The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Summernight » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:03 am

AKO: Wow... That van driver also needs a medal, the same as you, for missing that idiot salmon cyclist.
User avatar
Summernight
 
Posts: 1802
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:40 pm
Location: Melbourne

by BNA » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:34 am

BNA
 

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby AKO » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:34 am

InTheWoods wrote:
AKO wrote:Yep, had about a nano second to react. My speed of 60ks combined with an estimated 40ks for him (long gradual down hill run combined with a STRONG tailwind). And then to be abused like it was my fault. :o


Was there a bend or anything that he could have misjudged at speed and ended up crossing the centre line? Crazy!!
not at all. T intersection 2 kilometres up the road. Apart from that just a straight hilly stretch of road. This morning dropping the kids off to school I realised what may have happened. As mentioned the road was quite narrow but widens considerably about 50 metres past yesterday's incident. A salmon cyclist would have ample room to practice his craft until the road narrows, pushing him into the oncoming traffic. Having said that, he had a clear line of sight for maybe 200 metres or more till the road narrowed for him.
Malvern Star Oppy C5 (2012)
Malvern Star XCS 5.0 MTB (2012)
Giant TCR Advanced 1 (2014)
User avatar
AKO
 
Posts: 290
Joined: Wed Sep 19, 2012 7:16 pm

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby hannos » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:40 am

Crazy pedestrian yesterday...
Driving home along Roberts Rd at Greenacre, southbound. 3 lanes of heavy traffic. There's a pedestrian walking along IN the gutter when there's ample room to walk off the road. Just hoping he got off the road before a semi came along...
2010 BMC SLC01
Image
User avatar
hannos
 
Posts: 4037
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:18 am
Location: Sydney

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby redned » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:14 pm

trailgumby wrote:That is actually illegal. If someone is overtaking on a single lane each way dual carriageway and they need to jump back onto the correct side of the road, you're not allowed to shut 'em out. If it's you doing the overtake, you're not allowed to cause a collision by just barging in but they do need to make room for you.


Without arguing against the wisdom of avoiding an accident, you are wrong, at least in WA.

124. Keeping a safe distance when overtaking
A driver overtaking a vehicle —
(a) shall pass the vehicle at a sufficient distance to avoid a collision with that vehicle or to avoid obstructing the path of that vehicle; and
(b) shall not return to the marked lane or line of traffic where the vehicle is travelling until the driver is a sufficient distance past that vehicle to avoid a collision with that vehicle or to avoid obstructing the path of that vehicle.
redned
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:45 pm

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby hannos » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:21 pm

redned wrote:
trailgumby wrote:That is actually illegal. If someone is overtaking on a single lane each way dual carriageway and they need to jump back onto the correct side of the road, you're not allowed to shut 'em out. If it's you doing the overtake, you're not allowed to cause a collision by just barging in but they do need to make room for you.


Without arguing against the wisdom of avoiding an accident, you are wrong, at least in WA.

124. Keeping a safe distance when overtaking
A driver overtaking a vehicle —
(a) shall pass the vehicle at a sufficient distance to avoid a collision with that vehicle or to avoid obstructing the path of that vehicle; and
(b) shall not return to the marked lane or line of traffic where the vehicle is travelling until the driver is a sufficient distance past that vehicle to avoid a collision with that vehicle or to avoid obstructing the path of that vehicle.



In NSW you are not allowed to accelerate if you're being overtaken:

145 Driver being overtaken not to increase speed

If a driver is overtaking another driver on a two-way road by crossing a dividing line, or crossing to the right of the centre of the road, the other driver must not increase the speed at which the driver is driving until the first driver:

(a) has passed the other driver, and

(b) has returned to the marked lane or line of traffic where the other driver is driving, and

(c) is a sufficient distance in front of the other driver to avoid a collision.



Also, if you are doing the overtaking:

144 Keeping a safe distance when overtaking

A driver overtaking a vehicle:

(a) must pass the vehicle at a sufficient distance to avoid a collision with the vehicle or obstructing the path of the vehicle, and

(b) must not return to the marked lane or line of traffic where the vehicle is travelling until the driver is a sufficient distance past the vehicle to avoid a collision with the vehicle or obstructing the path of the vehicle.

Maximum penalty: 20 penalty units.

Edit: on reading the posts involved, I don't believe those being overtaken have any duty to 'let you in' as such. It's the overtaker's responsibility to ensure they do it safely and legally (and have enough room to make the move). If you can't make the overtaking move then you must drop back otherwise you'd be obstructing the path of the vehicle being overtaken if you try to barge in.
Last edited by hannos on Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2010 BMC SLC01
Image
User avatar
hannos
 
Posts: 4037
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:18 am
Location: Sydney

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby il padrone » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:26 pm

Yes, TG may be quoting some very good advice that a driving instructor or other such expert in the field has quoted. All often very good advice just not actually a road rule.

Along with things like not overtaking on approach to an intersection, not overtaking on a bridge, not riding two-abreast on double-lines, these are all things that are good guidelines but not actual road rules. All rules that I have at some time believed were the road rule by the way.
Last edited by il padrone on Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 19612
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jules21 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:35 pm

there are overarching obligations on drivers to take due care. deliberately failing to allow an overtaking vehicle back onto the left side of the road, knowing that your actions are increasing the risk of a (head-on) collision is undoubtedly a serious breach of road safety laws (often not in the road rules, i.e. in the form of careless, dangerous, culpable driving, etc.)

the problem with these laws is that they are not strict liability and are more difficult for the prosecution to prove, putting them in the too-hard basket.
Image
User avatar
jules21
 
Posts: 9000
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 pm
Location: deep in the pain cave

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby wellington_street » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:42 pm

il padrone wrote:not overtaking on a bridge


This reminds me of something...

...and the award for complete incompetence goes to the Shire of Serpentine-Jarrahdale in southern Perth for this beauty. Sign saying you can't overtake, line markings specifically saying you can. :roll:

To add to the hilarity they have also installed "Single Lane Slow Point" warning signs on both approaches to this bridge since the GSV images were taken. The scene is otherwise unmodified.

If roads authorities can't even get basic stuff like this right, how are drivers meant to? :shock:
wellington_street
 
Posts: 1094
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:25 pm

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby hannos » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:43 pm

This is true Jules but... (/don devil's advocate hat)
Overtaking car starts to brake to drop back. Car being passed starts to brake to let overtaker in.
End result, both cars are still side-by-side and the on-coming vehicle is getting closer...
2010 BMC SLC01
Image
User avatar
hannos
 
Posts: 4037
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2010 10:18 am
Location: Sydney

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jules21 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:48 pm

hannos wrote:This is true Jules but... (/don devil's advocate hat)
Overtaking car starts to brake to drop back. Car being passed starts to brake to let overtaker in.
End result, both cars are still side-by-side and the on-coming vehicle is getting closer...

yeah, this is the problem - drivers are often just as likely to be dangerous when they're trying to be safe. recognition of this is why you can get away with just about anything when behind the wheel - just plead incompetence.
Image
User avatar
jules21
 
Posts: 9000
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 pm
Location: deep in the pain cave

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby il padrone » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:54 pm

wellington_street wrote:...and the award for complete incompetence goes to the Shire of Serpentine-Jarrahdale in southern Perth for this beauty. Sign saying you can't overtake, line markings specifically saying you can. :roll:

To add to the hilarity they have also installed "Single Lane Slow Point" warning signs on both approaches to this bridge since the GSV images were taken. The scene is otherwise unmodified.

If roads authorities can't even get basic stuff like this right, how are drivers meant to? :shock:

I always think of bridges like this one in this regard

Image

A bad-un, but used to be pretty typical of country back-road bridges. Lots are no longer there (and this pic dates from C1982). The thing is, the fact there are no double-lines doesn't preclude drivers from using some common-sense and staying behind. I know..... "ain't so common" :|, but we expect a certain level of judgement and responsibility at all times from drivers.
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 19612
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jules21 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 12:58 pm

wellington_street wrote:...and the award for complete incompetence goes to the Shire of Serpentine-Jarrahdale in southern Perth for this beauty. Sign saying you can't overtake, line markings specifically saying you can. :roll:

no. you must comply with all road rules. the broken line markings do not prohibit overtaking, but the sign does. the markings do not and never will give you explicit permission to overtake.

ideally they'd repaint them as double lines to make things clearer, but there is no contradiction there in law.
Image
User avatar
jules21
 
Posts: 9000
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 pm
Location: deep in the pain cave

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby wellington_street » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:29 pm

^ Broken lines under the road rules permit overtaking when safe, the sign prohibits it, therefore they are contradictory. Contradictory signs and markings are not enforceable and any challenge in court would see the driver exonerated.

There's no "ideally" about it, the Clowncil and Main Roads have failed in their requirements.
wellington_street
 
Posts: 1094
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:25 pm

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jules21 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:44 pm

wellington_street wrote:Contradictory signs and markings are not enforceable and any challenge in court would see the driver exonerated.

interpretation of contradictory is more complex than you may think. a speed limit of 100 km/h does not mean you can slide off a bend at that speed, when in practice you needed to slow down to maintain grip between tyre and road. you will be fined if you try that. i doubt you'd have much success arguing the speed limit and any fine for excessive speed, despite being under the speed limit, was contradictory.
Image
User avatar
jules21
 
Posts: 9000
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 pm
Location: deep in the pain cave

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby wellington_street » Thu Mar 14, 2013 1:50 pm

jules21 wrote:
wellington_street wrote:Contradictory signs and markings are not enforceable and any challenge in court would see the driver exonerated.

interpretation of contradictory is more complex than you may think. a speed limit of 100 km/h does not mean you can slide off a bend at that speed, when in practice you needed to slow down to maintain grip between tyre and road. you will be fined if you try that. i doubt you'd have much success arguing the speed limit and any fine for excessive speed, despite being under the speed limit, was contradictory.


That's a very different circumstance as it involves a crash.

An appropriate speed limit example would be if you are driving along and there's speed limit signs on both sides of the carriageway - the one on the left says 80 and the one on the right says 100. You couldn't be booked for exceeding 80km/h (but below 100km/h) as the signs are contradictory.
wellington_street
 
Posts: 1094
Joined: Wed Mar 02, 2011 12:25 pm

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jules21 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:02 pm

wellington_street wrote:An appropriate speed limit example would be if you are driving along and there's speed limit signs on both sides of the carriageway - the one on the left says 80 and the one on the right says 100. You couldn't be booked for exceeding 80km/h (but below 100km/h) as the signs are contradictory.

i think this example is more clear cut than your original one. you may be right, it's outside my area of expertise really, but i suspect it's a bit subjective (i.e. subject to judicial interpretation).
Image
User avatar
jules21
 
Posts: 9000
Joined: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:14 pm
Location: deep in the pain cave

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Summernight » Thu Mar 14, 2013 2:15 pm

jules21 wrote:
hannos wrote:This is true Jules but... (/don devil's advocate hat)
Overtaking car starts to brake to drop back. Car being passed starts to brake to let overtaker in.
End result, both cars are still side-by-side and the on-coming vehicle is getting closer...

yeah, this is the problem - drivers are often just as likely to be dangerous when they're trying to be safe. recognition of this is why you can get away with just about anything when behind the wheel - just plead incompetence.


This is what annoys me when some 'safe' backseat drivers say I should turn off my cruise control and slow down to let an overtaker on a 4-6 lane highway, with the motorcycle slicer wire cables in the middle between traffic directions, change back into the left/middle lane just because there is a road-rager tailgating the overtaker in the right-hand lane (who is usually already speeding anyway as my cruise is set on or just under the real (not odo) 100kph) . It makes me unpredictable if I change my speed so why should I?
User avatar
Summernight
 
Posts: 1802
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:40 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Undertow » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:42 pm

Summernight wrote:This is what annoys me when some 'safe' backseat drivers say I should turn off my cruise control and slow down to let an overtaker on a 4-6 lane highway, with the motorcycle slicer wire cables in the middle between traffic directions, change back into the left/middle lane just because there is a road-rager tailgating the overtaker in the right-hand lane (who is usually already speeding anyway as my cruise is set on or just under the real (not odo) 100kph) . It makes me unpredictable if I change my speed so why should I?


Why are you in the right hand lane if you aren't overtaking?

When driving on a highway there should never be an empty space to your left, if there is you should merge into it, otherwise you are breaking the law (at least in queensland). On roads with speed limits of 90+ you MUST keep left unless overtaking.
Image
Undertow
 
Posts: 270
Joined: Sat May 29, 2010 12:25 pm

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Summernight » Thu Mar 14, 2013 4:45 pm

I'm in left lane - overtaker is in right lane. Road rager is in right lane behind overtaker (who is not me). Similar keep left rule also applies in VIC for speeds above 80kph.
User avatar
Summernight
 
Posts: 1802
Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 2:40 pm
Location: Melbourne

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby redned » Thu Mar 14, 2013 5:14 pm

jules21 wrote:there are overarching obligations on drivers to take due care. deliberately failing to allow an overtaking vehicle back onto the left side of the road, knowing that your actions are increasing the risk of a (head-on) collision is undoubtedly a serious breach of road safety laws (often not in the road rules, i.e. in the form of careless, dangerous, culpable driving, etc.)


The responsibility to pass safely is the passers, not the passee. There is no such thing as "deliberately failing to allow an overtaking vehicle back onto the left side of the road". If it is not safe to pass, careless, dangerous, or culpable driving is in the hands of the passer.

Having said that, if I can I am going to avoid being run off the road by some idiot passing dangerously, possibly risking being rear-ended or being shunted off the road into a tree. Culpability for the dangerous situation is, however, entirely the passers. Having just had a long weekend in WA and been in the Margaret River handicap, these situations are all too common.
redned
 
Posts: 394
Joined: Thu Feb 12, 2009 4:45 pm

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:41 pm

Getting back to dumb pedestrians and cyclists... I had a huge guy walking very boldly and deliberately right down the centre of the shared path, no way to go past him. He didn't care - it was very deliberate to force me (or any other bike rider) to completely stop, get off their bike and walk past.

And not too further on, Mr Pedestrian walking his dog, and the dog wasn't on a leash (in an area where that is not allowed). The dog ran straight across the front of me. :shock: Thank heavens I was only doing 15km/h. I was very tempted there and then to go straight back home. :roll: But I did end up going down to Western Sydney Regional park and back.
g-boaf
 
Posts: 4576
Joined: Mon Sep 26, 2011 6:11 pm

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby uppo75 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:44 pm

Undertow wrote:
Summernight wrote:This is what annoys me when some 'safe' backseat drivers say I should turn off my cruise control and slow down to let an overtaker on a 4-6 lane highway, with the motorcycle slicer wire cables in the middle between traffic directions, change back into the left/middle lane just because there is a road-rager tailgating the overtaker in the right-hand lane (who is usually already speeding anyway as my cruise is set on or just under the real (not odo) 100kph) . It makes me unpredictable if I change my speed so why should I?


Why are you in the right hand lane if you aren't overtaking?

When driving on a highway there should never be an empty space to your left, if there is you should merge into it, otherwise you are breaking the law (at least in queensland). On roads with speed limits of 90+ you MUST keep left unless overtaking.



Actually, in QLD, you only have to keep out of the right lane.

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Safety/Queens ... -left.aspx

On single-lane roads, drivers must stay as close as practical to the left side of the road.

When the speed limit is 90km/h or more on multi-lane roads, you must not drive in the right-hand lane unless you are:

overtaking
turning right
making a U-turn
avoiding an obstacle
driving in congested traffic.

It is an offence to drive in the right lane if none of the above criteria are occurring.


So all those slow people ,in the third lane from the left, on the 4 lane Freeway, are quite legal in doing so.
uppo75
 
Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2012 8:08 pm

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby TigerFilly » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:55 pm

I nearly wiped out a teenager who was cycling to school this morning. He was cycling on the footpath - very busy South Road near the city where I certainly wouldn't cycle on the road, however there is an excellent bike track just a block away so he didn't need to be on the footpath, and was definitely older than 12. Anyway, he was treating all the side roads as though he had right of way crossing from one footpath to the next. I came down a side road and was aiming to stop at the line before turning left to joint the main road, and he barrelled across in front of me with just a few centimetres to spare. I didn't even see him until he was right in front of me, which I am blaming on the horrible blind spot in the Holden Cruze I drive for work. They are dreadful cars for side vision. I then watched him riding the same direction as me up South Road (about the same speed too as the traffic was so slow) and he's lucky he didn't get knocked over several more times.
TigerFilly
 
Posts: 98
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2013 9:47 pm
Location: Adelaide

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby InTheWoods » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:00 pm

uppo75 wrote:Actually, in QLD, you only have to keep out of the right lane.

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/Safety/Queens ... -left.aspx

On single-lane roads, drivers must stay as close as practical to the left side of the road.

When the speed limit is 90km/h or more on multi-lane roads, you must not drive in the right-hand lane unless you are:

overtaking
turning right
making a U-turn
avoiding an obstacle
driving in congested traffic.

It is an offence to drive in the right lane if none of the above criteria are occurring.


So all those slow people ,in the third lane from the left, on the 4 lane Freeway, are quite legal in doing so.



I was about to tell you you were wrong and what TMR has on the website means diddly squat and refer you to the actual road rules. But they say the same thing :P So thanks for that, I learnt something new today :)
Image
User avatar
InTheWoods
 
Posts: 1527
Joined: Sun Jul 31, 2011 2:34 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby AndrewBurns » Fri Mar 15, 2013 5:26 am

Rode to and from Iron cove bay for a run on Wednesday and experienced dumb pedestrians, cyclists AND motorists, the trifecta!

Before I started running my friends and I were standing on the shared path while they adjusted their music playing devices, I was keeping well to the left (there was probably 10cm of pavement on my side before the dirt) but still three teenagers on crappy looking MTB's decided they should try to pass me on the left despite the lack of space and that they shouldn't have to slow down or ring their bell/call out before they did so. I was crouched down doing up a shoelace at the time and I stood up just as they were passing, forcing two of them to run off the path onto the dirt as the ~10cm of pavement to my left had just become occupied. They proceeded to yell back at me as if it were my fault that they tried to pass me on the wrong side of the path where there was no room at speed without indicating their intentions first :?: Had half a mind to run them down because they weren't going all that fast but indifference prevailed.

On my ride home from my run I encountered a group of ~10 pedestrians walking 4 wide and a few deep across the shared path, which by itself is completely normal on this path at this time. I slowed down and called out that I was passing several times to no response. Not until I was riding at walking pace and weaving my way between them did they realise that there was somebody else trying to use the path as well. They weren't wearing headphones or anything, just far to engrossed in their own conversation.

On the same ride home I almost got SMIDSYed by a woman through a roundabout but that's for a different thread.
Image
AndrewBurns
 
Posts: 996
Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2011 1:36 pm

PreviousNext

Return to General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot]



Popular Bike Shops
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Ebay Ebay AU
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers