Cycling Australia extortion 2015

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Alex Simmons/RST
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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:25 pm

wrt the wearing of club kit - you are permitted to wear plain colour kit if you don't want to race in club kit. You can't however wear kit with non-sanctioned advertisements or design in races.

Consider the sponsors that put their money into the clubs and sport - if people can wear whatever promo kit they liked at races, then sponsors would be far less likely to bother putting money into clubs.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Parker » Wed Jan 21, 2015 7:43 pm

Totally aware of the sponsors, the point is that cycling is an elitist sport and in order for cycling Australia to do better and provide more opportunities it needs to get less elitist and that starts by saying in the lower grades it doesn't matter what you wear. Give people an opportunity to get stuck in and then buy the kit, heavens, money doesn't grow on trees and bicycles are expensive enough as it is.

Go to a triathlon and you can wear whatever you want, plenty of sponsors there.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:15 pm

Parker wrote:Totally aware of the sponsors, the point is that cycling is an elitist sport and in order for cycling Australia to do better and provide more opportunities it needs to get less elitist and that starts by saying in the lower grades it doesn't matter what you wear. Give people an opportunity to get stuck in and then buy the kit, heavens, money doesn't grow on trees and bicycles are expensive enough as it is.

Go to a triathlon and you can wear whatever you want, plenty of sponsors there.

You can wear any plain colour kit you like.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby CKinnard » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:18 pm

A lot of masters cyclists in my neck of the woods try racing for 2 years, then disappear.

Most don't bother rejoining for the same reason as me.
- CA has no systems, apparent knowledge or experience, or concerrn at reducing the risk of crashing for noob masters cyclists.
- Club handicapping sucks with 50+ yo C graders being regularly pitted against noob 20 somethings, because B grade is too precious to take noobs straight into their races.
- CA health insurance is a joke. read it!

I mean seriously, what does the average masters club racer get from CA?

Myself and many ex racers now get our competitive kicks either doing Strava segments or during 'race' training at the free local city council criterium track. There's also more 'private road racing' being organized. It gets around the BS of applying for Police approval and paying an arm and leg for road traffic controllers.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Jan 21, 2015 8:54 pm

CKinnard wrote:- CA has no systems, apparent knowledge or experience, or concerrn at reducing the risk of crashing for noob masters cyclists.

Just exactly what systems do you think CA should put in place?

This is the sort of things clubs are for. CA provide a very accessible coaching skills accreditation program to arm experienced club members with the ability to do just this very thing.

CKinnard wrote:- Club handicapping sucks with 50+ yo C graders being regularly pitted against noob 20 somethings, because B grade is too precious to take noobs straight into their races.

Club handicapping is a club matter, what on earth does that have to do with CA? Have you offered to help the club's handicapper out?

Open race handicapping is a state matter. In NSW it's the responsibility of each club to provide up to date handicap information to the state handicapper and the individual to make sure their information is up to date. So if a handicap sucks, blame yourself and your club.

This sort of "it's someone else's fault" attitude hardly impresses. If there is a problem, then find a solution, pick up the phone and sort it.

CKinnard wrote:- CA health insurance is a joke. read it!

CA don't have a health insurance policy. What are you referring to?

CKinnard wrote:I mean seriously, what does the average masters club racer get from CA?

Good question. Why not ask them?

CKinnard wrote:Myself and many ex racers now get our competitive kicks either doing Strava segments or during 'race' training at the free local city council criterium track. There's also more 'private road racing' being organized. It gets around the BS of applying for Police approval and paying an arm and leg for road traffic controllers.

Without the proper due diligence of appropriate race approvals and management plans, anyone involved is such an event is personally liable for being sued by anyone else involved or any member of the public so injured.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby CKinnard » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:06 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
CKinnard wrote:- CA health insurance is a joke. read it!

CA don't have a health insurance policy. What are you referring to?


http://www.cycling.org.au/Membership/Member-Insurance

http://membership.cycling.org.au/
RACING
For competitive riders
For those of you who want to take your riding to the next level, a Cycling Australia Racing membership is what you’re looking for. Our Racing memberships are designed specifically for riders who plan to ride competitively, from juniors through to masters, and this membership allows riders to participate in over 3,000 state and club run events each year. As a member of one of our 210 cycling clubs, you will also have access to a wealth of coaching resources and training programs to help you achieve the best possible results in the velodrome or on the road. You will also enjoy all the benefits of the Recreation membership, such as CyclingRewards, as well as be covered by up to $20m of Public Liability and Personal Accident Insurance whenever and wherever they ride.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby CKinnard » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:09 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
CKinnard wrote:- CA has no systems, apparent knowledge or experience, or concerrn at reducing the risk of crashing for noob masters cyclists.

Just exactly what systems do you think CA should put in place?

This is the sort of things clubs are for. CA provide a very accessible coaching skills accreditation program to arm experienced club members with the ability to do just this very thing.


The clubs are under the jurisdiction of CA, and must conform to CA standards. What are those standards?
What CC QC does CA have?

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby CKinnard » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:20 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Without the proper due diligence of appropriate race approvals and management plans, anyone involved is such an event is personally liable for being sued by anyone else involved or any member of the public so injured.


fear mongering codswallop.

no greater risk than club road rides, shop rides, casual gatherings of friends riding regularly together.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Parker » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:25 pm

Clubs are generally too set in their ways to take on new initiatives that have been designed CA, often they put them in the to hard basket or say things like it didn't work even though they never gave it a real shot.

CA needs initiative and youthful ideas to move forward it is an old organisation.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby CKinnard » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:27 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
CKinnard wrote:- Club handicapping sucks with 50+ yo C graders being regularly pitted against noob 20 somethings, because B grade is too precious to take noobs straight into their races.

Club handicapping is a club matter, what on earth does that have to do with CA? Have you offered to help the club's handicapper out?

Open race handicapping is a state matter. In NSW it's the responsibility of each club to provide up to date handicap information to the state handicapper and the individual to make sure their information is up to date. So if a handicap sucks, blame yourself and your club.

This sort of "it's someone else's fault" attitude hardly impresses. If there is a problem, then find a solution, pick up the phone and sort it.


who controls cycling clubs? who has the cumulative expertise on guiding CC's how to handicap?
are you stating CA has absolutely no guidelines/recommendations/policy on how to handicap to ensure the safest outcomes for all riders? Does this apply to juniors as well? Like I said, what do members get for the money?

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby warthog1 » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:54 pm

skull wrote:ACTVCC was only $100.

Races are $5 - $10

My central vic vets was only 100 last year too. Havent got a licence this year. Got yhe cbf's racing wise at the moment.
CA isnt getting any money from me with the fees listed on here, even if I could be bothered.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Jan 21, 2015 9:58 pm

It's pretty obvious you've never been involved in race management. It's a vast volunteer operation, the same as for just about all club sport in this country. What contribution to your club did you make?

Club's are responsible for their own QC. As they are in just about every other sport in this country. Cricket Australia doesn't do QC on local clubs, nor does NRL, AFL, BA, FFA, NA, SLSA etc etc. All QC for coaching programs for most organised sports here are managed via the same QA and QC processes provided via and mandated by the Australian Sports Commission. If a club doesn't have a coach, then how about becoming one?

Don't think your club is up to scratch, you have the choice to move to a better one, or to actually contribute and help make them better. Whingers that never offer solutions or assistance or positively contribute are welcome to leave our club.

As for the insurance and risk management issues, I can assure you it's very real and there have been numerous very costly legal cases where due diligence was not at an appropriate level. Organised club rides are covered, as is any licensed rider doing scheduled training set by a coach.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:05 pm

CKinnard wrote:who controls cycling clubs? who has the cumulative expertise on guiding CC's how to handicap?
are you stating CA has absolutely no guidelines/recommendations/policy on how to handicap to ensure the safest outcomes for all riders? Does this apply to juniors as well? Like I said, what do members get for the money?

Handicapping is about race fairness, not safety. All handicapping requires is knowledge of riders' form.

Safety management is paramount and involves a whole host of issues but I fail to see what it has to do with handicapping.

Perhaps you are confusing handicapping with grading?

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:13 pm

Anyway, I'm not here to defend CA and I agree on the money point but I think some of the criticisms are unwarranted or misdirected.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Farmer Elvis » Wed Jan 21, 2015 10:36 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Anyway, I'm not here to defend CA and I agree on the money point but I think some of the criticisms are unwarranted or misdirected.

Well said Alex

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Derny Driver » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:02 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:You can wear any plain colour kit you like.

Where does it say that Alex? I cant find it anywhere in the CA or UCI tech regs

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:23 pm

Derny Driver wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:You can wear any plain colour kit you like.

Where does it say that Alex? I cant find it anywhere in the CA or UCI tech regs

You're right, it doesn't. It's just common practice in local events so as to prevent riders from non starts, enable those without a current kit to still race. Deliberate use of non-sanctioned kit usually results in a scale of sanctions, typically a fine.

As a club sponsor, I think it reasonable that riders be required not race in kit with non-sponsor's promos.

Imagine a football game where you could wear whatever jersey you liked?


I meant to add the existence of a specific statement of this policy does vary state to state. It is explicitly stated in Cycling Victoria's race apparel policy for instance, and is common practice in NSW.

e.g. CV's policy is:
WEARING APPAREL AT CV OPEN EVENTS
Note that a Victorian member, whilst competing in a Victorian open event, has 3 options from which to choose regarding their apparel. They must wear either:
- Registered club jerseys.
- Completely plain apparel
- Sponsored Apparel Eg: local bike shop, employer etc (This option requires registration and payment. See below)

Note the following exemptions:
- Teams registered in the National Road Series (NRS)
- UCI Registered Continental Teams

Registered riders of NRS and UCI Registered Continental Teams do not have to register their clothing and may race any Victorian Open event in their team apparel without further cost or registration.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:46 pm

QLD policy is the same as CA's policy in the tech regs - i.e. to restrict advertising on jerseys to only those sanctioned by relevant club/team/state etc and registered accordingly. It does not prevent one from using plain kit without advertising. It does prevent one from racing in jerseys with non-sanctioned advertising.

3.7 ADVERTISING ON UNIFORMS
(All uniforms including warm up clothing)
3.7.01 The only advertising that may appear on the uniform of a competitor is that which has been approved by their club when representing the club or by their
State Association when representing the state.
3.7.02 No limit shall apply to the number of times sponsors’ names appear on the uniform of a competitor.
3.7.03 Advertising, which may appear on the uniform of a competitor, shall be controlled by the competitor’s State Association.
3.7.04 The State Association may charge a Sponsorship Registration Fee to permit the advertising to appear on the competitor’s club uniform.
3.7.05 The State Association may choose to transfer control of matters relating to sponsorships to their constituent clubs if they so desire.
Note: Rules relating to advertising on competitor’s uniforms, in international events in and outside of Australia are different. The above rule is regarded as a domestic rule and does not apply overseas.


SA policy: no specifically stated.

WA policy: "Your choice is to wear Club kit, registered kit or Neutral ( mainly 1 colour and no sponsors logos)"

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Derny Driver » Wed Jan 21, 2015 11:59 pm

Thanks Alex.
I have an opinion on all this but I wont be saying it on the world wide web.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby CKinnard » Thu Jan 22, 2015 7:11 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:It's pretty obvious you've never been involved in race management. It's a vast volunteer operation, the same as for just about all club sport in this country. What contribution to your club did you make?

Club's are responsible for their own QC. As they are in just about every other sport in this country. Cricket Australia doesn't do QC on local clubs, nor does NRL, AFL, BA, FFA, NA, SLSA etc etc. All QC for coaching programs for most organised sports here are managed via the same QA and QC processes provided via and mandated by the Australian Sports Commission. If a club doesn't have a coach, then how about becoming one?

Don't think your club is up to scratch, you have the choice to move to a better one, or to actually contribute and help make them better. Whingers that never offer solutions or assistance or positively contribute are welcome to leave our club.

As for the insurance and risk management issues, I can assure you it's very real and there have been numerous very costly legal cases where due diligence was not at an appropriate level. Organised club rides are covered, as is any licensed rider doing scheduled training set by a coach.


I think you are confusing the benefit of insurance to CC members with its benefit to a club entity. Tell us all about injury and liability insurance payouts from the last 10 years by CA insurers. Of the 30 odd riders I know who have broken bones, not one has been recompensed for medical fees or lost income.

I know how prone clubs are to inner sanctum-ness, nepotism, ego and testosterone fueled ignorance, ridicule and bullying to silence different views....The 'if you don't like it bugger off' attitude is typical red neck bully boy parochialism, which is why I've watched reasonable minded Masters cyclists walk away from competition. As for my experience, you don't know Jack, but conveniently resort to patronizing ridicule and slur to make your point. It's the same meathead consciousness that made me back away from doing more for the CC I was in.

So anyone can come along and start a CC with no prior experience. As long as CA gets its member mulah, the CA sanctioned CC can do whatever it wants. Totally unaccountable. If CA isn't there to improve quality of CC member experience, what is it there for?

Seriously, spell it out.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby r2160 » Thu Jan 22, 2015 8:14 am

Back in 2012 I had a significant crash that ended up breaking 3 ribs, my collarbone and puncturing my left lung in a club race.

I ended up having to get a plate in my shoulder.

My CA licence contributed just over $2500 to the operation for the plate and screws in my shoulder.

As far as I am concerned, the injury insurance worked fine

I am in agreeance with Alex here. I appreciate you may not have a great opinion of CA or local clubs. So why not get involveed. You may find that your opinions and ideas will only make the sport better.

cheers
Glenn
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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:04 am

CKinnard wrote:I think you are confusing the benefit of insurance to CC members with its benefit to a club entity. Tell us all about injury and liability insurance payouts from the last 10 years by CA insurers. Of the 30 odd riders I know who have broken bones, not one has been recompensed for medical fees or lost income.

I know how prone clubs are to inner sanctum-ness, nepotism, ego and testosterone fueled ignorance, ridicule and bullying to silence different views....The 'if you don't like it bugger off' attitude is typical red neck bully boy parochialism, which is why I've watched reasonable minded Masters cyclists walk away from competition. As for my experience, you don't know Jack, but conveniently resort to patronizing ridicule and slur to make your point. It's the same meathead consciousness that made me back away from doing more for the CC I was in.

So anyone can come along and start a CC with no prior experience. As long as CA gets its member mulah, the CA sanctioned CC can do whatever it wants. Totally unaccountable. If CA isn't there to improve quality of CC member experience, what is it there for?

Seriously, spell it out.


Club culture

It does sound like you came across a particularly difficult club and I'm sorry to hear that. And yes, you are correct I don't know your experience. I was just responding to what sounded like a "complain but never bother to contribute attitude". My comments were meant as a general observation and not personal but I could have worded them better so my apologies for that.

Not all clubs are the same, some are exceptionally welcoming of new and newbie members (as we are), while others as you say are a bit more parochial and fiefdom like - generally happens in the bigger cities more than in regional areas.

Clubs have different inherit cultures, and personal stress experienced from being within any organisation is usually the result of a clash of one's personal values with those of the organisation. Resolving that has a few solutions. It's the same in most sports (and indeed anywhere really) so it's a more social/cultural phenomenon than a Cycling Australia administration issue. Even the peak admin bodies of the richest sports can''t manage the cultures that emerge and evolve within their member clubs or franchises.

I consider the issue you describe as legitimate, but aiming it at the feet of CA is misdirected.

The good thing is there are hundreds of clubs and you do have a choice if the one you happened to choose turns out to not be what you'd hoped. Those in smaller towns and regional areas may be a bit more limited but generally local town based clubs are pretty friendly.

Insurance

I can't possibly provide details on an insurance company's payouts. As for your 30 mates who've broken bones (that's a lot of breaks - can you advise which rides these are happening so frequently on so the rest of us can avoid them?), assuming they were the result of participating in a sanctioned club or coach training ride and were financial members of CA, did any of them actually make a claim?

I made a claim once after a leg break due to an accident on a scheduled solo training ride and received a $20,000 payout. It was small in context of my needs at the time, but I was grateful for it, and the amount was right in line with the advertised insurance policy. I had other forms of insurance which helped out a bit as well and I suggest others concerned with their level of coverage do the same. It was nowhere near what I ended up actually needing, but it was way better than nothing.

In any case, it wasn't the personal accident insurance I was talking about - it's the public liability protection, and thank you, yes I'm aware of the differences. A close colleague of mine was involved in case as expert report involving a rider who is now a paraplegic - massive payout due to the lack of due diligence of event organisers. There are others in the news over the past year where insurance, or a proper lack of having it is involving large legal cases for cycling events or rides.

But at end of the day, if you are concerned or not, you can choose to take or not take out your own insurance.

As an accredited coach I also have liability coverage for coaching activity under the CA policy. Anyone providing coaching services without proper coverage is taking quite a risk in this day and age. There's a case in QLD at present on this issue.

As for the issues with CA - I've said already I'm not here to defend them and agree on the money point, but some of the criticism towards CA is misdirected.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Jan 22, 2015 9:28 am

Derny Driver wrote:Thanks Alex.
I have an opinion on all this but I wont be saying it on the world wide web.

It's a tricky issue, the balance between encouraging people to start out and participate, and supporting those who support the sport. A little leeway makes sense, but inevitably some riders take the piss and as a result we end up with harder line policies.

Like it or not, as a federation we still have variable regulations and policies across the country. Where policies are normalised, it's usually big picture stuff such as anti-doping, code of conduct around issues like working with children, sexism, racism, gambling/game fixing, which flow out of broader national policies of government.

Clubs are free to make their own apparel policy for their own club events and many do. I know when I was a club president we had a policy to encourage wearing of club kit during our club races and training but it wasn't mandatory. No one was turned away because of their jersey. We did have occasional events where club kit was deemed mandatory, e.g. club promo photo shoots. Those racing open events were expected to conform with open event apparel policy of the day.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby CKinnard » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:11 am

r2160 wrote:Back in 2012 I had a significant crash that ended up breaking 3 ribs, my collarbone and puncturing my left lung in a club race.

I ended up having to get a plate in my shoulder.

My CA licence contributed just over $2500 to the operation for the plate and screws in my shoulder.

As far as I am concerned, the injury insurance worked fine

I am in agreeance with Alex here. I appreciate you may not have a great opinion of CA or local clubs. So why not get involveed. You may find that your opinions and ideas will only make the sport better.

cheers
Glenn


I was involved, and got fed up with the prevailing culture of arrogance and ignorance. And I've watched at least 5 other quality guys walk away due to concerns about safety and not being given a fair hearing by the inner sanctum, and their nepotism.

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Re: Cycling Australia extortion 2015

Postby ldrcycles » Thu Jan 22, 2015 10:37 am

I couldn't afford to renew last year, let alone now. I've since joined Audax Australia, same or better insurance, quarterly magazine, reduced ride fees (usually the difference is only $5 or so but whatever) and it's only $70/yr. Plus Audaxers are a great bunch of people, unlike some of the spectacularly arrogant snobs i've encountered in road racing (note that i am not referring to any club officials/volunteers, they have all been very nice).
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