How do you roll turns with just two riders?

gavin_rider
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How do you roll turns with just two riders?

Postby gavin_rider » Tue Nov 15, 2016 7:53 pm

When you have a group of say, 4 or more riders, and roll turns continuously it works very well with each rider only facing the wind for a short period each cycle.

I'm just wondering how you should roll turns when there are only two riders. Do you roll continuously or do you take, say, a one minute turn each? Is there any science or best practice as to the best way of rolling turns when there are only two riders?

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Derny Driver
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Re: How do you roll turns with just two riders?

Postby Derny Driver » Tue Nov 15, 2016 10:01 pm

Long turns mate. Do about 1 kilometre each.

You may be interested to know that in a 4-man Time Trial, we dont use the double rolling pacelines. Its single file with 3 in the slipstream and one pulling a big turn on the front. Front guy drops to the back after his turn.
Double pacelines really only come into play when you have 5 or more riders. Then they are more efficient.

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Re: How do you roll turns with just two riders?

Postby nickobec » Tue Nov 15, 2016 11:55 pm

Depends on the relative strengths of the riders

Was in a handicap with state under 15 TT champion, not only 1/4 my age but less than 1/2 my size. We were the limit group. Scratch consisted of the National junior team for the worlds in Doha and a few other strong riders.

The weather forecast was atrocious high winds and rain. We only got the wind, but it was rough. But those are the conditions I thrive in. First 4 laps, I would do 15 minutes, then I got "spelled" for a minute, before going back on front. Last lap the work was shared more evenly 2 minute turns. We stayed away, unlike the other groups between us and scratch, who did not work together

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Re: How do you roll turns with just two riders?

Postby ironhanglider » Wed Nov 16, 2016 9:47 pm

Derny Driver wrote:Long turns mate. Do about 1 kilometre each.

You may be interested to know that in a 4-man Time Trial, we dont use the double rolling pacelines. Its single file with 3 in the slipstream and one pulling a big turn on the front. Front guy drops to the back after his turn.
Double pacelines really only come into play when you have 5 or more riders. Then they are more efficient.


Physics or psychology? In my observation TTT's in grand tours seem to work the same as the 4 man TTT. I suspect that in this case there is no doubt that everyone is doing their best to make sure that the team gets to the end in the fastest time. However it is different when the members of a group have their own interests to look out for.

Rolling pace lines are the best approach for a handicap, where it is important to work together, but no-one has incentive to do any more than their bit. In a rolling pace line it becomes pretty obvious when someone is shirking.

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Derny Driver
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Re: How do you roll turns with just two riders?

Postby Derny Driver » Wed Nov 16, 2016 11:28 pm

I know Cameron likes a bit of history ... probably the most famous 2 man time trial is (was) the Trofeo Baracchi which ran from 1944 to 1991. Coppi and Baldini were always the red hot favourites until in 1962 German powerhouse Rudi Altig teamed up with the world best time trialler, Jacques Anquetil. They won, but what was amazing was that in the last kilometres Altig had to physically push Anquetil who was delerious from exhaustion (and possibly drug use). As they turned into the velodrome Anquetil rode straight ahead into a pole and smashed himself. Altig crossed the line to claim the victory for his team.
There is actually some old camera footage of it here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQWNcB2Y0jY

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Re: How do you roll turns with just two riders?

Postby gavin_rider » Fri Nov 18, 2016 11:44 am

Thanks guys. In my case, it wasn't a race, it was two co-operative riders of similar ability planning to get around a 5 hour circuit as efficiently as possible. So, long turns 1km each. Thanks.

OK, now if we find another two riders of similar ability along the circuit (again, a training ride, not a race) and we form a 4 person team, and do circular rolling turns, how long should the turns be - is it still a 1km'ish or so?

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Derny Driver
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Re: How do you roll turns with just two riders?

Postby Derny Driver » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:08 pm

Rolling pacelines are quite different. As soon as the rider in the fast line gets to the front they immediately move left onto the retreating line. You are on the front for maybe 10 seconds. Its a bit of an art form which probably requires its own thread.
For 4 riders out training, we do 2 abreast. The front 2 riders may do say 5 km on the front and the pair behind sit side by side behind them. After a while the front 2 peel right and left and allow the back two to come to the front through the middle of them. This way you can chat to your riding partner and the work on the front is shared /halved.

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silentC
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Re: How do you roll turns with just two riders?

Postby silentC » Fri Nov 18, 2016 12:49 pm

I used to join in at Centennial Park on one of the weeknight training rides, which was a double pace line with about 30 or so riders. I think it's only about 4km around but turns would be short, maybe half a km or so, which was about as much as my legs could stand :)

We have tried on numerous occasions to do rolling turns with a bunch of about 10 or 12 amateur riders. It's difficult to coordinate and there's always one guy who wants to stick at the front and wont move over, so it gets slower and slower until he bonks. Everyone needs to know what to do for it to work. When it does, it's great.

When doing this on the road, I always feel as though the retreating line should be on the left but some of the other guys want to peel off right. I don't know why, maybe that's how they ride them in Europe? I think you want to be peeling off away from the traffic, and approaching cars won't be surprised by a rider coming out into the lane. We only do this early morning with not much traffic around but it pays to be safe.
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Derny Driver
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Re: How do you roll turns with just two riders?

Postby Derny Driver » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:04 pm

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Last edited by Derny Driver on Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Derny Driver
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Re: How do you roll turns with just two riders?

Postby Derny Driver » Fri Nov 18, 2016 2:05 pm

silentC wrote:When doing this on the road, I always feel as though the retreating line should be on the left but some of the other guys want to peel off right. I don't know why, maybe that's how they ride them in Europe? .

No its because of the wind direction. The retreating line is on the windy side to give shelter to the advancing line.

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silentC
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Re: How do you roll turns with just two riders?

Postby silentC » Fri Nov 18, 2016 3:43 pm

I doubt the guys I ride with are thinking that much about it, but we'll give them the benefit of the doubt :)
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Nikolai
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Re: How do you roll turns with just two riders?

Postby Nikolai » Mon Jan 09, 2017 7:46 pm

In my observation TTT's in grand tours seem to work the same as the 4 man TTT.


You can't really compare the two. The classic 4-men 100km TTT is a 2 hour death, a 30-50km 9-men race is not. Two different races even if they look the same on TV. The 9-men TTT offers a lot more options to play with, the 4-men 100km has none. One is usually held on highways, another one on twisty, technical roads. And so on.

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Re: How do you roll turns with just two riders?

Postby nezumi » Sun Jan 15, 2017 10:48 am

ironhanglider wrote: In my observation TTT's in grand tours seem to work the same as the 4 man TTT. I suspect that in this case there is no doubt that everyone is doing their best to make sure that the team gets to the end in the fastest time.


In this instance I'd suggest it's worth considering the finishing requirements of the TTT (e.g. 5 time is based on the 5th rider to finish etc), which means the team can afford to burn some riders early by using them to drive the pace rather than running a double paceline.
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