The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

[il padrone]

Now I know some on here will bag this as a "wheel-sucker" and verging on criminal, but I can say that I may at times ride in the draft of some-one I do not know but may judge to be riding in a predictable manner. I don't agree with the idea that this is somehow a danger to the lead rider.

It is much the same as tailgating in a car.

No it is not. When driving and too close your view ahead is blind, and cars do not nornmally have much capacity for drivers to veer to avoid an obstacle. When riding (with someone who is half-capable of riding a straight and steady line) the lead rider will often obviously veer to avoid obstacles; also as a skilled drafter I would sit slightly to one side of a stranger's line to see ahead as well, and thus have greater capacity to be ready for any stops. BTW, I am not talking about riding a 20cm gap either, but just riding about 1m back.

There is obviously a substantial increase in danger as the leader now cannot brake without running the risk of the tailgater running up their backside.

The only thing a lead rider needs to do is to stop pedalling and don't you worry, any moderately experienced draft rider will be on the brakes quick-smart.

The only true danger is the duffus freakin' idiot who does a brake-check out of spite.

[lobstermash]

That's pretty 'special' from the guy in front, but even 1m back from someone that doesn't know/want someone on their tail is pretty close. In this case, the 1m gap and a sudden brake put both of them off the bike, so clearly it wasn't a safe distance...

[MisuVir]

No it is not. When driving and too close your view ahead is blind, and cars do not nornmally have much capacity for drivers to veer to avoid an obstacle. When riding (with someone who is half-capable of riding a straight and steady line) the lead rider will often obviously veer to avoid obstacles; also as a skilled drafter I would sit slightly to one side of a stranger's line to see ahead as well, and thus have greater capacity to be ready for any stops. BTW, I am not talking about riding a 20cm gap either, but just riding about 1m back.

All well and good... assuming that the person following and the person leading are experienced and know what they're doing. Personally, I prefer to work on the assumption that other people are numpties. I don't like having people drafting because it puts me at the mercy of the the tail, so I'll get really if you persist in following even after I've told you to go.

Putting aside that argument and notwithstanding the idiocy of the guy who slammed on his brakes, why didn't your mate pull away after the other guy told him to get lost? He was aware that the person he was following was (1) not happy with him being there, and (2) likely in a bad mood.

[TheWall]

Isn't etiquette to call out to the rider in front..."on yer wheel" or something similar?

It does annoy me a little when people do not tell you they are there.

Not excusing the braking obviously,..

[Lukeyboy]

Riding fast in a paceline isn't the same as riding behind some random on the street/shared pathway.

[il padrone]

Riding fast in a paceline isn't the same as riding behind some random on the street/shared pathway.

^^^ This precisely. He was just riding his commute along a fairly well frequented shared path. People who cannot cope with a tailing rider should go ride their own private Idaho

[bychosis]

If you are travelling a little faster than the rider in front, it will take some time to overtake and if th opportunity is not available sitting behind them for a short while waiting for an opportunity isn't really drafting is it?

I had a bloke get cranky at me one afternoon commute. HE was too busy worrying about me behind that he near ran into some peds in front of him. I'd been catching him for ages and happened to tuck in behind for short section that I wouldn't normally overtake on, a little rise that narrows in and has a quick left right. After the near miss I overtook him in the clear and he raced up beside me shortly after shouting something about being sick of all MTB riders and then challenged me to hang on while speeding up to 40km/h on the sharepath. I couldn't keep up, but another MTB rider managed to tag on for longer. Must've made the roadies day

[greyhoundtom]

^^^^^^^ See road rage applies to cyclists as well.

[bychosis]

^^^^^^^ See road rage applies to cyclists as well.

The incident really made me wonder what he was so upset about MTB riders for, but on reflection he was just lashing out at the nearest person for his own shortcomings.

[g-boaf]

Now I know some on here will bag this as a "wheel-sucker" and verging on criminal, but I can say that I may at times ride in the draft of some-one I do not know but may judge to be riding in a predictable manner. I don't agree with the idea that this is somehow a danger to the lead rider.

It is much the same as tailgating in a car. There is obviously a substantial increase in danger as the leader now cannot brake without running the risk of the tailgater running up their backside. This is a hazard that doesn't exist if the tailgater is not there. The tailgater is putting pressure on the leader - pressure to maintain speed, pressure to avoid braking, and pressure to hold a straight line.

That said, slamming on your brakes when you know somebody is tailgating is a stupid move. I wouldn't do it in a car and I certainly wouldn't do it on a bike - it is only going to result in damage to your car/bike and yourself.

If you are going to follow some random person - then at least be good enough to let them know you are going to do that and give them the opportunity to say yes or no.

I had one on Sunday doing this to me without asking me. I was going fairly slow, but obviously quick enough to go ahead of him. As soon as I did, it was immediate - about 15 minutes of it.

I forced him to do a few turns and eventually got to a more hilly section and put the hammer down and dropped him. I'm surprised he didn't see what I was going to do - it was pretty obvious. Downshift ahead of corner, faster pedaling...

I'm happy to lead someone along - just as long as they let me know they are there. Tell me what speed you want me to go at and I might even do that for you as well, if I'm able to.

I'm sure they could find a faster rider to chase, I'm just about the slowest of the slow.

[herzog]

riding his commute along a fairly well frequented shared path. People who cannot cope with a tailing rider should go ride their own private Idaho

Padrone,

I partly disagree with you on this one. At the point where the guy made it clear he wasn't comfortable with the situation
your "friend" (it was really you wasn't it?) should have either backed off, or gone around.

Getting tailgated by a random on a PSP can be uncomfortable for a rider in front. It forces them to constantly head check and adds complexity each time they approach a pedestrian and need to overtake.

The rider in front doesn't have eyes in the back of their head, and will constantly worry about wheel overlap, each time they have to slightly change their line for glass, pedestrians etc. Manageable - if the guy in back is a regular ride companion, but concerning when it's a random.

In other words it can spoil an otherwise enjoyable ride.

That said, it's no excuse for the brake check, but it sounds like both riders could have handled the situation better.

[human909]

Riding fast in a paceline isn't the same as riding behind some random on the street/shared pathway.

^^^ This precisely. He was just riding his commute along a fairly well frequented shared path. People who cannot cope with a tailing rider should go ride their own private Idaho

I too gotta disagree with you here. If for whatever reason somebody requests that you keep your distance then, politeness would suggest that you don't continue tailgating.

That said I've picked up wheel suckers and I've been a wheel sucker myself. I don't complain, nor have I had complaints.

[silentC]

At the point where the guy made it clear he wasn't comfortable with the situation
your "friend" (it was really you wasn't it?) should have either backed off, or gone around.

+1

Otherwise you're just aggravating the other rider for no reason.

I went past a male and female rider once. They immediately sped up and sat on my tail for about a km. I didn't even know they were there until I did a head check at the end of the path where you merge with traffic on the parallel road. They said 'thanks' for the tow but it would have been nice to know they were up my clacker. I would have gone a bit harder

[il padrone]

At the point where the guy made it clear he wasn't comfortable with the situation
your "friend" (it was really you wasn't it?) should have either backed off, or gone around.

+1

Otherwise you're just aggravating the other rider for no reason.

I was not there.

But I gather that when my friend asked what his problem was, the brake-check came almost instantaneously. I would have recommended that my mate should call the police for an assault charge to be laid.

The incident has hit my friend to the point where he has been put off cycling.

[fat and old]

I feel sorry for the poor bastard if they're lowered to my level and suck wheel

It does put me off a bit though.....

[silentC]

I gather that when my friend asked what his problem was ...

The point to pull back or pass was when the guy told him to F*** off. That would have been enough for me anyway. What's the point of attempting a conversation with someone like that? I'd have just said "you're a sh** draft anyway" and hoped my legs didn't give out before I'd laid down a good lead

[g-boaf]

At the point where the guy made it clear he wasn't comfortable with the situation
your "friend" (it was really you wasn't it?) should have either backed off, or gone around.

+1

Otherwise you're just aggravating the other rider for no reason.

I was not there.

But I gather that when my friend asked what his problem was, the brake-check came almost instantaneously. I would have recommended that my mate should call the police for an assault charge to be laid.

The incident has hit my friend to the point where he has been put off cycling.

No, I think this is one of those cycling incidents that wouldn't have happened if both parties were more sensible. Your friend ought to just accept that it happened - rest up, recover and learn from what happened - ie, don't do it again.

If you want to follow closely another rider who you don't know and they don't know you are there, ask them first before doing so - meaning you come up alongside them when there is room and it is safe to do so. If they aren't okay with it, then back off 10 metres. It's the right thing to do. It is good manners and it helps safety.

I understand that it might be hard to accept given that your friend is involved. But you've got to be careful and cautious. You've got to assume the rider ahead doesn't know you are there and make them aware of it - if you want to follow their wheel, ask first.

I did it the other day myself. I explained that I was only going slowly and I'd follow if it was okay, but several metres back.

[rdp_au]

Have to agree with the general consensus here - good form would have been to drop back or pass as soon as it was clear the other chap wasn't happy. Also agree that his actions were completely unwarranted - and stupid - he was worried about a wheelsucker causing a crash, and then deliberately precipitates one!

As to whether wheel sucking is ok in these circumstances, well, that's another matter. Personally, I don't do it.

[wellington_street]

Whilst I think that the front rider's actions were pretty distasteful, your mate was clearly following too close seeing as he could not stop in time. The arguments IP has been saying about visibility etc. are the same crap that !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !! truck drivers wheel out when they are defending their tailgating. You have a valid point about bicycles being able to weave but obviously your friend was following too close even to weave out of the way. Regardless of whether it was a deliberate brake check or a legitimate hazard, your friend has to be able to stop safely in time or otherwise avoid the crash - it's the law.

[outnabike]

I don't' know why a bloke wants to ride right behind another bike, for the sake of it, but to brake in that situation is a serious mistake.
I have always had the view that if I catch up to a vehicle, sooner or later if I get the chance, I will overtake. If they catch me, same story. If a stranger wants to sit back a metre I will slow and let him through.
I don't see a contest or that I have something to prove. I just let them go.
Who would ask another rider "what's your problem" when they have asked you to bugger off. I would say they both have a perceptual problem and probably should break with the theatrics and ride like adults.
That front rider may be in his "my time" thing and hate other cyclists. I enjoy seeing other cyclists out there,I am always cheerfull with them, they are me in another persona.
Two blokes on a path enjoying a ride, but both don't understand human nature.

[silentC]

Like much of human behaviour it is unfathomable. The more I get to know people, the more I like my dog

[richbee]

the brake-check came almost instantaneously

There's no excuse for that, if you don't like wheel suckers slow down and let them pass, or put in the hurt so bad they'll wish they'd never latched onto your wheel in the first place.
If someone brake-checks me I'd pass them and give them a good shove into the gutter, bushes, off the side of a bridge, whatever.

[g-boaf]

the brake-check came almost instantaneously

There's no excuse for that, if you don't like wheel suckers slow down and let them pass, or put in the hurt so bad they'll wish they'd never latched onto your wheel in the first place.
If someone brake-checks me I'd pass them and give them a good shove into the gutter, bushes, off the side of a bridge, whatever.

Brake checks are not on, but nor is shoving people into the gutter, etc. If it's going to get to that, we might as well all stop riding and bike riding might as well be made illegal.

[il padrone]

No, I think this is one of those cycling incidents that wouldn't have happened if both parties were more sensible. Your friend ought to just accept that it happened - rest up, recover and learn from what happened - ie, don't do it again.

Yes, he's doing all of that, and he's commuting by bike still. But he's significantly put off riding with other cyclists and has not been on our club rides since this. A real shame. Not really looking good at the moment.

I understand that it might be hard to accept given that your friend is involved. But you've got to be careful and cautious. You've got to assume the rider ahead doesn't know you are there and make them aware of it - if you want to follow their wheel, ask first.

It was only a commute ride, only fairly briefly tailing another rider - not the sort of situation where some velominati-rules requires permission to join the hallowed mufti. Sadly he didn't know it was the biggest prat; the one who outdoes the Mad Rabbott for the 'A**ehole of the Year' award.

[cp123]

your friend poked a dog. the dog growled back. your friend poked him again by asking what's your problem. The dog bit. Whose fault is that? The dog was giving the signals loud and clear but your friend chose not to listen.