or durable for the long term, regardless of what they make it from.
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby jacks1071 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:25 am

Nobody wrote:I suppose the bike shop owner is as old as me and so remembers the earlier days when the Crack'n'fale label came from their early Al models. Obviously things have improved in the last 20 years or so, now welded Al is an old technology in bikes and much cheaper. Carbon should be reliable by now, but companies appear to be still too eager to impress the WWs. To me, a 675 gram frame is unlikely to be rugged or durable for the long term, regardless of what they make it from.


That is interesting, obviously before my time in cycling :-)

I didn't realise they had trouble with the older alloy frames.
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby Nobody » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:33 am

The frame I mentioned below was a Cannondale. Pretty, light and expensive Al frames for that time.

viewtopic.php?t=11641#p157362

TLL's comments are interesting.
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby Hangdog98 » Thu Aug 30, 2012 11:44 pm

Well, to throw a spanner in the mix, I'm was quite partial to the Aluminium frame material they called Scandium (Easton call it SC7000) and although it only has 0.1% of the element Scandium in it, it changes the properties of Aluminium quite a bit. It has the feel of steel, the lightness of carbon (well almost) and the cost of aluminium. It really is a beautiful alloy. It can also be welded by the local framebuilder and I'm surprised that it didn't really take off as much as it should have. So, I bought a La Pierre Scandium ULtimate 990 after watching Baden Cooke win the Green Jersey on a La Pierre at the Tour way back in 2003. The 990 stood for 990 grams which was the reported max frame weight. Mine was 970g plus carbon fork and it weighed in at 7kg. It rode beautifully and had excellent road feel like the Columbus Nemo steel bike it replaced. It got dented after a heavy crash and I couldn't find anybody who could repair Scandium, so that was that.
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby Nobody » Fri Aug 31, 2012 12:34 am

Hangdog98 wrote:I'm surprised that it didn't really take off as much as it should have.
Like magnesium and Ti. They might have the zing, but they don't have carbon's bling. :lol:
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Aug 31, 2012 9:47 am

Nobody wrote:
Hangdog98 wrote:I'm surprised that it didn't really take off as much as it should have.
Like magnesium and Ti. They might have the zing, but they don't have carbon's bling. :lol:


I quite enjoy riding my Cf roadie but the dull "tock" of a flicked fingernail agin the top tube can never equate to the musical tones of a nice tubeset. :wink:
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby Snoopy007 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 12:28 pm

Seeing as your new to cycling really alot of the stuff i've flicked through here is just bias crap.

I'm also quite new but having bought a bike with an aluminium frame i haven't been disappointed. I mean yes carbon is a better metal, more durable light weight etc. Really the main difference is price but if you shop around for a while it doesn't have to be.
If you can only afford an aluminium frame its better to get that then a cheap carbon, in my opinion. If you really hate the road buzz (which really is barely noticeable, i think alot of people are just a bit stuck up and are getting a bit weak as really it will only start to annoy you alot if you do a very long ride over a few days).

You do have to realise that pretty much all roadies now come with carbon forks, but if you really wanted to you could also upgrade your handlebars and seat post to carbon.

Depending on your budget theres a number of bikes you can get. Really if you're planning on touring/racing i wouldn't recommend anything under shimano 105. Which normally costs about 1300-1900$ (on a bike, obviously). But i recently saw a special for a carbon road bike with ultegra... personally i think it's a great deal and would have saved up a bit more if i would have noticed it. Here's a link, i think you can go to their store and have a test ride... not sure: http://www.bikes.com.au/p/5834638/2012- ... -bike.html

Really to answer your question carbon vs/ alum, carbon will win but aluminium isn't really bad, The only difference really you'll find is lighter weight (which everyone seems to say doesn't even make a difference unless you're going up hill) because you'll go from about a 8.5-9kg bike to around 7.5-8kg bike (depending on how much you pay... if you pay 12000$ u can easily find something less then that mentioned). Otherwise the only thing is carbon is slightly stronger.

To be honest i'd stay away from titanium and manganese... get carbon or aluminium.
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:06 pm

Snoopy007 wrote:Seeing as your new to cycling really alot of the stuff i've flicked through here is just bias crap.
Unless you show specific reasons as to why it is rubbish, your statement doesn't tell us much.

Snoopy007 wrote:...I mean yes carbon is a better metal, more durable light weight etc.
Can I assume the text in bold is a typo?
Can you give us more specifics as to why carbon is more durable in a bike application? We debate topics and try to learn from each other if possible, so specific examples and links to studies would be beneficial.

Snoopy007 wrote:Otherwise the only thing is carbon is slightly stronger.
Carbon is generally stronger for its weight than Al, but since road bikes are made to a particular strength (depending on design and application) carbon has a weight advantage, but not usually a strength advantage as well. Some might say the lightest carbon road bikes may even be weaker since the designers made them as light as they could get away with and so may have rider weight limits. You could also say the same about other materials. It really comes down to the individual design.

Snoopy007 wrote:To be honest i'd stay away from titanium and manganese... get carbon or aluminium.
Yeah, I'd stay away from manganese too. :)
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby rkelsen » Sat Sep 08, 2012 1:50 pm

Nobody wrote:
Snoopy007 wrote:To be honest i'd stay away from titanium and manganese... get carbon or aluminium.
Yeah, I'd stay away from manganese too. :)

*cough*

:mrgreen: :lol:
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 08, 2012 2:10 pm

rkelsen wrote:*cough*

:mrgreen: :lol:
Oh...yeah. :oops: Maybe not then. :D
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby warthog1 » Sat Sep 08, 2012 3:27 pm

A big advantage of that carbon has over the other major frame materials is that it can be manufactured in such a wide variety of shapes and profiles. This allows larger profiles at tube junctions such as the head tube and bottom bracket area resulting in some serious rigidity improvements.
It is not without its faults though and is susceptible to impact damage, it therefore needs to be treated with care. I'm getting mine insured given my riding record :oops:
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Sep 08, 2012 8:24 pm

warthog1 wrote:A big advantage of that carbon has over the other major frame materials is that it can be manufactured in such a wide variety of shapes and profiles. This allows larger profiles at tube junctions such as the head tube and bottom bracket area resulting in some serious rigidity improvements.
It is not without its faults though and is susceptible to impact damage, it therefore needs to be treated with care. I'm getting mine insured given my riding record :oops:


Ahem, can be done with metals as well... LINK
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby Nobody » Sat Sep 08, 2012 9:48 pm

Mulger bill wrote:
warthog1 wrote:A big advantage of that carbon has over the other major frame materials is that it can be manufactured in such a wide variety of shapes and profiles. This allows larger profiles at tube junctions such as the head tube and bottom bracket area resulting in some serious rigidity improvements.
It is not without its faults though and is susceptible to impact damage, it therefore needs to be treated with care. I'm getting mine insured given my riding record :oops:


Ahem, can be done with metals as well... LINK
Other materials just don't have that high-tech appeal so they would have difficulty with sales. "Oh...they should have done it in carbon which so much better looking, lighter, stiffer, more vibration damping, more durable and doesn't fatigue...". :roll: Who says pro-rider marketing doesn't work?
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Re: ALUMINIUM VS CARBON FIBRE

Postby clackers » Sun Sep 09, 2012 12:02 am

Snoopy007 wrote:. I mean yes carbon is a better metal.


'Material' rather than 'metal'?

The carbon sheets are put into a mould with a liquid resin (plastic) that hardens and glues the layers together.
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