Road Rage Topic Another View

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ScouserDeluxe
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Road Rage Topic Another View

Postby ScouserDeluxe » Fri Nov 28, 2008 5:56 pm

After reading the road rage topic , which I think is terrible, do you think that we as cyclists might bring it on ourselves.( not all just some)
Bare with me here.
Yesterday morning I was driving, yes I also own a car, into work and was stopped at a set of traffic lights, a cyclist, on a decent racer with all the gear went straight through the lights and did a right turn just missing a car coming straight ahead.
I could see the other motorists sitting in their cars shaking their heads.

Now we were still at the same lights stopped on a red light when 2 more cyclists came down the middle of the stopped traffic and went straight ahead against a red light .
To tell you the truth I was pissed off at them, the rules are for everyone .

Just my opinion

Dave

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Postby JCB81 » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:01 pm

I have to agree. Obey the road rules like everyone else.

It particularly frustrates me when motorcyclists cut through traffic.

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Re: Road Rage Topic Another View

Postby wombatK » Fri Nov 28, 2008 6:29 pm

ScouserDeluxe wrote:After reading the road rage topic , which I think is terrible, do you think that we as cyclists might bring it on ourselves.( not all just some)
Bare with me here.
Yesterday morning I was driving, yes I also own a car, into work and was stopped at a set of traffic lights, a cyclist, on a decent racer with all the gear went straight through the lights and did a right turn just missing a car coming straight ahead.
I could see the other motorists sitting in their cars shaking their heads.

Now we were still at the same lights stopped on a red light when 2 more cyclists came down the middle of the stopped traffic and went straight ahead against a red light .
To tell you the truth I was pissed off at them, the rules are for everyone .

Just my opinion

Dave

Two wrongs don't make a right. Motorists that can't see that or want to use occasional reckless cyclist behavior to excuse reckless motorists behavior aren't right.

Shaking your head at an errant cyclist is a fair enough reaction, but getting p*ed off at them is dangerously close to allowing your emotions to take control of you. How are you going to control a lethal weapon like a car if you allow your emotions to take control of you ? Yes the rules are for everyone, and its' the job of the police to enforce them - not vigilante motorists.

Stand at any traffic light without red-light camera, and you will find hundreds of motorists illegally running amber and red lights (the law says stop if its amber, not go faster to make it through before cars start coming from the right). Huge number of motorists flout this law, and other laws - particularly those relating to speeding. Do motorists get p*ed off when they see other motorists doing this ? I doubt it.

Does it justify me as a cyclist running a red light or flouting other laws ? No. Should I get p*ed off with them ? No. I've got to stay in control of my emotions and my bicycle in order to keep myself safe. A responsible road users job is to stay cool, calm and collected - and in control of their vehicle regardless of provocation and regardless of whether their vehicle is a bicycle or a car.
WombatK

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Re: Road Rage Topic Another View

Postby Kev365428 » Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:12 pm

wombatK wrote:
ScouserDeluxe wrote:After reading the road rage topic , which I think is terrible, do you think that we as cyclists might bring it on ourselves.( not all just some)
Bare with me here.
Yesterday morning I was driving, yes I also own a car, into work and was stopped at a set of traffic lights, a cyclist, on a decent racer with all the gear went straight through the lights and did a right turn just missing a car coming straight ahead.
I could see the other motorists sitting in their cars shaking their heads.

Now we were still at the same lights stopped on a red light when 2 more cyclists came down the middle of the stopped traffic and went straight ahead against a red light .
To tell you the truth I was pissed off at them, the rules are for everyone .

Just my opinion

Dave

Two wrongs don't make a right. Motorists that can't see that or want to use occasional reckless cyclist behavior to excuse reckless motorists behavior aren't right.
Where did the OP state that the motorists were using the bad behavior of the cyclists to justify reckless behavior by motorists?

wombatK wrote:Shaking your head at an errant cyclist is a fair enough reaction, but getting p*ed off at them is dangerously close to allowing your emotions to take control of you.
How so? I've shaken my head in disbelief on more occasions than I care to remember, but I'm yet to go postal because of it.

wombatK wrote:How are you going to control a lethal weapon like a car if you allow your emotions to take control of you?
Who said they lost control of their emotions?

wombatK wrote:Yes the rules are for everyone, and its' the job of the police to enforce them - not vigilante motorists.
Where did this come from?

wombatK wrote:Stand at any traffic light without red-light camera, and you will find hundreds of motorists illegally running amber and red lights (the law says stop if its amber, not go faster to make it through before cars start coming from the right). Huge number of motorists flout this law, and other laws - particularly those relating to speeding. Do motorists get p*ed off when they see other motorists doing this ? I doubt it.
Well, as a motorist, motorcyclist, and a bicyclist, I can honestly say that whoever runs a red light and places others in danger because of their actions p!ss me off.

wombatK wrote:Does it justify me as a cyclist running a red light or flouting other laws?
(which is the point the OP was trying to make, but in reverse).

wombatK wrote: Should I get p*ed off with them ? No. I've got to stay in control of my emotions and my bicycle in order to keep myself safe. A responsible road users job is to stay cool, calm and collected - and in control of their vehicle regardless of provocation and regardless of whether their vehicle is a bicycle or a car.
Good point and philosophy, and in no way a conradiction of the OP's own stance.

I like a rant more than most people, but I think your making a heck of a lot of assumptions, and misinterpreting the original post for more than it was - a dig at a cyclist who did the wrong thing

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Re: Road Rage Topic Another View

Postby Hebden » Fri Nov 28, 2008 7:44 pm

Kev365428 wrote:I've shaken my head in disbelief on more occasions than I care to remember, but I'm yet to go postal because of it.

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Road Rage Topic Another View

Postby wombatK » Fri Nov 28, 2008 9:38 pm

Kev365428 wrote:Where did the OP state that the motorists were using the bad behavior of the cyclists to justify reckless behavior by motorists?

He asked a hypothetical question that opened the imputation that cyclists bring it on themselves. The OP did not state that motorists were using the cyclists bad behavior to justify reckless behavior - but if he wasn't implying that, why ask the question ?
Kev365428 wrote:
wombatK wrote:Shaking your head at an errant cyclist is a fair enough reaction, but getting p*ed off at them is dangerously close to allowing your emotions to take control of you.
How so? I've shaken my head in disbelief on more occasions than I care to remember, but I'm yet to go postal because of it.

I do not disagree or frown upon shaking your head at stupid behavior (and do so lots myself). It's the next step up of getting angry about it that I have an issue with.
Kev365428 wrote:Who said they lost control of their emotions?
It was a question, not a statement.
Kev365428 wrote:
wombatK wrote:Stand at any traffic light without red-light camera, and you will find hundreds of motorists illegally running amber and red lights ...
Well, as a motorist, motorcyclist, and a bicyclist, I can honestly say that whoever runs a red light and places others in danger because of their actions p!ss me off.

So what does it achieve getting p!ssed off ? It doesn't change the other persons behavior (they can't even tell your p!ssed off), and it mentally distracts your attention from more important things.
Kev365428 wrote:I like a rant more than most people, but I think your making a heck of a lot of assumptions, and misinterpreting the original post for more than it was - a dig at a cyclist who did the wrong thing

Well maybe I have drawn one or two more points than the OP intended - but isn't that the point of a discussion ? I'm quite happy for people to express disapproval with stupid cyclists behavior on forums like this, but I prefer to not see it expressed in anger or have it distract riders while they're on the road. And I'd rather not have an imputation left open that some cyclists deserve or cause poor treatment by motorists.
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Postby russellgarrard » Fri Nov 28, 2008 10:40 pm

What does irritate me is the jeer's I get from PEDESTRIANS for DARING to stop before a pedestrian crossing! Sorry I don't want to hit you with 85kg of weight travelling at a average velocity of 15km/h....others though are quite surprised.

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Postby 318ute » Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:37 am

As a daily cycling commuter I see it all the time!
Bad manners and or people completely disobeying road rules...and this is regardless of their mode of transport.

We as cyclists wish to be and must be treated equally & fairly on the road!
Our behaviour has to better than most to survive and we owe it to all cyclists to be the better road user and stop at the lights and use common sense when we are on the road!

So I try not to give anyone any excuse to bitch & moan about cyclists!
Unfortunately there are some cyclists that use the roads like some idiot motorists.

Steve.

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Re: Road Rage Topic Another View

Postby Kev365428 » Sat Nov 29, 2008 8:43 am

wombatK wrote:
Kev365428 wrote:Where did the OP state that the motorists were using the bad behavior of the cyclists to justify reckless behavior by motorists?

He asked a hypothetical question that opened the imputation that cyclists bring it on themselves. The OP did not state that motorists were using the cyclists bad behavior to justify reckless behavior - but if he wasn't implying that, why ask the question ?
Fair point. I didn't realise the OP was actually asking a question :oops: (no puntuation used :x )
wombatK wrote:
Kev365428 wrote:
wombatK wrote:Shaking your head at an errant cyclist is a fair enough reaction, but getting p*ed off at them is dangerously close to allowing your emotions to take control of you.
How so? I've shaken my head in disbelief on more occasions than I care to remember, but I'm yet to go postal because of it.

I do not disagree or frown upon shaking your head at stupid behavior (and do so lots myself). It's the next step up of getting angry about it that I have an issue with.
But no-one mentioned getting angry apart from you. The OP just shook his head and said he was p!ssed.

wombatK wrote:
Kev365428 wrote:Who said they lost control of their emotions?
It was a question, not a statement.
The implication was there that the OP lost control of his emotions, at least that's how I read it.

wombatK wrote:
Kev365428 wrote:
wombatK wrote:Stand at any traffic light without red-light camera, and you will find hundreds of motorists illegally running amber and red lights ...
Well, as a motorist, motorcyclist, and a bicyclist, I can honestly say that whoever runs a red light and places others in danger because of their actions p!ss me off.

So what does it achieve getting p!ssed off ? It doesn't change the other persons behavior (they can't even tell your p!ssed off), and it mentally distracts your attention from more important things.
Getting p1ssed off doesn't acheive anything, much like every other emotion we experience. The OP wasn't out to promote that getting p!ssed was going to solve the problem, he just made the statement that he was p1ssed off by the actions of the cyclist.

wombatK wrote:
Kev365428 wrote:I like a rant more than most people, but I think your making a heck of a lot of assumptions, and misinterpreting the original post for more than it was - a dig at a cyclist who did the wrong thing

Well maybe I have drawn one or two more points than the OP intended - but isn't that the point of a discussion ? I'm quite happy for people to express disapproval with stupid cyclists behavior on forums like this, but I prefer to not see it expressed in anger or have it distract riders while they're on the road. And I'd rather not have an imputation left open that some cyclists deserve or cause poor treatment by motorists.


Going around in circles here, but I aree for the most part. The forum is about discussion and deabte, but I still stand by the statement that IMHO the OP did not imply that cyclists should be subjected to poor treatment, but that the actions of some cyclists might be responsible, in part, for the treatment we all receive on occasions.

To draw an analogy, (and I really didn't want to mention religion, but it is pertinent in this day and age) prior to Sep 11, any mention of the Muslim faith in Aus would have been received with a shrug of the shoulders and a non-plussed look from a great deal of Australians. Now I'de put a large wager on the fact a large portion of non-Muslim Aussies think all Muslims are terrorists. Is this true? No, of course not, but the actions of a minority affect the way the majority is viewed. It's undeniable. It happens in religious circles (as mentioned), political circles (vote labour and your a union flunkie, vote green and your a hippie), and geographical locations (live on the north side of Sydney you must be rich, or live out west and your a flannel wearing bogan). Neither statement is true for the majority of that group, but the perception amongst the general public is re-enforced every time some-one acts in the way their group is perceived.

Anyway, it's a good discussion. Keeps my mornings busy. :lol:

Kev.

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Postby ScouserDeluxe » Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:20 am

Sorry, I should have been more specific, when I said I was p!ssed off at them, I should have said, I was pi!sed off at them because it just makes it harder for decent cyclists to get a fair go, a number of my non riding friends do say that cyclists think they own the road and dont believe the rules apply to them.
Now after the previous mornings events I can see why they would think that.

Dave

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Postby DaveW » Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:25 pm

I think the material point is that sometimes cyclists do elevate the initial offense by their reaction to it, and sometimes they initiate a situation where a motorist reacts incorrectly.

There is rarely a situation where one party is 100% to blame.

As horrible as the situation was, and as wrong as the motorist was in this situation, the event in the north subrbs of Perth (Marmion and Burns Beach road) where a motorist reversed over a small group of cycilsts and then forward over them, injuring them and damaging bikes (destroying one) could have been avoided if the cyclists had not reacted badly.

LET ME STATE HERE, that the motorist was 100% at fault; but let's put a different reaction on the cyclists and see what happens.

The motorist cuts close to them simply because he is being a mongrel and he hates cyclists. He scares them but does not cause any real damage.

At the lights, the cyclists stop back from this obviously aggressive motorist and complain among themselves about his actions.

The motorist sees the lights change green and takes off spinning the wheels and races off down the road and gets booked for speeding.

The cyclists ride past laughing (and quickly find a side road so he can't find them :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: )

No injury, no real trouble.

Instead the group of four rode up either side of the car and verbally gave him what for.

This enraged the motorist and he took revenge.

You see the situation could have been avoided if the cyclists were more circumspect.

Please don't misinterprate this as me saying the cyclists were to blame - the motorist was a total mongrel start to finish.

But the situation was escalated by an understable, but provocative reaction.

There have been others here that have done similar things and posted about it - doing something reactively to peeve a motorist who was illegal or irresponsible.
Justified? Probably, but a cyclist does not win an argument with a car.

Sometimes discretion is the better part of valour.

He he turns and runs away, lives to run another day! :lol: :lol:

And the Bible says a soft answer turns away wrath.

(PS - I know some will now attack me for trying to blame the cyclist but I am not - really I am not - it is just that if you react badly you end up in a fight.)

I have to go and find my flame proof suit now.. :roll:
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Postby provoked » Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:51 pm

Sorry, double posted...somehow.
Last edited by provoked on Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Postby provoked » Sat Nov 29, 2008 12:55 pm

Completely agree with the OP and above post.

wombatK wrote:Huge number of motorists flout this law, and other laws - particularly those relating to speeding. Do motorists get p*ed off when they see other motorists doing this ? I doubt it.


I sure do, Bicycle, Motorcycle, Car, Truck, pedestrian...whatever, the rules are for all forms of vehicles, breaking them receives the same reaction from me.

I'm, new to cycling, and besides cyclists breaking the law, it amazes me how some cyclists are willing to risk their life this way. The way I see it, we are already vulnerable enough as it is. We really don't need to take extra risks or get sh!itty enough with motorists to place a crosshair on ourselves. This is not to say that I never get annoyed by inconsiderate motorists, I often do. But I generally keep my mouth shut because 1 tonne of metal will probably win against 11 odd kg of aluminium.

The idea is to have a nice ride, and get home! (right?)

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Postby im_no_pro » Sat Nov 29, 2008 1:17 pm

I tend to take a fairly simple point of view. Doesnt matter whether you are on a Bicycle, Motor bike or in a car, there is one common factor: they are all controlled by humans. Humans do stupid things, and you need to take this into account as a road user, regardless of your method of travel.

You cant influence others decisions that easily. Do the right thing yourself and be aware of other road users.

Accidents are always going to happen, as will incidents (not every crash/near miss is an accident as has been pointed out in many threads by manyusers)
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Postby Aushiker » Sat Nov 29, 2008 2:02 pm

ScouserDeluxe wrote:Sorry, I should have been more specific, when I said I was p!ssed off at them, I should have said, I was pi!sed off at them because it just makes it harder for decent cyclists to get a fair go, a number of my non riding friends do say that cyclists think they own the road and dont believe the rules apply to them.
Now after the previous mornings events I can see why they would think that.

Dave


I understand where you are coming from Dave. I get it at work as well and comments about "rights." That one I like. Nothing better than pointing out that no one has a right to the road, just a licence to drive a vehicle, a licence than can be removed. That plus pointing out a vehicle can be a weapon and they can kill, whereas myself as a cyclist can only at worst scratch their paint. The I offer them the opportunity to tell my kids they want to kill me because I ride a bike. That usually does the trick :)

Andrew

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Postby il padrone » Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:03 pm

Aushiker wrote:I get it at work as well and comments about "rights." That one I like. Nothing better than pointing out that no one has a right to the road, just a licence to drive a vehicle, a licence than can be removed.

Actually [pedant] I do believe that the 'right' does exist - for pedestrians (?) and to an extent cyclists too. They all have no licence to remove, hence their 'right' to use the road (subject to road rules) is more tangible and permanent. I do know there's no such thing as a 'right of way' for road users but I do not believe the use of public roads can be removed from ordinary people.[/pedant]

Aushiker wrote:That plus pointing out a vehicle can be a weapon and they can kill, whereas myself as a cyclist can only at worst scratch their paint. The I offer them the opportunity to tell my kids they want to kill me because I ride a bike. That usually does the trick :)

And a good trick it is too :D

However the people I work with never get anywhere near threatening to run me off the road. If you have this problem, lodge a workplace harassment claim :wink:
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Postby Aushiker » Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:17 pm

il padrone wrote:I do know there's no such thing as a 'right of way' for road users but I do not believe the use of public roads can be removed from ordinary people.[/pedant]


Access to roads can be removed at will. We don't have rights as far as I can see enshrined in law or the constitution.

Rights are a perception from too much US TV from my perspective.

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Postby Bnej » Sat Nov 29, 2008 3:41 pm

Aushiker wrote:Access to roads can be removed at will. We don't have rights as far as I can see enshrined in law or the constitution.


You would need a specific law passed to forbid a person from using the road.

Current laws do forbid access in some circumstances - e.g, no pedestrian access signage.

A driver's licence gives doesn't give you access to the road, you have that already. It gives you permission to operate a motor vehicle of a certain class on a *public* road.

The registration process then makes your normally forbidden motor vehicle "road legal", which allows that vehicle to be driven on public roads according to the road rules.

You can of course operate whatever you want on private roads, and you can access public roads without a motor vehicle without any permit at all.

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Postby Aushiker » Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:54 pm

Bnej wrote:
Aushiker wrote:Access to roads can be removed at will. We don't have rights as far as I can see enshrined in law or the constitution.


You would need a specific law passed to forbid a person from using the road.


Roads are closed all the time; access is restricted all the time within current laws... there is nothing new in that and no new laws are needed to achieve that.

We do not have "rights of way" in Australian law as far as I understand it. If you reckon otherwise please point to the legislation

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Postby Aushiker » Sat Nov 29, 2008 7:58 pm

Bnej wrote:you can access public roads without a motor vehicle without any permit at all.


Access does not equate to "right". Right implies some unrestricted, undeniable access to the road. I don't believe we have that. As I asked previously, if you feel that a right exists I would be interested in seeing the law that provides that.

Andrew

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Postby Bnej » Sat Nov 29, 2008 9:32 pm

Aushiker wrote:Roads are closed all the time; access is restricted all the time within current laws... there is nothing new in that and no new laws are needed to achieve that.


If you want to prohibit a specific person or group of people from ever using a public road, whilst maintaining access generally, then you will need a law to do that.

Perhaps "rights" means something different to you. Anything not forbidden is allowed.

I doubt there's anywhere in the world that would afford you the "right" to drive through the middle of a road works site.

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Postby Aushiker » Sun Nov 30, 2008 12:44 pm

Bnej wrote:Perhaps "rights" means something different to you. Anything not forbidden is allowed.
Right ...


Andrew

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Re: Road Rage Topic Another View

Postby Chris L » Mon Dec 01, 2008 2:41 pm

ScouserDeluxe wrote:After reading the road rage topic , which I think is terrible, do you think that we as cyclists might bring it on ourselves.( not all just some)


Nope. The simple fact is, a single incident of a cyclist running a red light or whatever is not going to change a motorists' overall view of cyclists. If you don't believe me, try changing your own lifelong views on a particular issue just to see how much disclipline and control it really takes, then imagine trying to do that with someone else. It's like making a whale swim in a different direction by throwing a tadpole at it. It's not going to happen.

Even if that was the case, I'd then be quite justified in physically attacking motorists I saw breaking the law (which happens on a daily basis). In fact, I've been back in Australia less than 24 hours, and have already seen several incidents that I could have reported to the police if it was something they were ever likely to pursue. It doesn't change my overall view of motorists as a group, it doesn't motivate me to physically attack them or wish they were all dead, and nor should it.

Ultimately, the old "they bring it on themselves" argument is just something people use in an attempt to justify their own prejudices. I see the same nonsense arguments perpetuated to justify hatred of other groups all the time. The real problem arises when we see law enforcement officers, judges and even the victims themselves trying to perpetuate it, which ultimately results in people perpetuating assaults on cyclists and simply getting away with it, because some idiot judge thought "screw them, they deserve it anyway".

If you went to a motoring forum and ran the old "the lawbreakers give us a bad name" post over there, you'd be run off the board with abuse within minutes. Yet for some reason, as cyclists, we're expected to live with it and simply accept it. Isn't it just a little ironic that we see (some) motorists complaining about cyclists breaking laws, yet whenever a politician proposes greater law enforcement, it's always the same motorists who scream about it until the idea is dropped? Aren't all those "current affairs" stories that complain about fines and 'revenue raising' aimed at disgruntled motorists?

I would have thought that if they were really concerned about people breaking the law, they'd be all for law enforcement.

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Postby azzurribike » Mon Dec 01, 2008 5:50 pm

The only way to win this situation is not to play the game.

Just ride as safe as you can and don't perpetuate the Driver Cyclist aggro by reacting to what they do. Some of us cyclists are not saints either and by the samer token the majority of both cyclists and drivers are very safe.

Don't play! :wink:

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