Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:28 am

Sounds like a bludger dipped in bread crumbs.

If you have those people, you just need to deal with them during the race (there are legit ways), or forget about them.

One thing I don't get is team style racing in anything other than the top grade on the day of the race. That's just lame.
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by BNA » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:34 am

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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby toppity » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:34 am

difficult question. I have been accused before in a crit'. The guy (an experienced rider) did not have a smile on his face so I (much to my regret now) asked him out the back to discuss it further, thank God that didn't eventuate. But I did take offence. I don't consider myself a bludger. I work in handicaps (I hate them though), I shut down breaks when I can/if I think necessary, because I consider myself a sprinter (well I'm surely not a climber). I also work on the front from time to time. I've won one race in a break (funnily enough a crit). But in the end, I don't begrudge anyone their own lot. If that's their go, then devise a tactic to beat them. If you are happy sacrificing your own chances, do what Foo has done. In the end, I don't race for positive self esteem, I race for the competition and for the enjoyment/release that gives.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby toppity » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:37 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:One thing I don't get is team style racing in anything other than the top grade on the day of the race. That's just lame.


I quite enjoy it and it makes for alot of fun banter and high participation rates at our club team races. They seem to work and give us low graders a bit of a feel for what it is like to be semi-pro. :D
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby trek52 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:08 am

Firslty I have done more than my fair share of work over the years, including hundreds of Km on the front working for teams in NRS/State level races. However my views as I have gotten older have changed, yeah ok I can sprint a little bit, but I have a new theory....There are no awards for best and fairest in cycling !!!

Sure I will do my turns in a break etc but why should I do turns in a normal bunch when I dont have to ? I reckon to many people do turns that are not required for no reason. If the bunch is rolling along with no attacks or breaks at 45kmh WT? would I do a turn. If a break goes etc then I will either get in it or ride across but why waste energy for the finish if I dont have to.

*This only applies to proper races not a local club race that I believe are glorified training sessions.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby Marty Moose » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:55 pm

trek52 wrote:Firslty I have done more than my fair share of work over the years, including hundreds of Km on the front working for teams in NRS/State level races. However my views as I have gotten older have changed, yeah ok I can sprint a little bit, but I have a new theory....There are no awards for best and fairest in cycling !!!

Sure I will do my turns in a break etc but why should I do turns in a normal bunch when I dont have to ? I reckon to many people do turns that are not required for no reason. If the bunch is rolling along with no attacks or breaks at 45kmh WT? would I do a turn. If a break goes etc then I will either get in it or ride across but why waste energy for the finish if I dont have to.

*This only applies to proper races not a local club race that I believe are glorified training sessions.

+1 I like:)

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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby twizzle » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:53 pm

trek52 wrote:*This only applies to proper races not a local club race that I believe are glorified training sessions.


Ooooo... that smarts!

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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby jules21 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:01 pm

it depends on the type of race, but working turns up the front of the bunch for its own sake = boring racing.

i will tend to schnivel, then use my saved energy to launch an attack. you can't work on the front and attack - or if you can - you're probably in the wrong grade (unless you're in A grade).

some people are happy to work on the front. others schnivel and wait for the bunch kick. other like to use their energy to attack. it's a game, it's meant to be fun. anyone who gets upset is doing it wrong.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby warthog1 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:22 pm

This is why I like tt's I guess. No tactics, no schnivellers or sprinters by any other name :P , just ride and the fastest wins :)
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby lock_ » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:57 pm

Unless we're talking handicaps or breakaways I think the real question has always been why not just 'sit on'. And everyone has their reasons...
- I've done it when I felt I probably should have been up a grade,
- wanted to test the waters/see how the legs felt pushing some wind (but without the commitment of a break),
- wanting to 'finish off' the legs knowing the race was pretty much over for me (not a sprinter),
- someone has to ride at the front (things get sketchy when the guy up front stops pedalling or even brakes as they dont want to work),
- make up position,
- earn a good position (you'll find a wheel easier if you do some work)

Certainly have no problem with schnivelling, very much part of racing, don't think it really needs its own made up word though. If you want to really annoy me, just throw your empty gel pack on the road.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby jules21 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:04 pm

lock_ wrote:- earn a good position (you'll find a wheel easier if you do some work)

i find this often doesn't work for me. if i pull off, or another rider comes over the top, everyone else takes their wheel and i'm left out in the wind. sometimes someone will take pity and let me in, but otherwise i have little choice but to drift back until there's a free spot.

are you doing any road races lock? my season has been ruined to date by a foot infection.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby lock_ » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:47 pm

jules21 wrote:
lock_ wrote:- earn a good position (you'll find a wheel easier if you do some work)

i find this often doesn't work for me. if i pull off, or another rider comes over the top, everyone else takes their wheel and i'm left out in the wind. sometimes someone will take pity and let me in, but otherwise i have little choice but to drift back until there's a free spot.


Yeah, we're talking Coburg crits here aren't we... I'd let you in, few others would too, but not everyone. I found I'd have better results staying on the front, and hoping for someone to roll over me instead of pulling off. Yes, sometimes this did mean I'd ease up somewhat. I always made a point to roll over the guy in front, so that anyone else I dragged up the field would then either roll over me, or be left out in the wind.

jules21 wrote:are you doing any road races lock? my season has been ruined to date by a foot infection.


Yes, and sorry to hear Jules. Just lately there seems to have been a stack of broken bones around the local race scene (3x collar bones in one grade at HoTW). It's not so much the pain of breakage I worry about, just the whole not riding/racing/losing fitness that really worries me. Hope it sorts itself out soon enough.

Road races have been tough to do with family commitments / single car family / wife working Saturdays. Still managed to sneak in a few handicaps with the Seymour Broadford CC, worth looking up if you're after a solid country racing experience (race on every Sat afternoon, year round). Will be racing with the Northern Combine out at Newham this weekend.

It's nice racing road again, etiquette/tactics/teams matter less, more-so just a race of attrition. First RR this season was a secret handicap, bunch of 25 or so was set off together. This dropped down to 5 after the first climb, no 'attacking' required. *back on topic*, I worked with the group, consisting of the regular scratch riders (which I am not) until I could no more. 'Sat on' for the last two laps, got dropped on the last climb but didn't lose too much time (minute or so). Checked my handicap after the race, hoped for my regular chopping block mark, discovered he'd put me in with scratch as he figured I'd be able to hold on. Damn. Anyway, it's ok to sit on when the handicapper expects you too, even if you don't know it :wink: .
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby jules21 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:08 pm

lock_ wrote: Yes, and sorry to hear Jules. Just lately there seems to have been a stack of broken bones around the local race scene (3x collar bones in one grade at HoTW). It's not so much the pain of breakage I worry about, just the whole not riding/racing/losing fitness that really worries me. Hope it sorts itself out soon enough.

i heard a lot of those were on a gravelly section of unsealed road that i was told had zero grip. another crash was when someone tried to sprint on the wrong side of the road - which was occupied by a motor vehicle at the time. i don't think he broke anything though, luckily.

lock_ wrote: Road races have been tough to do with family commitments / single car family / wife working Saturdays. Still managed to sneak in a few handicaps with the Seymour Broadford CC, worth looking up if you're after a solid country racing experience (race on every Sat afternoon, year round). Will be racing with the Northern Combine out at Newham this weekend.

if it's ever a lift that's holding you up, let me know. i've signed up for this weekend, but i might pull the pin if my foot doesn't heal up enough and also, i haven't sat on a bike for 2 weeks now, so i wouldn't expect to be competitive.

i know it sounds woulda-coulda, but i did a whole block of hard training just before i got sidelined - i was itching to get out there.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby Xplora » Tue Nov 05, 2013 10:47 am

Google FTW. I'm trying to work out the ethics behind this, I guess it does come down to the culture of the race/team/club you're riding with. I hope to get some more experience, but a bloke from Parra has taken two D grade races from myself and a mate at Waratahs sitting on the wheel in the final lap. Now, I don't have a problem with this, at the pointy end of the race - Rule 70. But working out a tactic to shut this down appears to be key. Also, I didn't see him ANYWHERE in the first 40 minutes of the race. I was up the front, but burned the whole box of matches on the prime. Classic debut failure. I'm cool with that... but it seems that threatening to sit up might be counterproductive, unless my skinny TT frame screams "this bloke doesn't have the balls to take on the bunch sprint, he won't let the bunch catch us" on the final break? Mark Houghton's pictures reveal a much skinnier Xplora than I recall in the mirror :lol:
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby thearthurdog » Tue Nov 05, 2013 4:37 pm

Each and every time you are doing a turn in a race, you need to ask yourself 'why am I doing this?' If you don't have an answer, then you have a problem. They don't give a trophy to the bloke who does the most work.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby sogood » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:05 pm

Is it a race? Or is it a training ride? Or is it a race training ride? Or is it a training race? Once defined, the rest will follow.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby macca33 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:30 pm

Timely thread this one and the following commentary is that of a VERY amateur, not real good AT ALL, around 20 races under the belt rider.....

I rode my first ever Crit the other night and pulled a few turns, indeed, did more than my fair share on the front, I believe. As the 45-minute mark closed and the bell went, I sat in around 4th-5th wheel and a bloke attacked around 1.5Km from the finish - a bit early he later conceded, as it was his first crit there too. Anyway, I caught him (supported by a few others), with around 700m to go and the pace naturally quickened. I decided - for a couple of reasons - to back off and sit up to see how the end would transpire and as I did, was absolutely amazed that there were around 15 other riders in the crit, none of whom I knew were there.....made me laugh loudly (uncontrollably) when they shot past, after I'd sat up for the final two corners.

I 'spose some do it for tactics and some do it because they are lazy and / or want to win no matter what, rather than be part of the effort. I'm not riding for sheep stations, so simply have a bit of a laugh and in all reality, the first place cash isn't going to change anyone's life - particularly at Master's club level.

I do, however, empathise with Derny's frustration.

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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby RonK » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:53 pm

I guess by that measure sprinters are schnivellers then...to think, my hero Robbie McEwen, always invisible before the last few hundred metres, and all the while I though it was a smart racing tactic , but really he was just a lousy schniveller....

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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby sogood » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:59 pm

Poor Ron!
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:06 pm

It's a race goddammit ... ride it how you want. Like Arthurdog said ... if you are on the front without a reason then you are not racing smart.
If you want a ride where everyone shares the load then join a bunch and sprint every so often for signs and coffee.
Don't critic a sprinters tactics of sitting at the back while you do all the work at the front and then coming round you at the end for the glory.


Side note :P ... you could critic the licensing system which encourages sprinters to sit at the back and come round for the sprint... those guys rarely go up a grade if they don't want to, where as the guy who breaks away and flogs himself in a breakaway is much more likely to get a promotion whether he warrants it or not.

Me... quite happy to schnivelle on many occasions... and we have no prize money in our races ever.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby ft_critical » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:29 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Me... quite happy to schnivelle [sic] on many occasions... and we have no prize money in our races ever.


Ah so they do in France and in French as well 8) snivel
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:38 pm

ft_critical wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:Me... quite happy to schnivelle [sic] on many occasions... and we have no prize money in our races ever.


Ah so they do in France and in French as well 8) snivel


Oui!... but out of the 25 or so races I have managed this year very few have end in a bunch sprint so schnivelling doesn't pay ( in flowers and wine ) so well!.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby Xplora » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:18 pm

arthurdog has pretty much said it all... take your turns, but only if you are the domestique or you have a reason to do so... feigning work and fatigue is real easy as you fade at the front on the hill ;) or ensuring you have respect in the break to be worth carrying to the line.
Funny thing is DD's acceptable tactics list is just as bad as schnivelling to me - you're either bludging or you aren't. Pretending to do things, or timing those things, to miss turns is no different to sucking rubber to the finish line, for my money. I assumed those tricks were what schnivelling was all about :lol:
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby jules21 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 4:20 am

macca33 wrote:I 'spose some do it for tactics and some do it because they are lazy and / or want to win no matter what, rather than be part of the effort.

There is no 'effort'. You can ride around at 20 kmh if you want. If you're doing 40 on the front, Im just going to sit in. Why would I burn matches sharing the work on the front? Its hard enough winning races without pointlessly expending energy.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby Xplora » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:17 am

I think it comes down to this - certain body types are going to get slaughtered if other body types are not worn out at least a little bit. I am never going to wait for a bunch sprint. You see Xplora out there, you are seeing a future breakaway attempt on wheels. I imagine it aggravates some that racing can be boring. If no one does anything except roll around like Chris Hoy waiting to go, that's no fun unless you are Hoy.
It's easy enough to shut down as long as the group are cooperative. But we get back to the point - if you don't join in, and should, you're wasting everyone's time. Thus no schnivelling.

Get strong enough to ride off the front for a lap. Problem solved.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues

Postby skull » Wed Nov 06, 2013 8:48 am

Yep. I'm not strong enough to take out a sprint from most of the guys I ride against in a crit or rr.

So I try and ride up the front as much as possible and try to get in a breakaway or at least put some hurt down so some people pop.

At the moment tho the only thing that has been going pop lately is me.

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