Average speeds?

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Re: Average speeds?

Postby ft_critical » Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:17 am

Cadence comes up a lot.

PEZ wrote:In the end, it appears that you can be fairly similar in efficiency and performance between the range of 80 – 100 rpm, so a higher cadence may not be as big a deal as it seems.


there is a study (well three actually) quoted in this article that I like.

http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/page/toolbox/?id=89252
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by BNA » Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:35 am

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Re: Average speeds?

Postby ni78ck » Sat Apr 06, 2013 11:35 am

DD, you make alot of sense. i agree with you on alot of your point there.
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Re: Average speeds?

Postby Derny Driver » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:08 pm

ni78ck wrote:DD, you make alot of sense. i agree with you on alot of your point there.

Thanks Nick. To me, to be a great racing cyclist you must be competent in all the various aspects. If you have a weakness, work on it and fix it. An all round cyclist is a prolific winner. He cant be dropped on the hills. He can win off the front on his own. He can win from a small break. He can win a large bunch sprint. A one dimensional rider is easily beaten. His competitors find his weakness and then join forces to exploit it.
Practise your strengths and train your weaknesses.
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Re: Average speeds?

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:47 pm

This is why I have said before DD, that a bloke/girl that can handle endurance riding and have a half decent sprint can do a lot of damage. I used to love the 20k scratch race when it was ridden at a high pace because I knew that the pure sprinters would have a lot of the wind knocked out of their sails and I would be a good chance of a win or place The point score races where even better because I could inflict loads of pain on them. :twisted:

You must train to you strengths and work on your weaknesses and then in the races apply your strengths against those that are weak in them and hope that your competitors strenghts don't cancel yours out. :mrgreen:

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Re: Average speeds?

Postby vander » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:45 pm

I also agree DD what you say makes a fair bit of sense. But I also see what twizzle is getting at. At my stage (just over a year of riding) I am still trying to be the best at everything and see where I end up. I agree you should never imprison yourself in one style of riding especially not early on. However at some stage you need to decide what you want to focus on, just look at Durbridge who had to drop out of the team pursuit because he didnt have an explosive enough first km due to his focus on the long TTs on the road.
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Re: Average speeds?

Postby singlespeedscott » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:47 pm

I am certainly no racer but I think the spinning thing is a bit of a myth.

I have ridden a fixed gear regularly for 10 or so years on rides up to 200km in length. When I do these rides I have geared my bikes so that they will have legs spin an average of 90-100rpm. Based on my average speed for the ride obviously.

When I jump on my geared bike I still find that I will push a bigger gear at a lower rpm for the same route compared to the fixed gear.

I think the only thing the fixie has done is improved the smoothness of my stroke as well as giving me the mindset to push over rolling hills instead of dropping a gear and backing off.
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Re: Average speeds?

Postby foo on patrol » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:13 pm

singlespeedscott wrote:I am certainly no racer but I think the spinning thing is a bit of a myth.

I have ridden a fixed gear regularly for 10 or so years on rides up to 200km in length. When I do these rides I have geared my bikes so that they will have legs spin an average of 90-100rpm. Based on my average speed for the ride obviously.

When I jump on my geared bike I still find that I will push a bigger gear at a lower rpm for the same route compared to the fixed gear.

I think the only thing the fixie has done is improved the smoothness of my stroke as well as giving me the mindset to push over rolling hills instead of dropping a gear and backing off.


Bingo! :wink:

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Re: Average speeds?

Postby Walsh95 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:57 pm

wurtulla wabbit wrote:Where were all the successful climbers born, raised, lived, trained ?

Spain ad Italy are both pretty mountainous and hilly by nature.
Scotland is, England is, Ireland is flat as a pancake mostly.
Holland is mostly flat, Germany is pretty mountainous and hilly in parts.

Just trying to see if there's a pattern to tue success from the "good ones"


Yes but remember that road cycling has been big in Europe for a LOT longer than its been big in aus. And didnt quite understand, are you saying that England is mountainous?

Climbers as you say, do generally come from mountainous regions, but then, as many sprinters and ttrialists come from the places you mentioned as climbers. No, I think that being a climber is as much natural morphology and ability as it is where you are brought up.
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Re: Average speeds?

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Sat Apr 06, 2013 5:41 pm

England has the Pennines, the Cumbrian ranges and lots more hilly areas.
I think iirc that Scotland has 75% uninhabited land, most of it is boggy , forestry, water or hills/mountains.
England won't be similar in stats but has a fair chunk of hilly/mountainous regions.
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Re: Average speeds?

Postby Walsh95 » Sat Apr 06, 2013 8:45 pm

Australia does as well, great dividing range runs the length of the east coast.
S'pose no one ever gets round to riding it though eh?
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Re: Average speeds?

Postby twizzle » Sun Apr 07, 2013 6:55 pm

Derny Driver wrote:....

So this is why I dislike the genetics talk and the labelling of young riders as being 'endurance', 'sprinter' or whatever. Not having a go at you either twiz, as I enjoy your posts. Just explaining myself.
cheers, DD


No disagreement here re. labelling people too early... but once you have a few years of racing under the belt and you have the data to look at, there are some things you can't change. Being able to spin smoothly and make power at high cadence (ie. 140 - 160) requires some genetics. Being able to sprint explosively... genetics. Having a huge heart to drive big aerobic power... genetics again.

A few years ago I nearly gave up racing because I was sick of pulling the bunch around, smashing myself in the last km to try and drop the other riders and then being pipped at the post EVERY SINGLE TIME. I have learnt to accept that I have some weaknesses/limiters that I can't overcome with training, it just means I have to work on tactics and I get my enjoyment from personal goals instead of race results.

And it didn't stop me from giving it 105% at the uphill sprint finish today trying to stay with the leaders. I knew I would fall short, but I still tried.



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Re: Average speeds?

Postby Ross » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:57 am

twizzle wrote:
Derny Driver wrote:....

So this is why I dislike the genetics talk and the labelling of young riders as being 'endurance', 'sprinter' or whatever. Not having a go at you either twiz, as I enjoy your posts. Just explaining myself.
cheers, DD


No disagreement here re. labelling people too early... but once you have a few years of racing under the belt and you have the data to look at, there are some things you can't change. Being able to spin smoothly and make power at high cadence (ie. 140 - 160) requires some genetics. Being able to sprint explosively... genetics. Having a huge heart to drive big aerobic power... genetics again.

A few years ago I nearly gave up racing because I was sick of pulling the bunch around, smashing myself in the last km to try and drop the other riders and then being pipped at the post EVERY SINGLE TIME. I have learnt to accept that I have some weaknesses/limiters that I can't overcome with training, it just means I have to work on tactics and I get my enjoyment from personal goals instead of race results.

And it didn't stop me from giving it 105% at the uphill sprint finish today trying to stay with the leaders. I knew I would fall short, but I still tried.



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I don't agree with you Twizzle. You have to train your weaknesses until they are no longer weaknesses. Your main competitor in Gunning race is of similar size and weight to you but has good power and can hold his own on hills as well as drive it on the front into the wind.
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Re: Average speeds?

Postby twizzle » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:41 am

And at the end of the race he was still able to sprint off, while I hit an "awesome" 9W/kg for ten seconds before dropping back to my VO2Max level. I cannot train what I don't have. The NSWIS sprint coach and I had a chat about this at the beginning of last year, and his advice was to work on tactics and FTP and not waste my time.

What I should have done was attacked from before the bottom of the hill, but I was stupidly thought I could hang on in a sprint at the end given that Christophe hadn't dropped me on the Culerin range. I won't make that mistake again.
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Re: Average speeds?

Postby Metor » Mon Apr 08, 2013 3:24 pm

Train your strenghts and race your strenghts. Don't waste time on training your weakness. If you aren't explosive or fast in a sprint, then train your strenght and become even better at riding a time trial for example. It gives you the option to make a break for it in a race and try to stay away solo. Visa Versa as well ofcourse.
Make the weapon you have as good as you can, that can bring you succes.

Unfortunately I am good in everything but don't stand out in anything. Not fast enough for being a real sprinter, not strong enough for being a good time trailist and not light/strong enough to be a good climber. Like my teammate told me: You're a good climber for a sprinter and a good sprinter for a climber. :lol:
I get good results but podium or winning is something I have done exactly 4 times, over 6 years of racing... But simply love to race! 8)
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Re: Average speeds?

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Apr 08, 2013 5:48 pm

Ross wrote:
twizzle wrote: I have learnt to accept that I have some weaknesses/limiters that I can't overcome with training, it just means I have to work on tactics

And it didn't stop me from giving it 105% at the uphill sprint finish today ..
.


..... in Gunning race .....

Aha! So you were the Canberra dudes racing that illegal non- RTA and Police approved, non CNSW sanctioned "race" on the same course at the same time as the CNSW sanctioned / Police and RTA approved Southern Divisions championships ? I wont repeat what the Chief Commissaire and CNSW State Handicapper said about you blokes when they accidentally discovered you were using their course. It wasn't good.
Anyways, not my problem, everyone was well behaved out there - I was driving the big white van in front of one of the grades. Maybe next April check with Goulburn CC as to the date to avoid the clash.

Great course though, one of my favourites, and one where you really can use some tactics to get away. Very few of our races ended in bunch sprints.
Which brings me back to your point twizzle which I accept, that not everything can be overcome with training. However the BEST thing about cycling is that it is an intelligent persons sport, you need more than wattage, numbers and brute horsepower to win. You need to be clever. You have a thousand mini-decisions to make during the race and you must make the right one every time, and quickly ...hesitate for a split second or make a wrong move, and you lose.
It seems to me twiz that you are trying to beat a guy who is slightly better than you. Now that's a different scenario to the person who gets beaten by his equals in the bunch kick every week who just need to go and practise his finishes, or do a season of track racing. Trying to beat a guy who has more weapons, more HP than you ...well its one of the joys of the sport if you can pull it off. Like beating that brand new $80,000 BMW in a drag with your 1972 2 litre Datsun you hotted up yourself.
Lots of guys find themselves riding a grade too high and find they do not have the weaponry to compete with better riders. Or there is that bloke in your grade who always seems to have your measure. That's a different topic and not really what I was talking about when I said we shouldn't limit ourselves with labels. Even so, the 2 strongest attributes a cyclist can have are the ability to hurt yourself and really dig deep in a race, and self belief or a winning mindset. Many things can be trained and improved with skill development but a person who is mentally soft will never be any good and cant be coached.
Metor you have done well to win 4 races in 6 years, when you think of how many people race, and the quality of your rivals, that's a good strike rate. Many people never win a race and then they crack mentally and race dumb, doing stupid things to try and show off to the other competitors, to compensate for their self perceived failings. "Oh I wasn't trying to win, Im just having a hard ride / bit of fun / whatever". The more races a person loses, the hungrier they should become, working harder and training harder, talking to experienced riders, becoming more race savvy and clever tactically. The wins will come if a person is patient and learns from their mistakes.

Watching Cancellara win last night, world TT champion shouldn't be able to sprint (genetically speaking) yet he consistently shows that it there are only a handful of Pros in the world who can threaten him at the end of a race. Its his mind which is his weapon. Milan San Remo is historically a race for sprinters, having been won by all the great road sprinters like Cavendish, Cipollini, Zabel, Petacchi, Altig, DeBruyne, Van Looy, Van Steenbergen, Poblet .... Yet Fabs is 3rd this year, 2nd in 2011, 1st in 2008. He shouldn't be able to do that. He's too big to climb, yet he can do that as well. He is a case in point, a bloke who believes he can win any kind of race, even if he has to do a track stand on a velodrome and use track sprint tactics to win. Never even needed to get out of the seat.

Last 2 races big sprinter Greipel has been up there stomping on the cobbles. WT? ! I love to see blokes defying all logic!
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Re: Average speeds?

Postby jcjordan » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:52 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
Ross wrote:
twizzle wrote: I have learnt to accept that I have some weaknesses/limiters that I can't overcome with training, it just means I have to work on tactics

And it didn't stop me from giving it 105% at the uphill sprint finish today ..
.


..... in Gunning race .....

Aha! So you were the Canberra dudes racing that illegal non- RTA and Police approved, non CNSW sanctioned "race" on the same course at the same time as the CNSW sanctioned / Police and RTA approved Southern Divisions championships ? I wont repeat what the Chief Commissaire and CNSW State Handicapper said about you blokes when they accidentally discovered you were using their course. It wasn't good.
Anyways, not my problem, everyone was well behaved out there - I was driving the big white van in front of one of the grades. Maybe next April check with Goulburn CC as to the date to avoid the clash.

G


As the Vice President of the ACTVets I think i will jump in and set you straight

First of all we have all the Council, RTA and Police approvals in place. What we don't have is a Cycling Australia or Cycling NSW approval, why, because we don't need them as we are a AVCC club and have no affiliation with either of those groups.

Secondly we have been holding our Gunning 2 Day course on the Daylight Savings weekend for over 12 years so in effect you have actually interloped onto our weekend. Maybe we should be the ones complaining.
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Re: Average speeds?

Postby twizzle » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:55 pm

Myself and one other at the end of the first 48km stage on Sat, a 16.1 km break. 43.7kph, 371W, 374W NP, most of my turns I was pushing 400-430w. On the final climb to the line I lost 17 seconds to the other guy but gained 15 seconds on my nearest threat, giving me a 29 second buffer for the second (96km) stage.


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Re: Average speeds?

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:26 pm

jcjordan wrote:
As the Vice President of the ACTVets I think i will jump in and set you straight

First of all we have all the Council, RTA and Police approvals in place. What we don't have is a Cycling Australia or Cycling NSW approval, why, because we don't need them as we are a AVCC club and have no affiliation with either of those groups.

Secondly we have been holding our Gunning 2 Day course on the Daylight Savings weekend for over 12 years so in effect you have actually interloped onto our weekend. Maybe we should be the ones complaining.



Hi James
I have nothing to do with the organisation of the race so I don't know. All I know is that the organisers weren't happy. Some communication between the 2 groups Im sure would sort the problem quite simply. If one group started 30 mins earlier and the other 30 mins later that would probably keep everyone happy.
I can give you the phone number of the Secretary of the Southern Division association. Or possibly just contact Goulburn CC?
I would assume that an ACT club racing on NSW roads would find it difficult to pull rank over a CNSW event.
Anyway mate, Im not after an argument, I even gave all your volunteers and car drivers a friendly wave yesterday. We're all friends here in cycling world.
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Re: Average speeds?

Postby jcjordan » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:31 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
jcjordan wrote:
As the Vice President of the ACTVets I think i will jump in and set you straight

First of all we have all the Council, RTA and Police approvals in place. What we don't have is a Cycling Australia or Cycling NSW approval, why, because we don't need them as we are a AVCC club and have no affiliation with either of those groups.

Secondly we have been holding our Gunning 2 Day course on the Daylight Savings weekend for over 12 years so in effect you have actually interloped onto our weekend. Maybe we should be the ones complaining.



Hi James
I have nothing to do with the organisation of the race so I don't know. All I know is that the organisers weren't happy. Some communication between the 2 groups Im sure would sort the problem quite simply. If one group started 30 mins earlier and the other 30 mins later that would probably keep everyone happy.
I can give you the phone number of the Secretary of the Southern Division association. Or possibly just contact Goulburn CC?
I would assume that an ACT club racing on NSW roads would find it difficult to pull rank over a CNSW event.
Anyway mate, Im not after an argument, I even gave all your volunteers and car drivers a friendly wave yesterday. We're all friends here in cycling world.


Sorry if I came across a bit strong, but when we get accused of running an illegal race I get a bit defensive.

We have spoken to Goulburn club in the past and with one exception (we were told that as we were not a CA club we had not rights to the road at all and should go home) we have not had any problems.

My surprise is that for the last couple of years the local council has approved the race on the same course?
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Re: Average speeds?

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Apr 08, 2013 9:56 pm

jcjordan wrote:
Sorry if I came across a bit strong, but when we get accused of running an illegal race I get a bit defensive.

We have spoken to Goulburn club in the past and with one exception (we were told that as we were not a CA club we had not rights to the road at all and should go home) we have not had any problems.

My surprise is that for the last couple of years the local council has approved the race on the same course?

Yes fair enough James, I apologise for assuming you did not have approval. Im a bit baffled as to how council can approve 2 different clubs to race on the same stretch of road on the same day at the same time. but we probably shouldn't be surprised.
I always help out at this event as my son races it, last year they knew you were going to be there and everything was cool. This year they didn't seem to know about your race. But its quite clearly on your website so it wouldn't be hard to check.
Just a mis-communication this year it seems.

I was interested to see quite a lot of tandems racing. Are they visually impaired people or just people who like tandems? In the Illawarra there is a group called ExSight tandems for visually impaired people, some of our club members ride as captains for them.
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Re: Average speeds?

Postby jcjordan » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:41 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
jcjordan wrote:
Sorry if I came across a bit strong, but when we get accused of running an illegal race I get a bit defensive.

We have spoken to Goulburn club in the past and with one exception (we were told that as we were not a CA club we had not rights to the road at all and should go home) we have not had any problems.

My surprise is that for the last couple of years the local council has approved the race on the same course?

Yes fair enough James, I apologise for assuming you did not have approval. Im a bit baffled as to how council can approve 2 different clubs to race on the same stretch of road on the same day at the same time. but we probably shouldn't be surprised.
I always help out at this event as my son races it, last year they knew you were going to be there and everything was cool. This year they didn't seem to know about your race. But its quite clearly on your website so it wouldn't be hard to check.
Just a mis-communication this year it seems.

I was interested to see quite a lot of tandems racing. Are they visually impaired people or just people who like tandems? In the Illawarra there is a group called ExSight tandems for visually impaired people, some of our club members ride as captains for them.


All our tandems have a vision impaired rider as a stoker and we have a couple of other riders in the grade with other disabilities (one leg or similar). we tend to be a very inclusive club.
We even have one tandem that races A grade, they also ride at the Olympic level and can give the grade a good run for their money.

To be fair to the the your race we have never had any problems out on the road. We brief our riders to pull left and let your faster bunches through but we both could have discussed this better before hand. Good to see a strong contingent of juniors racing.
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