Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
- Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:28 am
If you have those people, you just need to deal with them during the race (there are legit ways), or forget about them.
One thing I don't get is team style racing in anything other than the top grade on the day of the race. That's just lame.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby toppity » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:34 am
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby toppity » Mon Apr 29, 2013 8:37 am
I quite enjoy it and it makes for alot of fun banter and high participation rates at our club team races. They seem to work and give us low graders a bit of a feel for what it is like to be semi-pro.Alex Simmons/RST wrote:One thing I don't get is team style racing in anything other than the top grade on the day of the race. That's just lame.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby trek52 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 10:08 am
Sure I will do my turns in a break etc but why should I do turns in a normal bunch when I dont have to ? I reckon to many people do turns that are not required for no reason. If the bunch is rolling along with no attacks or breaks at 45kmh Say What would I do a turn. If a break goes etc then I will either get in it or ride across but why waste energy for the finish if I dont have to.
*This only applies to proper races not a local club race that I believe are glorified training sessions.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby Marty Moose » Mon Apr 29, 2013 1:55 pm
+1 I like:)trek52 wrote:Firslty I have done more than my fair share of work over the years, including hundreds of Km on the front working for teams in NRS/State level races. However my views as I have gotten older have changed, yeah ok I can sprint a little bit, but I have a new theory....There are no awards for best and fairest in cycling !!!
Sure I will do my turns in a break etc but why should I do turns in a normal bunch when I dont have to ? I reckon to many people do turns that are not required for no reason. If the bunch is rolling along with no attacks or breaks at 45kmh WT? would I do a turn. If a break goes etc then I will either get in it or ride across but why waste energy for the finish if I dont have to.
*This only applies to proper races not a local club race that I believe are glorified training sessions.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby twizzle » Mon Apr 29, 2013 3:53 pm
Ooooo... that smarts!trek52 wrote:*This only applies to proper races not a local club race that I believe are glorified training sessions.
... and I won't disagree.
...real cyclists don't have squeaky chains...
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby jules21 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:01 pm
i will tend to schnivel, then use my saved energy to launch an attack. you can't work on the front and attack - or if you can - you're probably in the wrong grade (unless you're in A grade).
some people are happy to work on the front. others schnivel and wait for the bunch kick. other like to use their energy to attack. it's a game, it's meant to be fun. anyone who gets upset is doing it wrong.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby warthog1 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:22 pm
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby lock_ » Mon Apr 29, 2013 4:57 pm
- I've done it when I felt I probably should have been up a grade,
- wanted to test the waters/see how the legs felt pushing some wind (but without the commitment of a break),
- wanting to 'finish off' the legs knowing the race was pretty much over for me (not a sprinter),
- someone has to ride at the front (things get sketchy when the guy up front stops pedalling or even brakes as they dont want to work),
- make up position,
- earn a good position (you'll find a wheel easier if you do some work)
Certainly have no problem with schnivelling, very much part of racing, don't think it really needs its own made up word though. If you want to really annoy me, just throw your empty gel pack on the road.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby jules21 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:04 pm
i find this often doesn't work for me. if i pull off, or another rider comes over the top, everyone else takes their wheel and i'm left out in the wind. sometimes someone will take pity and let me in, but otherwise i have little choice but to drift back until there's a free spot.lock_ wrote:- earn a good position (you'll find a wheel easier if you do some work)
are you doing any road races lock? my season has been ruined to date by a foot infection.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby lock_ » Mon Apr 29, 2013 5:47 pm
Yeah, we're talking Coburg crits here aren't we... I'd let you in, few others would too, but not everyone. I found I'd have better results staying on the front, and hoping for someone to roll over me instead of pulling off. Yes, sometimes this did mean I'd ease up somewhat. I always made a point to roll over the guy in front, so that anyone else I dragged up the field would then either roll over me, or be left out in the wind.jules21 wrote:i find this often doesn't work for me. if i pull off, or another rider comes over the top, everyone else takes their wheel and i'm left out in the wind. sometimes someone will take pity and let me in, but otherwise i have little choice but to drift back until there's a free spot.lock_ wrote:- earn a good position (you'll find a wheel easier if you do some work)
Yes, and sorry to hear Jules. Just lately there seems to have been a stack of broken bones around the local race scene (3x collar bones in one grade at HoTW). It's not so much the pain of breakage I worry about, just the whole not riding/racing/losing fitness that really worries me. Hope it sorts itself out soon enough.jules21 wrote:are you doing any road races lock? my season has been ruined to date by a foot infection.
Road races have been tough to do with family commitments / single car family / wife working Saturdays. Still managed to sneak in a few handicaps with the Seymour Broadford CC, worth looking up if you're after a solid country racing experience (race on every Sat afternoon, year round). Will be racing with the Northern Combine out at Newham this weekend.
It's nice racing road again, etiquette/tactics/teams matter less, more-so just a race of attrition. First RR this season was a secret handicap, bunch of 25 or so was set off together. This dropped down to 5 after the first climb, no 'attacking' required. *back on topic*, I worked with the group, consisting of the regular scratch riders (which I am not) until I could no more. 'Sat on' for the last two laps, got dropped on the last climb but didn't lose too much time (minute or so). Checked my handicap after the race, hoped for my regular chopping block mark, discovered he'd put me in with scratch as he figured I'd be able to hold on. Damn. Anyway, it's ok to sit on when the handicapper expects you too, even if you don't know it .
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby jules21 » Mon Apr 29, 2013 9:08 pm
i heard a lot of those were on a gravelly section of unsealed road that i was told had zero grip. another crash was when someone tried to sprint on the wrong side of the road - which was occupied by a motor vehicle at the time. i don't think he broke anything though, luckily.lock_ wrote: Yes, and sorry to hear Jules. Just lately there seems to have been a stack of broken bones around the local race scene (3x collar bones in one grade at HoTW). It's not so much the pain of breakage I worry about, just the whole not riding/racing/losing fitness that really worries me. Hope it sorts itself out soon enough.
if it's ever a lift that's holding you up, let me know. i've signed up for this weekend, but i might pull the pin if my foot doesn't heal up enough and also, i haven't sat on a bike for 2 weeks now, so i wouldn't expect to be competitive.lock_ wrote: Road races have been tough to do with family commitments / single car family / wife working Saturdays. Still managed to sneak in a few handicaps with the Seymour Broadford CC, worth looking up if you're after a solid country racing experience (race on every Sat afternoon, year round). Will be racing with the Northern Combine out at Newham this weekend.
i know it sounds woulda-coulda, but i did a whole block of hard training just before i got sidelined - i was itching to get out there.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby Xplora » Tue Nov 05, 2013 11:47 am
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby thearthurdog » Tue Nov 05, 2013 5:37 pm
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby sogood » Tue Nov 05, 2013 6:05 pm
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby macca33 » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:30 pm
I rode my first ever Crit the other night and pulled a few turns, indeed, did more than my fair share on the front, I believe. As the 45-minute mark closed and the bell went, I sat in around 4th-5th wheel and a bloke attacked around 1.5Km from the finish - a bit early he later conceded, as it was his first crit there too. Anyway, I caught him (supported by a few others), with around 700m to go and the pace naturally quickened. I decided - for a couple of reasons - to back off and sit up to see how the end would transpire and as I did, was absolutely amazed that there were around 15 other riders in the crit, none of whom I knew were there.....made me laugh loudly (uncontrollably) when they shot past, after I'd sat up for the final two corners.
I 'spose some do it for tactics and some do it because they are lazy and / or want to win no matter what, rather than be part of the effort. I'm not riding for sheep stations, so simply have a bit of a laugh and in all reality, the first place cash isn't going to change anyone's life - particularly at Master's club level.
I do, however, empathise with Derny's frustration.
cheers
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby RonK » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:53 pm
I'm shattered...
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby sogood » Tue Nov 05, 2013 7:59 pm
RK wrote:And that is Wikipedia - I can write my own definition.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby toolonglegs » Tue Nov 05, 2013 8:06 pm
If you want a ride where everyone shares the load then join a bunch and sprint every so often for signs and coffee.
Don't critic a sprinters tactics of sitting at the back while you do all the work at the front and then coming round you at the end for the glory.
Side note ... you could critic the licensing system which encourages sprinters to sit at the back and come round for the sprint... those guys rarely go up a grade if they don't want to, where as the guy who breaks away and flogs himself in a breakaway is much more likely to get a promotion whether he warrants it or not.
Me... quite happy to schnivelle on many occasions... and we have no prize money in our races ever.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby ft_critical » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:29 pm
Ah so they do in France and in French as well sniveltoolonglegs wrote:Me... quite happy to schnivelle [sic] on many occasions... and we have no prize money in our races ever.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby toolonglegs » Tue Nov 05, 2013 9:38 pm
Oui!... but out of the 25 or so races I have managed this year very few have end in a bunch sprint so schnivelling doesn't pay ( in flowers and wine ) so well!.ft_critical wrote:Ah so they do in France and in French as well sniveltoolonglegs wrote:Me... quite happy to schnivelle [sic] on many occasions... and we have no prize money in our races ever.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby Xplora » Wed Nov 06, 2013 12:18 am
Funny thing is DD's acceptable tactics list is just as bad as schnivelling to me - you're either bludging or you aren't. Pretending to do things, or timing those things, to miss turns is no different to sucking rubber to the finish line, for my money. I assumed those tricks were what schnivelling was all about
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby jules21 » Wed Nov 06, 2013 5:20 am
There is no 'effort'. You can ride around at 20 kmh if you want. If you're doing 40 on the front, Im just going to sit in. Why would I burn matches sharing the work on the front? Its hard enough winning races without pointlessly expending energy.macca33 wrote:I 'spose some do it for tactics and some do it because they are lazy and / or want to win no matter what, rather than be part of the effort.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby Xplora » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:17 am
It's easy enough to shut down as long as the group are cooperative. But we get back to the point - if you don't join in, and should, you're wasting everyone's time. Thus no schnivelling.
Get strong enough to ride off the front for a lap. Problem solved.
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Re: Schnivelling ...and other ethical issues
Postby skull » Wed Nov 06, 2013 9:48 am
So I try and ride up the front as much as possible and try to get in a breakaway or at least put some hurt down so some people pop.
At the moment tho the only thing that has been going pop lately is me.
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