Seat height high/low enough? - cramping

[kramlin]

Hi all,

Was just wondering if my seat is too high or too low. I did the test where I extend my leg fully with the ball of my foot on the pedal, and the angle of the foot points up about 30 degrees. Photo is coming.

The seat is currently at its maximum height (according to sizing charts and my inseam, the bike size would ideally be one larger).

Thing is, yesterday my right calf cramped up when getting up onto the bike, and then later in the ride, my left when getting up onto the bike. Does that mean the seat is too high or too low?

[Newton]

Sitting on bike, foot on pedal, rotate pedal until knee is roughly above the ball of your foot, drop a plumb bob from under the bony part of your knee cap, the string should intersect the pedal shaft. Saddle height and position can be adjusted to suit, if you run out of saddle height, your bike may be too small for you.

Straddle the bike, both feet on the floor, what sort of clearance do you have between the bar and your crotch?

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/kops.html

[Aushiker]

G'day

Cycling performance tips may or may not be helpful. Also check out here.

Hopefully Michael will drop in and comment.

Andrew

[il padrone]

KOPS is a very much disputed principle

But, regardless, it has little to do with correct saddle height.

I've never heard of the test the op mentions (leg straight with ball of foot on pedal) . The general test I've always used with no problems is:

1. Sit on the bike (with someone holding it)
2. Rotate pedal to bottom of stroke
3. Place your heel on the pedal

4. Your leg should now be straight - not bar straight, but straight with a relaxed feel. Adjust saddle height to achieve this.

When you put your ball of foot correctly on the pedal this should give you a slightly bent leg.

A further check is the rear view while riding. Get someone to observe this as you ride. Your hips should be level and not rocking, while you can comfortably spin the pedals quickly.

The standover height is less relevant today as most frames are 'compact design'. Even a frame that is a bit small isn't a problem for saddle height. You just need a longer seat post. Reach to the bars may be constricted with a small frame - some put up with it or fit a longer head stem.

[Aushiker]

KOPS is a very much disputed principle

But, regardless, it has little to do with correct saddle height.

and probably cramping as well.

Andrew

[moosterbounce]

If you are cramping getting onto your bike, seat height might be irrelevant as you aren't peddling yet!!

Try a magnesium supplement and stretching.

[sogood]

Posting the image for OP (Kramlin).

[moosterbounce]

I know this is possibly useless info, but I used to have cramp issues in my right calf after about an hour of riding. I was wearing running shoes for riding back then. Anyhoo, after talking with lbs, they suggested that when I got tired, I dropped my heel (I tend to be a bit toe-y when I ride). The added stretching of my calf muscle was causing the cramping.

With running shoes, the sole tends to bend around the pedal and can allow this heel drop. I switched to proper bike shoes with a stiff sole and haven't had a problem since

Might be worth checking your pedal stroke to see if you are doing something similar.

[RobS]

> Thing is, yesterday my right calf cramped up when getting up onto the bike, and then later in the ride, my left when getting up onto the bike.

I sometimes get calf cramps when I stop at the lights and point my toes.

I'd be going the magnesium route.

You shouldn't be adjusting the seat height to compensate for situations when the bike is stationary, unless it *really* bothers you.

The only way you can keep the seat height right an not stretch you feet/legs when stopped is to get a bike with a larger bottom bracket drop. This isn't really a practical constraint to put on a bike - the drop doesn't vary too much from bike to bike anyway so improvements would be minor. Thinner tires can also put you a little closer to the ground.

BTW: The knee angle thing is hard to judge precisely because you need to indentify exactly what points of your leg the "lines" pass through. At home it's subject to large errors.

[il padrone]

Heel on the pedal, and leg straight is the more reliable measure.

And yeah, ditch the runners. Ride in proper cycling shoes with a more rigid sole.

[sogood]

Posting again for OP (Kramlin)

[sogood]

Heel on the pedal, and leg straight is the more reliable measure.

My understanding is that one would do that "heel on pedal" test without shoes, but never quite understood how it compensated for variations in shoe/cleat thickness short of being just an approximation.

[il padrone]

Heel on the pedal, and leg straight is the more reliable measure.

My understanding is that one would do that "heel on pedal" test without shoes, but never quite understood how it compensated for variations in shoe/cleat thickness short of being just an approximation.

I've always done it with shoes - standard cycling shoes with fairly low heels. It's worked for me, and when advising others.

Oh, and Kramlin, I think your saddle needs to go up maybe 2cm. Try it out. If it doesn't work, or you get more pain just drop it back down.

[kramlin]

I've posted two photos above with the cranks vertical, one with ball of foot and one with the heel on the pedal.

The post doesn't go up any higher than this - the bike shop where I got it from (CELL) insists that the bike is the right size and that was with the seat down a lot further than it is now (at max). So it seems it is not...

Someone suggested getting a longer seat post and stem? Is that a good option?

Also, for mountain biking, I understand you have the seat a bit lower, is the height ok for that as it is?

[Nobody]

For saddle height I found the Torpedo7 sizing chart to be good for me. I actually found my ideal height by trail and error to find it agrees with the chart:
http://www.torpedo7.com.au/torpedo7/pop ... sts/Clamps

For example I'm 5'8" or 173cm, inseam 82cm, with a current saddle height of 73cm. Can't put my heel on the pedal, but higher (74cm) feels too much with pointing of toes and ankle problems, less (71cm) feels like it gives me more knee problems.

I like to think that William Blake summed it up nicely 200 years ago when he said:

"You never know what is enough
until you know what is too much."

From:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/saddles.html

[Nobody]

I've posted two photos above with the cranks vertical, one with ball of foot and one with the heel on the pedal.

The post doesn't go up any higher than this - the bike shop where I got it from (CELL) insists that the bike is the right size and that was with the seat down a lot further than it is now (at max). So it seems it is not...

Someone suggested getting a longer seat post and stem? Is that a good option?

Also, for mountain biking, I understand you have the seat a bit lower, is the height ok for that as it is?

Have a look at the sizing chart above (in my previous post) and you tell us if the bike is the right size. You can get a longer seatpost, but be careful getting a longer stem for MTB as with your weight further forward you might go over the bars more. I've been told a long time ago that if you sit on the bike normally and look at the front axle, it should appear about 1" behind the bars to be an OK fit. Just a "ball park" measure that may not apply anymore.

As for having the seat "a bit lower", for XC MTB I haven't heard this myself. Maybe the downhill or freeride people like it this way, but do they do that much peddling?

[kramlin]

Have a look at the sizing chart above (in my previous post) and you tell us if the bike is the right size. You can get a longer seatpost, but be careful getting a longer stem for MTB as with your weight further forward you might go over the bars more. I've been told a long time ago that if you sit on the bike normally and look at the front axle, it should appear about 1" behind the bars to be an OK fit. Just a "ball park" measure that may not apply anymore.

As for having the seat "a bit lower", for XC MTB I haven't heard this myself. Maybe the downhill or freeride people like it this way, but do they do that much peddling?

My inseam is 79cm, so the frame size should be 16-17 inch. This frame is a 15.4 inch. The saddle height should be 69.8 cm but the max is 64 cm.

[Nobody]

First are you about 160cm tall?
What they don't tell you on the chart is with the book to one side, really push the book until it hits bone, then measure.
If 69.8cm saddle height then just get a 400mm post. I can almost make my daughter's 24" wheeled bike fit me with one of them. Getting the right reach with a stem might be a bit more difficult. Make sure you have the right saddle height (for you) first before playing with the stem length.

[il padrone]

the bike shop where I got it from (CELL) insists that the bike is the right size and that was with the seat down a lot further than it is now (at max).

And were they setting the bike up so you could touch the ground with both feet comfortably? A common approach taken for rank newbies - never a good setup for riding any distance.

So it seems it is not...

No, it seems not. Sorry.

Also, for mountain biking, I understand you have the seat a bit lower, is the height ok for that as it is?

Not generally the case for XC MTB riding. You still set up the bike for efficent pedalling on trails, especially for climbing, where a good saddle height matters. DH riders don't worry so much about saddle height, but they don't worry too much about pedalling either.

How tall are you? Long term you may find it good to consider an upgrade

[kramlin]

the bike shop where I got it from (CELL) insists that the bike is the right size and that was with the seat down a lot further than it is now (at max).

And were they setting the bike up so you could touch the ground with both feet comfortably? A common approach taken for rank newbies - never a good setup for riding any distance.

So it seems it is not...

No, it seems not. Sorry.

Also, for mountain biking, I understand you have the seat a bit lower, is the height ok for that as it is?

Not generally the case for XC MTB riding. You still set up the bike for efficent pedalling on trails, especially for climbing, where a good saddle height matters. DH riders don't worry so much about saddle height, but they don't worry too much about pedalling either.

How tall are you? Long term you may find it good to consider an upgrade

I'm 170cm tall. No they didn't set it up really... I just popped up on the bike, there wasn't much space to actually pedal, but they thought that was the right size. Bought it and went outside, and when I started pedalling, knew that the seat needed to be put up a bit.

Yeah I might have to upgrade o_O Now I'm wondering if I should sell it and get a road bike instead.

[Nobody]

...

Yeah I might have to upgrade o_O Now I'm wondering if I should sell it and get a road bike instead.

See if you can get it to fit you first which should be cheap enough. If you can get it to fit, try getting some 1.125 26" road slicks for the it, then lock-out the shocks and then see how you go. Might save you a lot of money. Having said that, 15.4" is fairly small for your height. I'm on a 17" and only 3cm taller. The virtual top tube length (from middle of head tube to middle of seat tube on a horizontal line) might be a better indication of size. Mine is 56cm and it fits me nicely.

Others should be along soon to persuade you to buy a new road bike. Unfortunately most of them will be suffering from the cycling disease "upgrade-itis", so unless you want to be like them, try to resist their persuasion.

Edit: I may have caught "upgrade-itis" already, so save yourself while you still can!

[RobS]

> I've always done it with shoes - standard cycling shoes with fairly low heels. It's worked for me, and when advising others.

I've found the heel with shoes method the best ball-parking method. From what I've read using the heel is the intention with that method.

The heel is less variable (but if it didn't work, the low variability would mean nothing). The foot method is subject to you bending your ankle.

[wombatK]

The post doesn't go up any higher than this - the bike shop where I got it from (CELL) insists that the bike is the right size and that was with the seat down a lot further than it is now (at max).

Seems like you got particularly poor service. In other threads, posters have referred to staff there that have a take-it-or-leave it sales approach - refusing to fit a bike to a customer until they commit to a purchase. Service isn't there long suit, and the photos posted above don't look like anyone fitted this bike for you.

If you didn't check that they had a larger version of your bike in stock at the time you purchased, how would you know they weren't just declaring the one you've got to be the right size just to get a sale ? How would you know there not just declaring it to be the right size now to avoid the cost of exchanging it for the size you really need ? Is it really fit for purpose ?
Given you can't put the seat up further, it hardly seems so.

While others have suggested a longer seat post would help, it doesn't get the geometry right and does little to fix other issues like the length of the top tube which will give you other grief.

But these are all questions you should be putting to the team at the bike shop. Don't get fobbed off with an attempt to blame the rider - it's nothing wrong with you. My calves were cramping up just looking at that first photo sogood posted for you.

[RobS]

> My inseam is 79cm, so the frame size should be 16-17 inch. This frame is a 15.4 inch. The saddle height should be 69.8 cm but the max is 64 cm.

That does seem small for you and even small for me. My inseam is 76cm and 17.5" to 20" tends to be the region that fits me. I adjust my seat to 83cm to the pedal center, which is about 66cm to the BB center.

> In other threads, posters have referred to staff there that have a take-it-or-leave it sales approach.

They are nice enough guys there but they seemed fairly disinterested in doing any sort of measurements or fitting. The business appears to work off high volume low margins, I suppose they don't want to put in too much time on each customer.

[Nobody]

It appears the Torpedo7 chart above is the LeMond method.

Bike Radar has an article which shows the Holmes method. I think the article is saying you need to get the knee bend right when on the bike which makes sense.

http://www.bikeradar.com/fitness/articl ... ight-14608