Industry views on road discs

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Industry views on road discs

Postby trailgumby » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:48 am

Interesting interviews on BIkeRadar.

Is it hype, or do they believe what they're saying? You be the judge.

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by BNA » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:56 am

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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby mitchy_ » Sat Jan 18, 2014 11:56 am

after having a similar discussion with someone who is of the opinion that discs aren't required, and riders should just ride to the conditions... i agree with the start of the video, you can never have too much brake.
perhaps that stems from taking cars to the track and mountain bikes, but i'd rather have too much than too little.
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Industry views on road discs

Postby RonK » Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:03 pm

When the industry all starts singing the same tune, you know they have spotted a marketing opportunity - in this case not just to sell disc brakes, but to sell disc brake specific bikes.

So yes, dollar-driven marketing hype.

But the hype is lost on me - I don't feel any need for discs on my roadie, so I won't be rushing out to buy a new bike just to have disc brakes.
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby Roub » Sat Jan 18, 2014 12:09 pm

Absolutely disc brakes will be a good thing for road bikes - a few +v and -v, but if I could have gone straight to carbon clinchers with dics I would have. As I did not want to change frames (whole bike really as gruppos will be different) I have Roval CLX40's after researching and deciding those and Enves have probably the most robust brake tracks for mountain decents and everyday use.

However in the wet they are dangerous.

Discs will eliminate this, but also eliminate risks of brake track failures of the wheels (both alu and carbon) and reduce rolling mass of the wheels as they can be made lighter.

Downside is forks need to be beefed up meaning more weight there and also the brakes themselves will be heavier. They definitely are fiddlier for maintenance and bleeding of these systems will be tedious. But pads will last much longer too

Consistency and modulation far better as well

I love discs on the MTB
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby lobstermash » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:18 pm

RonK wrote:When the industry all starts singing the same tune, you know they have spotted a marketing opportunity - in this case not just to sell disc brakes, but to sell disc brake specific bikes.

So yes, dollar-driven marketing hype.

But the hype is lost on me - I don't feel any need for discs on my roadie, so I won't be rushing out to buy a new bike just to have disc brakes.


I'm with you. Call me cynical, but it seems like yet another way to try and get you to buy a whole new bike...
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby biker jk » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:21 pm

Well Sram has just blown US$10-15 million in the recall of its hydraulic road disc brakes. Clearly, they believe there's some massive future sales in this. Time will tell.
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby mitchy_ » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:30 pm

Roub wrote:Discs will eliminate this, but also eliminate risks of brake track failures of the wheels (both alu and carbon) and reduce rolling mass of the wheels as they can be made lighter.

Downside is forks need to be beefed up meaning more weight there and also the brakes themselves will be heavier. They definitely are fiddlier for maintenance and bleeding of these systems will be tedious. But pads will last much longer too

Consistency and modulation far better as well

I love discs on the MTB


whether the rims will drop much weight, i doubt.. but at the moment disc hubs are heavier than non-disc hubs. i've just ordered some 50mm carbon clinchers on disc hubs, they are ~1600 grams. the same version with a non-disc hub is about 1500 grams. that said though, the weight is in the hub, which being at the very centre is less influential to rotating mass.

lobstermash wrote:I'm with you. Call me cynical, but it seems like yet another way to try and get you to buy a whole new bike...


no-one is forcing you to buy into it, nor is it going to be a complete change to disc brakes... purely another option for the rider.
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby Duck! » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:37 pm

I suspect there was much the same sentiment way back when discs were the Big New Thing in the MTB world, and look how widespread they are there now. Embracing new developments is not a bad thing, and it keeps mechanics like me entertained. :-)
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby biker jk » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:44 pm

Duck! wrote:I suspect there was much the same sentiment way back when discs were the Big New Thing in the MTB world, and look how widespread they are there now. Embracing new developments is not a bad thing, and it keeps mechanics like me entertained. :-)


I think you meant "employed" rather than "entertained".
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby Duck! » Sat Jan 18, 2014 1:52 pm

There's plenty of "old-school" tech around to keep us employed. New stuff is fun, hence "entertained". :wink:
I had a thought, but it got run over as it crossed my mind.
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby lobstermash » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:13 pm

mitchy_ wrote:
lobstermash wrote:I'm with you. Call me cynical, but it seems like yet another way to try and get you to buy a whole new bike...


no-one is forcing you to buy into it, nor is it going to be a complete change to disc brakes... purely another option for the rider.


It's not myself that I'm worried about... On the upside, bikesnobnyc will get plenty of mileage out of it, so for that I can be grateful for such 'innovation'.

I should confess that my mtb does not have disc brakes. Gawd, it's even a 26er...
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby Nobody » Sat Jan 18, 2014 4:50 pm

trailgumby wrote:Is it hype, or do they believe what they're saying?
I think they believe what they're saying. The Giant guy was talking almost like it had already happened. Maybe he knows something he can't let on. Either way, it doesn't matter to me much as I've had a disc on the front of my CX/road bike for almost 4 years.

I'm surprised noone mentioned aero differences since this is usually a bigger drag factor for most people on road than weight over a whole ride. Weight is overrated IMO.
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby Duck! » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:07 pm

Any aero "concern" I reckon would be a moot point, 'cos in most situations the airflow around there is already pretty chewed up. In any case, by far the biggest aero concern is the blob on the saddle.... In the real world, the only discipline that really worries itself with aero is TT. And given the nature of the events, TT bikes don't need that degree of braking, so I highly doubt we'll be seeing disc brakes there any time soon.
Last edited by Duck! on Sat Jan 18, 2014 6:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby Nobody » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:35 pm

Duck! wrote:Any aero "concern" I reckon would be a moot point, 'cos in most situations the airflow around there is already pretty chewed up. In any case, by far the biggest aero concern is the blob on the saddle.... In the real world, the only discipline that really worries itself with aero is TT. And given the nature of the events, TT bikes don't need that degree of braking, so I highly doubt we'll be deeing disc brakes there any time soon.

http://road.cc/content/feature/83327-di ... -more-aero
http://www.bikerumor.com/2013/03/20/fir ... -unveiled/

I think road/TT disc aerodynamics will get better as time goes on.
Last edited by Nobody on Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby Strawburger » Sat Jan 18, 2014 5:37 pm

In a racing perspective, the only time I use my brakes is when approaching a 90deg or sharper turn and when lining up for the start line. Both occasions should never need hard braking. The pros would use hard braking when there is a crash. That is the only time I can think a rider would need powerful braking in a race situation.

Training is a different situation, but you don't see the pros training on TV, and that's where the companies have their greatest exposure for their products.
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby trailgumby » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:09 pm

RonK wrote:When the industry all starts singing the same tune, you know they have spotted a marketing opportunity - in this case not just to sell disc brakes, but to sell disc brake specific bikes.

So yes, dollar-driven marketing hype.

But the hype is lost on me - I don't feel any need for discs on my roadie, so I won't be rushing out to buy a new bike just to have disc brakes.

Interesting.

There's another vid taken at the same trade show with mostly the same heads on the death of the 26er mountain bike but nowhere near the unanimity on whether 650b or 29er will dominate henceforth.

Giant thinks 650b all the way but the others are saying it depends on rider size, amount of suspension travel, and whether outright speed and stability, or nimble responsiveness is the priority.

The only thing they agreed on was that 26ers are gone except for DJ, perhaps big travel DH, and entry level BSO.

So I'm not of the view they're trying to jawbone the direction of the market, more trying to position themselves in the river's flow.

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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby RonK » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:36 pm

trailgumby wrote:... I'm not of the view they're trying to jawbone the direction of the market, more trying to position themselves in the river's flow.


For this to be true the consumer would have to be driving the market. I find this quite difficult to believe.
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby Calvin27 » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:38 pm

I fall into the 'grew up with a disc mtb' mob. I like discs for the feel and braking in all conditions. Sure there still teething issues so far but the technology will reach maturity soon.

The big message that hit home is the reference to discs being used for all rotational stuff. I hate the thought to rebuilding or buying a new wheel set just because the braking surface is used.
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Jan 18, 2014 7:48 pm

Strawburger wrote:In a racing perspective, the only time I use my brakes is when approaching a 90deg or sharper turn and when lining up for the start line. Both occasions should never need hard braking. The pros would use hard braking when there is a crash. That is the only time I can think a rider would need powerful braking in a race situation.

Training is a different situation, but you don't see the pros training on TV, and that's where the companies have their greatest exposure for their products.


See I see it the other way... I am not in a hurry to see discs in races, but when they are the norm ( which I think they will be ) it will be a good thing. In training you can ride to the conditions, In a race you can't as easily, you ride to stay in the race. Carbon rims are crap for emergency braking in the wet. Especially when half the bunch has alloy rims. Yes I expect it will be worse when discs first come into the peloton with very unequal braking especially in the wet.
Also personally not having to worry about over heating rims will be a good thing... maybe I see it more than most, not in racing because most are on tubs, but incidents I have seen with tyres exploding on descents have not been pretty.
I am not worried about a few extra grams. Aero ... well they are hardly going to be needed on TT bikes where it would actually matter. Wheel changes might be a tiny bit slower, but that is hardly an issue most of the time... and when it is thats what a team car is for!.
Yes they are going to be pushed by manufacturers, but in a few years they will be totally the norm. But if you don't ride your bike near the limit then you won't really need them... although you might wish you had them in those one or two emergency situations.
One downside I see is that they go hand and hand with electrical gear shifting...just so much easier to fit the hydraulics into the levers without a bulky mechanical shifter mech.
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby ldrcycles » Sat Jan 18, 2014 8:57 pm

lobstermash wrote:
RonK wrote:When the industry all starts singing the same tune, you know they have spotted a marketing opportunity - in this case not just to sell disc brakes, but to sell disc brake specific bikes.

So yes, dollar-driven marketing hype.

But the hype is lost on me - I don't feel any need for discs on my roadie, so I won't be rushing out to buy a new bike just to have disc brakes.


I'm with you. Call me cynical, but it seems like yet another way to try and get you to buy a whole new bike...


+2, I hate discs with a passion and I think just like 29ers and 650B MTBs, it's just the industry working sheeple into a frenzy over something "new" that they can't possibly do without :evil: .
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Industry views on road discs

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:04 pm

They are just bits of round metal...hate should be reserved for things that actually matter ;-)
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby cyclotaur » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:19 pm

A fellow rider has been trying to convince me on disc brakes for awhile (he has them on his CX bike). I'm not totally convinced as I really don't need that sort if braking power.

But, along with 11 speed, newer things can be attractive. But I do like to swap wheels around (I have 3 sets I use regularly) and this could be more expensive with disc-ed wheels - or am I wrong ?


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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby RonK » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:23 pm

toolonglegs wrote:They are just bits of round metal...hate should be reserved for things that actually matter ;-)

Why - I'm sure there are those who will say they "love" them.
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby Strawburger » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:36 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
Strawburger wrote:In a racing perspective, the only time I use my brakes is when approaching a 90deg or sharper turn and when lining up for the start line. Both occasions should never need hard braking. The pros would use hard braking when there is a crash. That is the only time I can think a rider would need powerful braking in a race situation.

Training is a different situation, but you don't see the pros training on TV, and that's where the companies have their greatest exposure for their products.


See I see it the other way... I am not in a hurry to see discs in races, but when they are the norm ( which I think they will be ) it will be a good thing. In training you can ride to the conditions, In a race you can't as easily, you ride to stay in the race. Carbon rims are crap for emergency braking in the wet. Especially when half the bunch has alloy rims. Yes I expect it will be worse when discs first come into the peloton with very unequal braking especially in the wet.
Also personally not having to worry about over heating rims will be a good thing... maybe I see it more than most, not in racing because most are on tubs, but incidents I have seen with tyres exploding on descents have not been pretty.
I am not worried about a few extra grams. Aero ... well they are hardly going to be needed on TT bikes where it would actually matter. Wheel changes might be a tiny bit slower, but that is hardly an issue most of the time... and when it is thats what a team car is for!.
Yes they are going to be pushed by manufacturers, but in a few years they will be totally the norm. But if you don't ride your bike near the limit then you won't really need them... although you might wish you had them in those one or two emergency situations.
One downside I see is that they go hand and hand with electrical gear shifting...just so much easier to fit the hydraulics into the levers without a bulky mechanical shifter mech.


True, I didn't think of the discs on 30+ min descents. That's a biggie. I'm small enough to run Alu rims so carbons didn't come into my equation. What's the heat dissapation like on massive descents? Do they create enough heat to cause issues elsewhere near the metal discs?
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Re: Industry views on road discs

Postby mitchy_ » Sat Jan 18, 2014 9:43 pm

Strawburger wrote:True, I didn't think of the discs on 30+ min descents. That's a biggie. I'm small enough to run Alu rims so carbons didn't come into my equation. What's the heat dissapation like on massive descents? Do they create enough heat to cause issues elsewhere near the metal discs?


they can begin to heat the caliper and fluid, but you can go to aluminium sandwich rotors, rotors with aluminium spiders, finned rotors, finned brake pads, or worst comes to worst, go up a rotor size to avoid such things.
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