Armstrong scape goat

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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby Mylotian » Mon Jul 01, 2013 1:57 pm

Herzog wrote:-Oh come on.

No one's drug taking impacted as many innocent people as Armstrongs. The way he brought down his detractors through legal action etc took a massive personal toll on those who were simply trying to do the right thing.

He also pressured junior teammates to dope, and had so much influence that he was able to kill off the careers of those who refused.

If he "still has your vote" what does that say about your ethics?



Everyone is responsible for their own actions, they ie: his teammates etc were/are all adults, he could not have achieved what he did without the support of others including team management and possibly even his sponsors. I'm not up to speed with the full story even if the full story still has not come out. For a start I'll read Tyler Hamilton's book.

Surely teammates, management etc could have stopped the roller coaster if they had wanted too but it's apparent that at the end of the day it was not only a case of winning at all costs but preserving the almighty dollar. It's like blaming the PM for what you may find wrong in Australia when more than one person is accountable.

I also don't need to defend my ethics but I find it quite immature to insult someone unknown to you who makes an assumption based on a possibly flawed premise. :)
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby trailgumby » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:08 pm

Mylotian wrote:Everyone is responsible for their own actions, they ie: his teammates etc were/are all adults, he could not have achieved what he did without the support of others including team management and possibly even his sponsors. I'm not up to speed with the full story even if the full story still has not come out. For a start I'll read Tyler Hamilton's book.


Indeed that's true. Nevertheless, have you not heard of "grooming" someone? ... the process of placing them in the position where doing something normally regarded as abhorrent becomes not only natural but the only sensible course of action?

Tyler's book is a great place to start. The term "prepare properly" will never have the same meaning for you again.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby wombatK » Mon Jul 01, 2013 3:20 pm

AUbicycles wrote:As general cycling folk, we don't have a complete insight into what goes on behind closed doors and as with Lance, we try to put faith in goodness. This is something I do now though a cloud on uncertainty hangs over many past legends based on what we know now about the sport.

What we probably can say is that it is harder than ever for dopers with eyes on riders and the UCI.

Too true. It's a pity the response from those behind the closed doors (uci) haven't opened them more. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby find_bruce » Mon Jul 01, 2013 4:51 pm

wombatK wrote:
AUbicycles wrote:As general cycling folk, we don't have a complete insight into what goes on behind closed doors and as with Lance, we try to put faith in goodness. This is something I do now though a cloud on uncertainty hangs over many past legends based on what we know now about the sport.

What we probably can say is that it is harder than ever for dopers with eyes on riders and the UCI.

Too true. It's a pity the response from those behind the closed doors (uci) haven't opened them more. Sunlight is the best disinfectant.

There are a couple of things that should concern anyone who is hopeful of cycling being dope free
  1. The fewer cyclists who dope, the greater the rewards for the dopers - in the 90s & naughties;
  2. private "team testing" is easily corrupted from preventing doping to preventing dopers being caught
Sadly there is yet to be any credible response from the UCI. I am not sure that Brian Cookson's manifesto pledge of an independent anti-doping unit & tougher penalties is the best response, but it certainly beats the embarrassment in charge at the moment.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby Mugglechops » Mon Jul 01, 2013 5:35 pm

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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby ldrcycles » Mon Jul 01, 2013 7:23 pm

Mylotian wrote: For a start I'll read Tyler Hamilton's book.


You won't regret it, it's a real eye opener. Seven Deadly Sins is compelling reading too. The only problem with those books is that after reading them, you will wonder how it will ever be possible to get rid of doping, it just sounds too easy to avoid getting caught and too much of an advantage.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Jul 01, 2013 8:34 pm

From Dopeology.org

Each square on this matrix represents a rider placing 1st, 2nd or 3rd in each of the major European Pro races through the season plus World and Olympics road races, and the top 20 places for the Grand Tours.

Races are ordered from beginning of season and are the horizontal lines, years represented by the vertical columns, left to right from 1980 to 2013.

Blue = rider with doping incident
Grey = rider with no known doping incident
Black = no race

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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Mon Jul 01, 2013 10:41 pm

ldrcycles wrote:
Mylotian wrote: For a start I'll read Tyler Hamilton's book.


You won't regret it, it's a real eye opener. Seven Deadly Sins is compelling reading too. The only problem with those books is that after reading them, you will wonder how it will ever be possible to get rid of doping, it just sounds too easy to avoid getting caught and too much of an advantage.


Don't be too disheartened. Have a quick look at the blood passport tool that is now available. I am sure that you will find a Wikipedia page on it for an easy start. If it was in place back in 1999 then Armstrong would never have had a win in an of the major tours.

Ever since Cain killed Abel wrong-doers have been bought to justice by a raft of practices and proofs. Sports drug cheating was the exception. In sports you would only be guilty on the result of a positive drug test (which had so many ways of defeating that only the most stupid fools would get caught), an admission, occasionally from being caught with the drugs. No manner of any other intelligence, witness statements, money trails, documentation and anything else was sufficient.

If you are fluent in written French you could also read Walsh's LA Confidential (co-author). The case against Armstrong and the US Postal team was all laid out in it in 2004. But the UCI never had to take much notice as it's influence on the public consciousness was retarded by not making it into English thanks to the influence (read bullying and standover) of Armstrong Inc.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby AUbicycles » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:23 pm

I think there is a secret message in the chart from Alex - I sent it to the CSI crime labs but they couldn't find anything either.

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On the Blood Passport, it is a valid point however I wouldn't agree because the game of doping is being one step ahead and working out what needs to be done to avoid detection or manipulate. Even with the bloodpassport, while it makes it harder there are still a few known flaws (ie. ways to dope but be compliant). The Tyler Hamilton book The Secret Race which I review on BNA was one I didn't get immediately when it came out but once I picked it up I didn't lose interest and it does a good job of shedding light on the other side of pro cycling.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby Mylotian » Tue Jul 02, 2013 8:44 am

After already reading part of the book it's became apparent that drugs was/is a culture in professional cycling, where people felt they had no other choice but to take drugs to compete on a level playing field despite misgivings or just withdraw and take up some other less challenging or emotionally rewarding profession.

However with the systemic use of drugs to win you must wonder how many people in the current Tour De France are using, can anyone enlighten me on how diligent the ruling bodies will be this year in light of the scandal from the preceding years.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby scotto » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:13 am

Paddles wrote:I hope that M.White's new position with OGE wasn't bus driver ..................


the SBS boys this morning were saying its good to have hime back, after some time off for "...his antics with the US Postal team..."

doping is now 'antics" .....
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby im_no_pro » Tue Jul 02, 2013 11:36 am

scotto wrote:
Paddles wrote:I hope that M.White's new position with OGE wasn't bus driver ..................


the SBS boys this morning were saying its good to have hime back, after some time off for "...his antics with the US Postal team..."

doping is now 'antics" .....


And so it should be.... MacMillan dictionary has 2 definitions for Antics. Appropriate option below, the other definition of course is inappropriate for such a situation.

behaviour that is considered to be deliberately stupid and likely to cause problems
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby scotto » Thu Nov 21, 2013 6:29 am

The whole lot of the peleton and UCI were on drugs or corrupt back then. PEDs = level playing field.sad but true. Hopefully not for too much longer
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby sogood » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:31 am

Bottom line, the whole sport is dirty in those years and it's all relative as to who is at more or less fault.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby BastardSheep » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:34 am

sogood wrote:Bottom line, the whole sport is dirty in those years and it's all relative as to who is at more or less fault.


Yet it was being claimed that this was a new clean era ... just as they're claiming today. Therein lies the problem.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby sogood » Thu Nov 21, 2013 8:50 am

BastardSheep wrote:Yet it was being claimed that this was a new clean era ... just as they're claiming today. Therein lies the problem.

As long as there's an incentive, mankind has never stopped cheating since pre-historic times. It's not about to stop. The only question is, what's the risk benefit ratio, a see-sawing number through the decades.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby djw47 » Thu Nov 21, 2013 12:50 pm

Mylotian wrote:I recently watched a documentary of the Tour on SBS and was surprised to learn that drugs have been part of the tour since the 50"s possibly earlier. I'm just appalled how LA has been singled out as the worst offender. The hypocrisy of the ruling body really gets my goat considering the systemic use of drugs in professional cycling since early times. How many other all time greats where doing drugs to aid their success. LA still has my vote, how do you feel :?:


He was the worst offender, he ran the show at US Postal/Discovery and demanded those around him were complicit in his cheating. Many/most of his rivals were also at it, but he was the guy who won and the guy who denied it for years. He also treated many honest, decent people like crap and thought nothing of using legal threats and his friends in the media to ruin them.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby sogood » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:14 pm

djw47 wrote:He was the worst offender, he ran the show at US Postal/Discovery and demanded those around him were complicit in his cheating. Many/most of his rivals were also at it, but he was the guy who won and the guy who denied it for years. He also treated many honest, decent people like crap and thought nothing of using legal threats and his friends in the media to ruin them.

Morally, I think every one of the cheaters as sinned, likely along quite a few who are yet to be discovered. Many has won and many has denied and many has hurt others. Fact is, lynch mob and the media wants a target, not multiple targets. This is also a fact of human behaviour and society.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby biker jk » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:22 pm

scotto wrote:The whole lot of the peleton and UCI were on drugs or corrupt back then. PEDs = level playing field.sad but true. Hopefully not for too much longer


It's "peloton". So Armstrong won seven straight TDFs because it was a "level playing field"? :roll:
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Nov 21, 2013 1:44 pm

djw47 wrote:
Mylotian wrote:I recently watched a documentary of the Tour on SBS and was surprised to learn that drugs have been part of the tour since the 50"s possibly earlier. I'm just appalled how LA has been singled out as the worst offender. The hypocrisy of the ruling body really gets my goat considering the systemic use of drugs in professional cycling since early times. How many other all time greats where doing drugs to aid their success. LA still has my vote, how do you feel :?:


He was the worst offender, he ran the show at US Postal/Discovery and demanded those around him were complicit in his cheating. Many/most of his rivals were also at it, but he was the guy who won and the guy who denied it for years. He also treated many honest, decent people like crap and thought nothing of using legal threats and his friends in the media to ruin them.


All a bit old. I think Mylotians positions has moved oncinsiderably since that initial post. He was not the only one at the time who was unaware of the wealth of detail and the extraordinary power that Pharmstrong weilded.

sogood wrote:Morally, I think every one of the cheaters as sinned, likely along quite a few who are yet to be discovered. Many has won and many has denied and many has hurt others. Fact is, lynch mob and the media wants a target, not multiple targets. This is also a fact of human behaviour and society.

Not disagreeing but I trust that you are not denying Lance's extraordinary part in the problems that arose between 1999 and, say, 2009.

And to poor Lance who is, now that denial has zero traction, bleating about the unfairnes of it all, "boo bloody hoo".
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby richbee » Thu Nov 21, 2013 2:44 pm

scotto wrote:The whole lot of the peleton and UCI were on drugs or corrupt back then. PEDs = level playing field.sad but true. Hopefully not for too much longer

I'd hope the playing field remains level, just a whole lot cleaner
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby zed » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:35 pm

It's not a simple case of LA being a high profile athlete that caught doping, he's a pathological liar, who bullied, threatened and manipulated people, good people. He's not a good person. He's in a completely different league to the other cyclists of his era that doped. It's like comparing a street corner drug dealer to Pablo Escobar. The doping is forgivable the crazy sociopathic behaviour isn't.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby sogood » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:41 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:Not disagreeing but I trust that you are not denying Lance's extraordinary part in the problems that arose between 1999 and, say, 2009.

No denying in Lance's role in all that. My point is, he jumped into a dope soup called European cycling and he beat them at their game, no different to a lot of US corporations. If one takes the understanding that that's the hidden rules of the game, then he gamed the system and succeeded more than others. Equally if not more so is the fault by the European cycling organizations, from top to bottom, who fertilised the culture. To me, it's splitting hair to proportion the blame. They are all to blame in a dope culture.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby zed » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:45 pm

sogood wrote:
ColinOldnCranky wrote:Not disagreeing but I trust that you are not denying Lance's extraordinary part in the problems that arose between 1999 and, say, 2009.

No denying in Lance's role in all that. My point is, he jumped into a dope soup called European cycling and he beat them at their game, no different to a lot of US corporations. If one takes the understanding that that's the hidden rules of the game, then he gamed the system and succeeded more than others. Equally if not more so is the fault by the European cycling organizations, from top to bottom, who fertilised the culture. To me, it's splitting hair to proportion the blame. They are all to blame in a dope culture.


Some of those people that were complicit in the European cycling "dope soup" are good people. LA is not a good person.
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Re: Armstrong scape goat

Postby sogood » Thu Nov 21, 2013 4:49 pm

zed wrote:Some of those people that were complicit in the European cycling "dope soup" are good people. LA is not a good person.

"Good people"? I think that's the mis-perception that led to this day. I think that's a "loud mouth" Yank and Texan, a personality issue. At the end of the day, they all lied, they all had a significant role in duping others in and out of their sport. Punish LA definitely, but don't let lose on all the others. Given the role of the various cycling officials, they should be punished even more so than the athletes.
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