Cycling Australia extortion 2015

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skull
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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby skull » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:40 am

KGB wrote:But where can you race?


Was that to me?

The ACTVCC run Road Races throughout the ACT and just outside in NSW. Around Dairy Flat, Tharwa, Uriarra, Gunning, Federal Hwy. They also have crit races every Tuesday during daylight savings.

http://rms.actvets.cc/#

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Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jan 22, 2015 1:14 pm

CKinnard wrote:I was involved, and got fed up with the prevailing culture of arrogance and ignorance. And I've watched at least 5 other quality guys walk away due to concerns about safety and not being given a fair hearing by the inner sanctum, and their nepotism.

It sounds like you are assuming all clubs are the same.

Have you or your mates spoken with other local clubs to see if there is one more suited to your tastes? If the problem is as widespread and bad as you seem to be implying (which I find hard to believe) then if there's enough of you, you are permitted to form your own association and set up your own culture. Run a good club and riders will gravitate your way.

Do some research before joining a club, take time to get to know the people. Usually that's a good way to assess a club before joining. If you get the cold shoulder first up, well you kind of know what you're in for and know to look elsewhere.

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KGB
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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby KGB » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:09 pm

skull wrote:
KGB wrote:But where can you race?


Was that to me?

The ACTVCC run Road Races throughout the ACT and just outside in NSW. Around Dairy Flat, Tharwa, Uriarra, Gunning, Federal Hwy. They also have crit races every Tuesday during daylight savings.

http://rms.actvets.cc/#


Yes, thanks for the reply. If it was a real option in sydney, I'd definitely consider it.

After reading the previous page, I have now heard of ONE person who has been happy with the CA accident insurance. Most say it is a nightmare to get any money out of it after a crash, if you get anything at all.

Regarding jerseys/uniforms, I'm all for wearing club gear or plain gear. Support those who support your club.
My problem is COST - clearly you can't ride nude and people seem happy to spend up big on that most hideous fluoro garb they can find so for many, it can't be that bad. However, when a club changes uniforms (usually due to sponsors) every couple of seasons our whatever, club gear needs to be CHEAP! Put at least some sponsor money towards subsidising uniform cost, make it cheap and get it on everyone's backs. After racing with the same club for 25yrs, I don't own current club gear for this very reason. /rant.
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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Parker » Thu Jan 22, 2015 4:53 pm

I agree with KGB, kit needs to be affordable.

A tri club that I help out recently looked at changing suppliers and it was agreed that we would stick with what was more affordable to everyone because the discussion was simply that Triathlon was already expensive enough.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Derny Driver » Thu Jan 22, 2015 5:25 pm

KGB wrote:.

After reading the previous page, I have now heard of ONE person who has been happy with the CA accident insurance. Most say it is a nightmare to get any money out of it after a crash, if you get anything at all.
.

I take teams to overseas tours and have had quite a lot of riders hospitalised in foreign countries due to crashes, sickness etc. On one tour I had 6 out of 8 riders in hospital. Never had a problem with the CA payouts for the doctors bills, hospital bills etc.
Last year I had a bloke break his pelvis during a race which required weeks hospitalisation, rescheduled flights and a nurse to accompany him and his wheelchair on 2 flights to Australia, as well as a long road trip home from Sydney airport. All up it was about $80,000 worth of medivac. Again, no problem.
Probably helps when the overseas Federation is in contact with CA rather than just an individual member, but I have had no issues and the insurance has been well worth the money.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Chuck » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:08 pm

Just to add to r2160 and Derny Driver's posts-

I had a crit accident in 2009 and broke my collar bone. I was admitted as a public patient so there were no real out of pocket expenses to take care of but I was off work for 9 weeks. Being a shift worker this resulted in a considerable loss of money for me, the difference between "master roster" and sick pay or "flat money" is quite substantial. After filling out the forms and getting written confirmation from my payroll officer I was pleasantly surprised when I received a rather nice cheque in the mail which more than adequately covered for my lost earnings.

It was a good, hassle free experience.
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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby warthog1 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 4:32 pm

Got to be happy with that Chuck :)

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby dalai47 » Fri Jan 23, 2015 5:51 pm

Chuck wrote:It was a good, hassle free experience.


Glad to hear, as I am about to submit the paperwork for my collarbone! :|

As to cycling clubs not delivering - it comes down to the members to make things happen. Remember everyone making things happen are volunteering their time, and unfortunately at least at my club only the same small number of members are stepping up to help!

For a number of years I would just race and only due the minimum required volunteering; grumbling at races when things such as the timing was messed up or races didn't keep to schedules etc. Then a few years ago I reluctantly stepped up to be a race director at the 11th hour for an Open event run by my club, as they were about to cancel the event if no one filled the position...

What an eye opener. :shock: The number of people and hours required behind the scenes to organise just one race is astounding! The whole process starts over 6 months out; having to organise the TMP's, all the necessary approvals from VicRoads, Police, Councils, sponsors, volunteers for both the preparation and for on the day etc!

I have done this race now two years running (though last year missed out on the race weekend as I had my operation a few days prior) and can say it doesn't get easier nor require less hours! So if you want things to change in a club step forward and not just offer suggestions actually offer to physically do something about it!

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby DaSchmooze » Mon Jan 26, 2015 8:02 pm

A perspective from a Noob:

I joined Sydney CC last year but didnt race or engage with the club due to other commitments. Decided to do it again this year and get my act together and be more proactive.

For my Masters licence fee I get:

- the ability to race in good races at a variety of events around Sydney
- appropriate grading for my ability (and belly size :))
- cheerful ribbing from club mates in higher grades telling me to "Stop bludging at the back!" hehehehehe
- a club that has welcomed me both at races, via email and facebook
- structured training and I'm already seeing an improvement
- an insurance cover that covers me at all times
- a kit that identifies me as a member of this great club which I am proud to wear at races and training


All of this for the price of a nice stem or carbon setapost is an absolute bargain.

Try taking your barely talented child to a level of soccer above "park grade" and see how much change you'l get out of $4000 - and that's per grade they play in.
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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Xplora » Sat Jan 31, 2015 2:23 pm

I appreciate the concerns about cost but let's face it. Crit racing is dangerous. Insurance ain't cheap. I feel the rage is directed at the sport rather than CA. Reality is that racing is not expensive and NSW at least is very inclusive of people wanting to race. I am part of the leadership group that just started NWSCC and it is a big undertaking requiring enormous hard yards to get moving. We have a goal of racing by winter but even that looks to be a challenge.

I baulk at the cost of the licence but I spend just as much on Velosure to cover race accidents, plus skin suits are 200 bucks each, but I also take supplements and pay race fees - not to mention the thousands spent on these bike (s). And coffee, don't forget coffee.
Despite all this out is cheaper than driving a dodgy car everyday to work or smoking regularly. Life costs money, and I don't complain that I can't afford cars I see on top gear. I dont complain about being unable to afford custom or team bikes. That is life, and adult competition is not cheap. You have to pay to play.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby gaz0303 » Wed Feb 04, 2015 4:20 pm

MTBA fee for the year is $115 plus $15 club fee, or $300 for 3 years. Am I missing something obvious in the level of service provided by Cycling Australia compared to MTBA or inherent risks racing downhill rather than on a public road?

Anyone know how much the CA upgrade is to a MTBA license? CA Website says 'contact us'.

It would be good if a could purchase a general sport insurance, i.e. one that covered MTB, road cycling, football, cricket etc, and then just pay association fees.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby macca33 » Thu Feb 05, 2015 10:45 am

[quote="DaSchmooze"]A perspective from a Noob:

I joined Sydney CC last year but didnt race or engage with the club due to other commitments. Decided to do it again this year and get my act together and be more proactive.

For my Masters licence fee I get:

- the ability to race in good races at a variety of events around Sydney
- appropriate grading for my ability (and belly size :))
- cheerful ribbing from club mates in higher grades telling me to "Stop bludging at the back!" hehehehehe
- a club that has welcomed me both at races, via email and facebook
- structured training and I'm already seeing an improvement
- an insurance cover that covers me at all times
- a kit that identifies me as a member of this great club which I am proud to wear at races and training[quote]


This is an apt description of Warragul CC - only difference is the fact that we're a long way south from you and are a country club! There is a great sense of pride in being involved in a friendly, welcoming club with committed membership. For those with less than favourable expeirneces, try another club if you can - you may be pleasantly surprised.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Kev365428 » Mon Feb 09, 2015 12:36 pm

Chuck wrote:Just to add to r2160 and Derny Driver's posts-

I had a crit accident in 2009 and broke my collar bone. I was admitted as a public patient so there were no real out of pocket expenses to take care of but I was off work for 9 weeks. Being a shift worker this resulted in a considerable loss of money for me, the difference between "master roster" and sick pay or "flat money" is quite substantial. After filling out the forms and getting written confirmation from my payroll officer I was pleasantly surprised when I received a rather nice cheque in the mail which more than adequately covered for my lost earnings.

It was a good, hassle free experience.


Yeah, except for the poor bloke behind you who endo'd over your bike and cracked two ribs and couldn't cough or sneeze for 8 weeks.

:(

Kev.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby barefoot » Mon Feb 09, 2015 3:47 pm

My club is affiliated through CA and MTBA.

I'm a club member, licensed through MTBA. I race the weekly dirt crit series through summer, and maybe one or two other club level races per year. That costs me about $140 per year, most of which goes to MTBA (most of which goes into insurance which is a necessary evil). The club gets the remainder, plus my race entries. I bit the bullet and paid for 3 years in one hit last time, which saves me a token amount in discount.

I don't race road or track [1], because to do so would mean I need to cough up an additional truckload of money, for very little. I think I can get away with a Regional Masters license for $196 instead of the full $251 if I want to race state championships or NRS (shyeah right). That gets me duplicate insurance that I don't need. Maybe the club would give me a discount because I don't need to be a member twice. But for a couple of club races a year... nah, if I get around to turning up for a few races, I'll see how many day licenses I can take out before I get banned.

I know the history of how MTBA came into existence [2], and the background of the long standing split. But from where I sit, it's just a little bit bullsh!t that some twenty years later, our organisations still can't get their act together, call a truce, and introduce a common unified licensing system. I'm not going to pay hundreds of dollars to join an extra organisation just to have a crack at an additional style of bike racing.

We also have an active local Veterans club, where another few of my road bunch race. I think I'm more likely to join them than pay the annual CA extortion. I'd be a member of one club for MTB and a different club altogether for road. Great. Still leaves me without an official legit way to ride track. Pffft. Screw 'em all.

tim

[1] Truth is, we have a bit of a track session on the local velodrome (where the club meeting room and bike shed are) each week over summer, including a bit of not-very-serious racing. No sheepstations involved, and nobody is checking licenses (maybe a dont-ask-dont-tell situation)... I'm not sure where we'd all stand if there was a serious accident that got as far as an insurance claim. Shhhhh.

[2] Basically, CA refused to take an interest in those scruffy hooligans who fail to comply with UCI sock height regulations while riding toy bikes in the bush, effectively forcing the mountain bikers into starting their own organisation to govern MTB racing. That was around the same time that some scruffy hooligan by the name of Evans started winning junior world cups on his cross-country mountain bike, proving forever that there's no cross-over between "proper" CA-sanctioned road / track cycling and this silly fad of riding bikes with fat tyres.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby nezumi » Mon Feb 09, 2015 7:10 pm

Coming from a background of other sports, I understand the necessity of the insurance - but what is the difference between having this insurance on a personal level and having it through CA?

I feel that if you can provide a certificate of currency for the indemnity cover etc, it should be OK. This comes about because people will be more likely to have their own insurance for cycling than for other sports (e.g. baseball, which I also play).
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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Xplora » Mon Feb 09, 2015 10:10 pm

Th first exclusion of every policy is Racing. There is good value of the entire sport being covered by the same policy for CA events. I get the point but it is completely unworkable. Certificate of currency as you throw 5 bucks at the table and pin a number on? No thanks.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby nezumi » Tue Feb 10, 2015 6:45 pm

Xplora wrote:Th first exclusion of every policy is Racing. There is good value of the entire sport being covered by the same policy for CA events. I get the point but it is completely unworkable. Certificate of currency as you throw 5 bucks at the table and pin a number on? No thanks.


More in the order of certificate of currency when you get your race licence, and pay CA the funds required to meet their administration costs.
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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Xplora » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:16 pm

Given CA is not a wealthy organisation, I can't see them having time to chase up such things. It's a legal document, and you have no way of knowing it will resolve the problem.

It seems like you want any reason to abandon their insurance :lol:

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Kev365428 » Tue Feb 10, 2015 7:49 pm

Soooo many good ideas here.
Some of you guys should start a rebel organisation, set up national events for both road and track, administer the sport at a national level while catering for teams to compete internationally, police the rules, cover all the checks and balances that the Federal Government require you to have regarding doping, working with children etc, and then charge $3.50 to join.

You'd make millions. :roll:

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Xplora » Tue Feb 10, 2015 9:54 pm

Reading through the Cycling racing guide from the RTA/RMS... Membership to Cycling NSW or Triathlon NSW a requirement for getting permission to race on public roads in NSW. Rebel org won't work in NSW.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby ironhanglider » Tue Feb 10, 2015 11:25 pm

Xplora wrote:Reading through the Cycling racing guide from the RTA/RMS... Membership to Cycling NSW or Triathlon NSW a requirement for getting permission to race on public roads in NSW. Rebel org won't work in NSW.


And yet there are at least 3 AVCC affiliated clubs that run authorised races in NSW. Perhaps their handbook info is different to the what the rules actually are, wouldn't be the first time.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby foo on patrol » Wed Feb 11, 2015 6:18 am

I'm going to join the Vets = $100 and race in a few races through the year, before making my come back to Track in December. [emoji106]

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby g-boaf » Wed Feb 11, 2015 8:32 am

barefoot wrote:
[1]I'm not sure where we'd all stand if there was a serious accident that got as far as an insurance claim. Shhhhh.


That's the worry there. And who is running it? And what happens to them if someone who doesn't have a license is in a sprint for a points race and gets involved in a big crash and multiple riders go down.

Not a good situation.

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barefoot
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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby barefoot » Wed Feb 11, 2015 10:00 am

g-boaf wrote:
barefoot wrote:
[1]I'm not sure where we'd all stand if there was a serious accident that got as far as an insurance claim. Shhhhh.


That's the worry there. And who is running it? And what happens to them if someone who doesn't have a license is in a sprint for a points race and gets involved in a big crash and multiple riders go down.

Not a good situation.


True.

But it's a reasonably small community, everybody knows everybody, and I'd be surprised if any of the usual suspects at track days didn't have club membership and a license of some kind. Still... Ass - u - me.

I've done a minute or so of digging, and it seems like the insurance coverage (through AON) is a policy formed jointly for/by CA and MTBA. So I have exactly the same insurance through my MTBA license as what I would have if I added a CA license to the collection. And given that there is no formal timekeeping, scrutineering, recording of results... I'd put forward the argument, your honour, that what we're doing on the track is training. Personally, I'm training for MTB races.

MTBA website refers to a discounted "MTBA Value Add" membership of CA, but I can't find any mention of it on CA website. Might have been discontinued, or be there for the asking if you call. I should look into that. I assume it would just cover the administrative expense, given that MTBA members don't need to double up on the insurance and club membership portions. MTBA has a corresponding membership option (discounted for existing CA members), so it would make sense for it to be available both ways... although few people have accused CA of doing things that makes sense :-P

Nonetheless, my point remains. There shouldn't need to be separate governing bodies for "cycling" and MTB. MTB is cycling, just as much as track and road are cycling. Incorporate MTBA as a sub-committee of CA. Get rid of the duplications. Let me buy one license.

Arguably, same goes for BMX, although that's not my scene so I know nothing about the role of BMXA.

tim

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby kenwstr » Fri Feb 13, 2015 1:16 pm

On a previous comment about cost vs lack of services provided by CA.

I only cycle for exercise and was considering getting into racing to maintain motivation but can only do the clubs winter program as that is on Saturdays. Trouble is CA racing licence only goes on calender 6 month or year and doesn't synch with the club program. That means I would have to get a year licence and the other 1/2 of it goes to subsidize some international high flyers ambitions. Well I have been through that in other sports in which the associations finally realized their dwindling membership base meant they had to offer ordinary members value for money like everyone else. Apparently that hasn't happened in cycling yet. Well I can get my motivation on strava thanks.

Ken

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