The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

[TTar]

A couple of things. He's riding one handed. His view and capacity to manoeuvre is limited by his proximity to the bus.

And he stayed in the bike lane the whole time too!

And disengaged with some aplomb and rode with skill and assurance the entire length of the video.

As a responsible adult, I suppose I shouldn't commend the kid for his rad skitching skillz (or whatever the young folk say today), but neither do I feel compelled to join in with tabloid tv's hysteria and lynch mob.

Later, hep cats.

EDIT: And no way was that bus travelling 80km/h. All that "report" says is the bus reached that speed. When the kid was skitching, though? Probably not, just more tabloid hype.

[Mountcyclo]

Really think that kid is taking foolish and dangerous risks. If the bus suddenly slammed on its brakes for some reason the youngster who is riding one handed at such speeds would have little hope of manouvering himself out of the way let alone stopping.

Good chance he would end up underneath the bus or at least sprawled out onto the road.

[human909]

And disengaged with some aplomb and rode with skill and assurance the entire length of the video.

Exactly.

I think people should stop trying to judge other on what THEY themselves see as too risky. Personally I find the thought of crit racing far too dangerous. But I don't judge others based on their approach to risk or their better skills to handle the risk.

Now if we wanted to say that kid was engaging in impolite and illegal behaviour that put other road users in an uncomfortable situation then I would be inclined to agree.

Really think that kid is taking foolish and dangerous risks.

Most people think the same about road cyclists. Now you are just repeating the judgment.

If the bus suddenly slammed on its brakes for some reason the youngster who is riding one handed at such speeds would have little hope of manouvering himself out of the way let alone stopping.

Correct. (But he would not immediately need to do either. )

Good chance he would end up underneath the bus or at least sprawled out onto the road.

Incorrect. He is on the left of the bus, if the bus brakes he starts overtaking the bus. Really? Does this need to be explained?

[warthog1]

If it were my son on that video I'd be telling him off. Yes I think it increases the chance of injury, and I don't want him injured. However I do let him play footy and that brings with it a pretty good chance of injury, so I'm not wrapping him in cotton wool.
The media hype surrounding this, is a bit ott. Chances are it will only increase the incidence of this behavior. Plenty of youngsters don't give a feck what us oldies say, I know I didn't. A few might see it and say that looks like fun and if it pisses off conservative old buggers then that's even more reason.

[Lukeyboy]

Good chance he would end up underneath the bus or at least sprawled out onto the road.

Incorrect. He is on the left of the bus, if the bus brakes he starts overtaking the bus. Really? Does this need to be explained?

That depends on his grip. If its lose he should shoot past like you said or if its too tight he could get put off balance which could lead to anything from making a b line for the gutter, sideswiping the bus or a slight speed wobble with 99.99% recoverability.

[human909]

That depends on his grip. If its lose he should shoot past like you said or if its too tight he could get put off balance which could lead to anything from making a b line for the gutter, sideswiping the bus or a slight speed wobble with 99.99% recoverability.

A tight grip won't put you off balance. The second the bus brakes the tension in you arm slackens off and you elbow bends. When you sense this is is easy to let go.

Sure you can imagine scenarios where the riding falls and gets hurt. Same with riding down a steep mountain road or down a MTB single track. The whole point in these situations is to stay within your ability. Nothing in that video suggests the riding was not doing so.

[Percrime]

Yeah. Like I said the only thing realistically likely to kill him will be being run over by the filming car. Incidentally that's being filmed from the drivers position.
Gunna make the channel 9 news but. How sad is that?

[minhyy]

^ yeah was gonna point that out, was the driver filming it on his phone while driving??

re: the kid and one-handed riding in general, I give it benefit of the doubt in that they are sensible enough to assess the risks involved and engage in it if they believe they are capable of doing so. I mean, before STI levers, riders would have done mountain descents and whatnot with downtube shifters...

[Mountcyclo]

I recollect this sort of thing came up many years ago when I was a kid. Cyclists were hanging onto the back of lorries (now called trucks) going up hills and there were a couple of accidents, so long ago can't remember the details.

There was something of a safety campain about it then, as has been remarked kids won't listen if they think it is a cool thing to do.

[Percrime]

^ yeah was gonna point that out, was the driver filming it on his phone while driving??

Be my guess. Of course he could possibly have been ineptly spiitting lanes while his passenger filmed. But my guess is he was driving one handed and fliming with his phone while as close as he could get to the cyclist.... and presenting the biggest real danger to the cyclists life. This in order to properly chastise the cyclist for doing dangerous stuff

[kenwstr]

^ yeah was gonna point that out, was the driver filming it on his phone while driving??

re: the kid and one-handed riding in general, I give it benefit of the doubt in that they are sensible enough to assess the risks involved and engage in it if they believe they are capable of doing so. I mean, before STI levers, riders would have done mountain descents and whatnot with downtube shifters...

Up until 10 weeks ago, I was still using down tube shifters and I don't see any reason to touch them at speed during mountain descents.

Ken

[il padrone]

Reminds me of Jaques Tati in Jour du Fete

[Mulger bill]

If it were my son on that video I'd be telling him off. Yes I think it increases the chance of injury, and I don't want him injured. However I do let him play footy and that brings with it a pretty good chance of injury, so I'm not wrapping him in cotton wool.
The media hype surrounding this, is a bit ott. Chances are it will only increase the incidence of this behavior. Plenty of youngsters don't give a feck what us oldies say, I know I didn't. A few might see it and say that looks like fun and if it pisses off conservative old buggers then that's even more reason.

Says it all really. Especially the bit about encouraging copycat behaviour.

[kenwstr]

Yep, from the ads as long as you comply with the speed limit you have achieved all the competencies required to be a safe driver. Of course you should drive at a safe appropriate speed, but there is a bit more required.

I tried to find out how many of the car accidents in NSW are caused by speeding, I discovered that conveniently, in nsw these stats are not recorded. instead, they attribute "speeding" to include both "exceeding the posted limit" and also "driving at a speed excessive for conditions". It essentially allows them to say that "speed" is a factor in pretty much every collision (as two stationary objects can't collide with other!)
Speed cameras can't detect someone "exceeding a safe speed for the conditions", and they are yet to invent a camera that detects stupidity.
I had to go out in the car yesterday to collect some supplies, and I was horrified by the standard of driving on display. Cars darting in and out of lanes without indicating, just to gain a one car advantage in the queue.

Speeding is not usually the only cause of accidents. According to traffic accident investigators the main cause is unexpected situations. Speed makes the accident less avoidable and more severe. That's why it's a factor. Predictability is the primary key to safety, including environmental factors as well as behavior like compliance to road rules.


Ken

[human909]

Reminds me of Jaques Tati in Jour du Fete

The kid has a future!

[queequeg]

Speeding is not usually the only cause of accidents. According to traffic accident investigators the main cause is unexpected situations. Speed makes the accident less avoidable and more severe. That's why it's a factor. Predictability is the primary key to safety, including environmental factors as well as behavior like compliance to road rules.


Ken

Yes, but since there are no stats available that show crashes caused by "speeding over the posted limit" vs "driving at a speed excessive for the conditions", how can we make sweeping statements like "every k over is a killer".
Speed is a factor in every accident. Even a car doing 5km/h can be "speeding for the conditions".
Since speed cameras can only detect speed over the posted limit, they reinforce the message that as long as you stay at the speed limit you are entirely safe.

[kenwstr]

Speeding is not usually the only cause of accidents. According to traffic accident investigators the main cause is unexpected situations. Speed makes the accident less avoidable and more severe. That's why it's a factor. Predictability is the primary key to safety, including environmental factors as well as behavior like compliance to road rules.


Ken

Yes, but since there are no stats available that show crashes caused by "speeding over the posted limit" vs "driving at a speed excessive for the conditions", how can we make sweeping statements like "every k over is a killer".
Speed is a factor in every accident. Even a car doing 5km/h can be "speeding for the conditions".
Since speed cameras can only detect speed over the posted limit, they reinforce the message that as long as you stay at the speed limit you are entirely safe.

Well some peoples job is investigating the causes of accidents. I'm just repeating a consensus of opinion some of them have made public. I guess it's up to you how much value you place on their collective experience, objectivity and honesty but it makes sense to me.


Ken

[warthog1]

Well some peoples job is investigating the causes of accidents. I'm just repeating a consensus of opinion some of them have made public. I guess it's up to you how much value you place on their collective experience, objectivity and honesty but it makes sense to me.


Ken

Our government in Vic has a vested interest in conveying the impression that speeding is the major cause of carnage on our roads. It legitimises the use of speed cameras to collect revenue.
Whilst I don't argue increased speed can increase the likelihood of an accident in the wrong conditions and does increase the risk and severity of injury, it is my opinion they are overstating its contribution as a major cause of collisions, for the aforementioned reason of legitimising their use of speed detection devices as a contributor to general revenue.
My experience in over 12 years as an on road paramedic has lead me to the conclusion that impatience, incompetence, poor judgement and failure to bloody look are far bigger contributors.

[kenwstr]

Reminds me of Jaques Tati in Jour du Fete

I have the mo but at least I'm not chasing the bike.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXhRPnh1JSU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


Ken

[queequeg]

Well some peoples job is investigating the causes of accidents. I'm just repeating a consensus of opinion some of them have made public. I guess it's up to you how much value you place on their collective experience, objectivity and honesty but it makes sense to me.


Ken

Our government in Vic has a vested interest in conveying the impression that speeding is the major cause of carnage on our roads. It legitimises the use of speed cameras to collect revenue.
Whilst I don't argue increased speed can increase the likelihood of an accident in the wrong conditions and does increase the risk of injury, it is my opinion they are overstating its contribution as a major cause of collisions, for the aforementioned reason of legitimising their use of speed detection devices as a contributor to general revenue.
My experience in over 12 years as an on road paramedic has lead me to the conclusion that impatience, incompetence, poor judgement and failure to bloody look are far bigger contributors.

+1

that is my point. I am not saying that no crashes are caused by speeding, but if these investigators are doing their jobs, why are there no stats for crashes caused by speeding over the posted limited vs excessive speed for conditions, but under the posted limit? For the simple reason that separating them would show that most accidents attributed to speeding are in fact not due to exceeding the posted limit, making the justification of cameras difficult.

Still, until they can invent a moron detector camera, it's the best they have.

[zero]

+1

that is my point. I am not saying that no crashes are caused by speeding, but if these investigators are doing their jobs, why are there no stats for crashes caused by speeding over the posted limited vs excessive speed for conditions, but under the posted limit? For the simple reason that separating them would show that most accidents attributed to speeding are in fact not due to exceeding the posted limit, making the justification of cameras difficult.

Still, until they can invent a moron detector camera, it's the best they have.

I thought the definition of a fixed, signposted speed camera was moron detector. I'm completely cool with taxation of people driving cars who won't watch what the hell is happening outside the windscreen. I am less disturbed by drivers who notice a particular road condition (ie the presence of a speed camera) and slow down from 20 over than I am people getting caught at 10 over, who never saw it.

I'd personally like extreme coverage of intersections with speed/red light camera combos.

[queequeg]

I thought the definition of a fixed, signposted speed camera was moron detector. I'm completely cool with taxation of people driving cars who won't watch what the hell is happening outside the windscreen. I am less disturbed by drivers who notice a particular road condition (ie the presence of a speed camera) and slow down from 20 over than I am people getting caught at 10 over, who never saw it.

I'd personally like extreme coverage of intersections with speed/red light camera combos.

Same, but I see lots of far more dangerous moron behaviour on my daily commute, none of which is picked up by red light or speed cameras.
I think that half the reason the standard of driving in Sydney is so bad is because they only enforce a few of the road rules that are easy to police.

[Mulger bill]

I thought the definition of a fixed, signposted speed camera was moron detector. I'm completely cool with taxation of people driving cars who won't watch what the hell is happening outside the windscreen. I am less disturbed by drivers who notice a particular road condition (ie the presence of a speed camera) and slow down from 20 over than I am people getting caught at 10 over, who never saw it.

I'd personally like extreme coverage of intersections with speed/red light camera combos.

The only signposted ones in Vic are those at signalised intersections. Govt won't go overt on the rest of the fixed or mobile cameras because "They slow people down at that point only."

Same, but I see lots of far more dangerous moron behaviour on my daily commute, none of which is picked up by red light or speed cameras.
I think that half the reason the standard of driving in Sydney is so bad is because they only enforce a few of the road rules that are easy to police.

Not just Sydney, things have been slipping across a range of behaviours for many years now. People know the odds of being pinged for pretty much anything is only slightly higher than being struck by ball lightning so meh is the new style for many.

[Ross]

Still, until they can invent a moron detector camera, it's the best they have.

Luckily for morons there is no camera to detect them. If there was, the revenue it would drag in would make the revenue from $peed cameras look like pocket money.

[Ross]

If the authorities were really serious about road safety they would instruct Police to set up RBTs nearby pubs/clubs every Thursday, Friday and Staurday nights. Doesn't have to be the same one, plenty to choose from, but I reckon conservatively 60% of patrons leaving the pubs and clubs would be over the limit.

Then, following on from our moron motorist theme, cops should patrol school zones at morning drop-off and afternoon pick-up times and book all the incompetent parents that break a dozen road rules every time they drop Mary or Jimmy off to school. At the very least speed cameras should be installed in every school zone.