Crit season! 11t or 12t?

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Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby Pravda » Mon Dec 02, 2013 3:58 pm

Hi guys I've entered my first crit this week and I'm after some advice. What kind of ratios are you running fot crits? Currently I'm using a 12-25 10spd campag cassette with 52-39 up front. I've found this is fine for saturday group ride sprints and the few road races I've done. But I've been bumped up to b grade for this season and I'm about to order a new cassette anyway so wondered what you thought of going for 11t instead of 12t.

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by BNA » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:14 pm

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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby singlespeedscott » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:14 pm

What you got will be fine. If you can effectively spin a 52x11 then you need to think about a career as a pro level sprinter.
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby Pravda » Mon Dec 02, 2013 4:23 pm

Fair enough. Is there any value in the reduced gap between cogs of say a 23-11 or 23 -12?

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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby Derny Driver » Mon Dec 02, 2013 5:13 pm

Pravda wrote:Fair enough. Is there any value in the reduced gap between cogs of say a 23-11 or 23 -12?

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Yes. 23-12 or even 21-12 is better. You don't need a 25 cog in a crit.
As for the 11 ... my son rides A grade crits and regularly wins and places and he has never needed an 11.
I have an 11-23 on his disc wheel for TT's in tailwinds. 12 is plenty for crits. Most of the time you are punching out of a corner in the 15 and its a short burst to the line in the 14, or 13 at most.
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby cerb » Tue Dec 03, 2013 2:24 pm

Derny Driver wrote:Most of the time you are punching out of a corner in the 15 and its a short burst to the line in the 14, or 13 at most.


I think this depends on the crit circuit and speed required in your club races to win a sprint... Even running a double (53), in the 13 you need to spin over 115rpm to crack 60kph! Personally, I am usually in my 50-11 for most of the last lap as I can spin in the range 90rpm (51.2kph) to 110rpm (62.6kph) and then I don't need to change during the sprint. However, the final 2 corners at my club can be taken at 50+ as long as conditions are good. If your circuit doesn't allow that sort of speed through the final corners, then the sprint speeds might be lower and a 12 might be suitable.

52-12 puts you at 57kph at cadence of 105.
52-11 puts you at 62.2kph for the same cadence.

I run 50-11 and am having to work on improving my cadence out of the saddle to crack 60kph (105rpm = 59.8kph). Racing in C-grade at my local club, the sprint is typically in the range 57-60kph. So, I expect to have to really improve my sprint cadence or switch to a double (instead of my compact) in order to be at the right speeds when I go up to B grade!

I figure that it's easy to change gear, but it takes a long time to train your legs to spin faster - getting the 11 gives you the possibility of reaching good speeds at a lower cadence, while you simultaneously work on increasing leg speed!

Finally, I'd look back at your cadence and speed data for the final lap and sprints of previous races to determine what your limiting factor is... if you're already sprinting in a 52-12, hitting a cadence of 120rpm and not winning races, then you might need the 11!
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:16 pm

Depends on the course... if you need a 53/11 then you need a 53/11.
When I had a powermeter on I noticed my highest power out puts where from spinning up smaller gear in a really short burst ( pretty obvious really ) ... but personally I can't sustain a high cadence for long in a sprint. I prefer big gears ( with long cranks ) and long sprints.
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby Derny Driver » Tue Dec 03, 2013 4:58 pm

Cadence = speed
If you want to win sprints, pick up your cadence.
At my club, I won 11 B grade races in a row in bunch sprints, then they moved me to A grade where I placed top 5 every week. I ran 52 and 12-21 and never used the 12 cog ever. My usual sprint speed was 66kph. That's about 130rpm in 52-13.
I understand some guys like to put it in 53-11 and grind out a long sprint, out of the seat at lower cadences. But that's more suited to a long flat straight road sprint. In criteriums, spinning a good cadence is what wins races.
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:19 pm

Yeah I understand that... I can spin up to 130 easy enough in sprint training but it is very short... running longer cranks slows my cadence down a bit too ( plus means I need to run a bigger gear to be equal to a shorter crank ). But I obviously prefer long fast road sprints... when club racing in Oz these were rare, everyone plays games till 400 to go. Here in France that rarely happens... nearly always super fast the last few km's.
Actually very few crits here I am able to do, most are in July when I am at the TDF... shame as I love them, they are long though, our crits are usually a minimum of two hours ( more beer and food gets sold! ) before the 1/2/3Jnrs head out for 3 hours!.
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby march83 » Tue Dec 03, 2013 5:41 pm

yeah, unless your crit course has a steep descent in it where you could actually be pedalling into an 11t, it's far from a necessity. I personally run an 11-23, but an 11t is only ever going to get used in a sprint if you're a grinder or by accident ;)
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby Xplora » Tue Dec 03, 2013 6:33 pm

I was thinking about this myself... I use the compact because hills are steep. I was close to ditching the 11, until I raced Eastern Creek Raceway the first time. 650m of downhill to the finish at 1-2%. I hit 56kmh just trying to make sure I held a gap, and did 54kmh trying to move up. These speeds weren't "a move", I was doing everything I could to conserve energy, and I'm a stick insect on wheels. I can do 60kmh in 50/12 easy enough, but I seem to cope better grinding at 85rpm in the bunch... going 120rpm for a minute every lap (and maybe more) is a recipe for disaster for me.

Derny Driver is on the money - if you are relying on 250m bursts of power, then spinning up is the most effective way of doing it. If you are trying to cruise along with long downhills, then you might be poorly served by the 12 cog.
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby toolonglegs » Tue Dec 03, 2013 7:05 pm

Eastern Creek is a crit track when they do the short circuit... 70kmph sprint on the right day... try doing that in a 50/12 :P
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby Xplora » Tue Dec 03, 2013 8:18 pm

:lol: yep, I was trying so hard to hold back because everything in your brain says "THUNDERBIRDS ARE GOOOOOOOOOOOOOO" :mrgreen:
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby Derny Driver » Tue Dec 03, 2013 9:24 pm

I think we are getting off the topic .... there is probably only one "crit course" in Australia with a 650 metre downhill straight.
The OP is riding B grade crits in Perth. Is 52-12 big enough?
Yes.

My son came 2nd in the sprint at Cronulla crit on Saturday, State B grade, 400 metre downhill sprint, had a 12-25 and I don't think he even used the 12 there. Was beaten by former Oceania rep rider.
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby Pravda » Wed Dec 04, 2013 1:14 pm

Wow this has moved on since I last checked!
I'm racing a crit this weekend, I know the course is pancake flat but I'm not exactly sure what it's like as far as corners etc.
Will race and report back.
I'm fairly certain the 25-12 will be fine.
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby brendan c » Wed Dec 04, 2013 10:00 pm

add sandown on a hot night to the 11t club
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby nickobec » Wed Dec 04, 2013 11:29 pm

I would add Wangara with a southerly, Parklands (4km crit circuit, with 500m descent 1.5km from finish), Motorplex circuit as used on Thursday night with a Fremantle doctor as 11t circuits. (500m plus at 60kph plus)

Couple of A graders I ride with rate Smeaton Way with an easterly as an 11t circuit, both ran out on 50/12 on separate occasions.

So that leaves Tech Park, Kewdale and Motorplex car park circuit as 12t circuits in WA
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby Pravda » Thu Dec 05, 2013 11:54 am

How about the speeddome circuit nick? I'm guessing probably 12

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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby Pravda » Sun Dec 08, 2013 11:27 pm

Quivk report. 12-25t was fine. Raced c grade and topped out at just over 50kmh. Course is very short with a few tight corners. Shoild be a different story next week in b graded on a longer course. Still think I'll be fine though.

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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby nickobec » Mon Dec 09, 2013 12:34 am

Pravda wrote:How about the speeddome circuit nick? I'm guessing probably 12

Never raced speeddome

Which circuit next week?

Technology park, Kewdale or Motorplex all at 12t, you will hit 50 again, but not likely to hit 60 except in final sprint. At Tech park you do not want to hit 60 downhill with that off camber corner.
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby Xplora » Mon Dec 09, 2013 7:05 am

Keep us updated prav.

I spent the important part of Friday in 22/20 and it was still too high ;)

At Lansdowne yesterday, I noted that I was having to push the speed down the flip flop and I wouldn't have tickled the 14, let alone 13 or 12. Or the 11 lol. I reckon half of my 11 fetish is making the little ring more useable. Much nicer to cruise z2 in the little ring.
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby Pravda » Mon Dec 09, 2013 9:03 am

nickobec wrote:Which circuit next week?

Technology park, Kewdale or Motorplex all at 12t, you will hit 50 again, but not likely to hit 60 except in final sprint. At Tech park you do not want to hit 60 downhill with that off camber corner.


Tech Park is next week, racing the Summer Series in B Grade. I've been warned a few times about 'the corner' at Tech Park. Will be on the look out. You're not racing that series Nick?

Xplora: I was in the 13t yesterday and I'm guessing will end up in the 12 this week coming, especially since I'm up a grade. Will see how it goes.
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby nickobec » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:40 am

Pravda wrote:Tech Park is next week, racing the Summer Series in B Grade. I've been warned a few times about 'the corner' at Tech Park. Will be on the look out.

Depending on how it goes you maybe stepping up "two" grades. Last time I raced at Tech Park, Australia Day crits I lasted 15 minutes of the 25 minute D grade race and there was only 7 riders left of the 25 who started when I got dropped. Friends who are good C grade racers did not last that long in C, it was a hard day at the races.

I watched A grade at that corner, and almost every lap a rider would have to hop the kerb because they went in too hot.

Pravda wrote:You're not racing that series Nick?

No, Peel have crits every Sunday (except for Chrissy, New Year break) so I will race them, plus a WCMCC crit in the break, the Australia Day crit and any other race that does not clash.

Except maybe the Motorplex crit this Thursday, 4 races in 5 days is a too much for me.
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby Pravda » Mon Dec 09, 2013 10:46 am

Fair enough mate. It's a long way to come to take a belting. I should be part of a team for this one so hopefully it'll make it a little easier.

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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby nickobec » Sun Dec 22, 2013 9:58 pm

Hi Ben

Was it you who took out C grade at Tech Park today?

Would an 11t helped in the final sprint?
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Re: Crit season! 11t or 12t?

Postby Pravda » Thu Jan 02, 2014 11:57 am

Haha yeah yeah. Won it in the 14t I think, sitting down to boot!

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