The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby il padrone » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:38 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:20m out is under 2 seconds away. Not enough time! :lol: :lol: :lol:

All I can say is, I never have any problems with this strategy.... at that distance. :|

And in my opinion your suggested 35-40kmh on an urban shared trail approaching pedestrians, is way over the odds :roll: . Grow up and show some respect for other trail-users.
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by BNA » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:45 pm

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby russellgarrard » Sat Apr 06, 2013 1:45 pm

I admittedly ride on the footpath, you should see them jump a mile when I come SCREAMING past them without ringing my bell or letting them know I am there!

I mean... I am riding at pedestrian pace+1-2km's an hour! How dare I ride past them extremely slowly! The way pedestrians look at me is the same way you'd expect them to look at someone doing 30km/ph+!

I just can't justify riding on the road if I'm doing 6-7km/ph!
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby citywomble » Sat Apr 06, 2013 2:54 pm

Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...
by Lukeyboy » Sat Apr 06, 2013 12:53 pm

20m out is under 2 seconds away. Not enough time!


Lukeyboy.

Under two seconds is more than 36kph - that is just reckless when approaching pedestrians.

The simple facts, that even state governments don't grasp, is that the guidelines and standards that apply to shared paths are all based on the presumption that bike speeds don't exceed 20kph.

If cyclists wish to go fast on paths then start insisting they are bike paths without pedestrians. Hit a pedestrian on a bike path it's their fault. Hit one on a shared path it's your fault.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Lukeyboy » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:09 pm

Good to see that sarcasm hasn't registered with anyone in this thread once again.

And FYI, on our shared pathways you can easily do 40-60kph past peds because the pathway in certain areas is wide enough, straight enough, great visabilty to allow it or its segrated between peds and other cyclists. The Brisbane City Council has really pumped in the cycling infrastructure for us to utilise :)
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A few KM from the city centre in heavy urban areas. 2 cycle lanes and a ped pathway (maintain the pace and you can watch the city cat depart Toowong and beat it to the next stop in the city).
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When the whole northern bikeway floods and debris is washed up you can still average over 35kph because its that wide that its difficult for debris to fully block the pathway.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby herzog » Sat Apr 06, 2013 3:21 pm

Rhubarb wrote:Here's a self nomination. No excuses, just poor decision making.



That honestly doesn't look too bad. There even appears to be a bike lane on the left, leading to a green bike box at the lights.

On the other hand, your video does highlight my main concern about lowrider bikes. Being alongside a bloody Range Rover of all cars really shows how invisible you can be. Whereas at the end of the video you see a lady on a regular bike who is at eye level with the driver of the 4WD in question.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Percrime » Sat Apr 06, 2013 4:07 pm

Todays prat, Mr orange jersey .. on a road bike on Koornang Crk. I slow for some kiddies with training wheels... he comes up .. sits on my wheel... looking for a chance to pass. Sticks on my wheel entirely unable to pass when I accelerate. I indicate to turn right... and slow and our mate over takes on the right. He cops a right earful. I wouldn't wear that jersey for a few months mate.. I see you.. I WILL have words. You make the dumbest cyclist so far this year. THe 5 kids racing on the path earlier without helmets dont make it into the top 500.

THe two guys carefully walking on the right were not the best spanners in the box either.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Rhubarb » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:34 am

herzog wrote:
Rhubarb wrote:Here's a self nomination. No excuses, just poor decision making.



That honestly doesn't look too bad. There even appears to be a bike lane on the left, leading to a green bike box at the lights.

On the other hand, your video does highlight my main concern about lowrider bikes. Being alongside a bloody Range Rover of all cars really shows how invisible you can be. Whereas at the end of the video you see a lady on a regular bike who is at eye level with the driver of the 4WD in question.


That is the silly action I was referring to, ie putting myself in a position I knew was dangerous for my velomobile. On my DF bike I would use the bike lane there - it is a formally designated bike lane. I don't in the velomobile as I'm too low to be seen in those circumstances. I got a brief fright when I thought that range rover was going to left hook me, so I pulled back just in case. I am very conscious of 4wds in traffic. They can't see me when I'm close behind or on the left of them.

Here's a past example of where I deliberately positioned myself to avoid any issues:


PS - After reporting that guy 6 times for parking there, he finally got fined and hasn't parked there since. :-)
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby il padrone » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:41 am

Surely a letter to the council's parking office with some of your film footage on a DVD would spur them into some action on that recalcitrant illegal parker. Maybe they could even send a parking officer out there to see for themselves??
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Rhubarb » Sun Apr 07, 2013 7:56 am

il padrone wrote:Surely a letter to the council's parking office with some of your film footage on a DVD would spur them into some action on that recalcitrant illegal parker. Maybe they could even send a parking officer out there to see for themselves??


Brisbane City Council don't accept photographic or video evidence re illegal parking. Apparently only a parking officer's eyes are sufficient evidence. It's a bit of a personal bug bear with me actually. I don't bother reporting minor infringements but this guy was a repeat offender and only video shows that, but they weren't interested. I followed their process though and eventually got a result after reporting him 6 times. Since he got fined though, he hasn't parked there since, so that's great.

A little frustrating that you have to report them all the time though. If a parking officer just rode down Sylvan Road every afternoon at peak times, they would make a mint. It would probably only need a 2 week blitz to solve the problem for good. It would take me an hour just to ride down Sylvan Road if I stopped to report each offender every day, so I only report the really bad ones and repeat offenders.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby il padrone » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:06 am

Crikey! I don't know Brisbane so not sure what part of the city this is, but try that on anywhere in the inner Melbourne suburbs, on main road clearways, or in any restaurant/shopping districts in Melbourne and you'd really soon get stung!
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Rhubarb » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:47 am

il padrone wrote:Crikey! I don't know Brisbane so not sure what part of the city this is, but try that on anywhere in the inner Melbourne suburbs, on main road clearways, or in any restaurant/shopping districts in Melbourne and you'd really soon get stung!


Brisbane is a funny city for cycling. We have many segments of brilliant infrastructure, interconnected by abysmal infrastructure. The western suburbs of Brisbane are best served for cycle commuters with the Centenary bikepath connecting the inner Western suburb of Toowong to the outer south western suburbs (30kms or so). Toowong is connected to Brisbane CBD via the Bicentennial bikepath which goes along the river. A magnificent piece of cycling infrastructure (see pictures a few posts up, by Lukeyboy). Sylvan Road is the piece of rubbish that interconnects these 2 wonderful facilities, and in my opinion, prevents more people from cycling to and from the western suburbs.

Now I should be very clear. Sylvan Road is NOT the worst piece of cycling infrastructure on the planet. The issue for me is that it is a recent "upgrade" (finished 2011 I think) that was touted as being wonderful, but delivered nothing more than road resurfacing and 4 bits of green paint. Given it connects 2 other wonderful pieces of infrastructure, it was the perfect place to get it right (dutch style separated paths) and yet they got it so wrong (narrow car door zones, left hook scenarios etc).

Commuter numbers are healthy and growing. This recent video shows 17 of us going through 1 set of lights - more bikes than cars.


Here's another self nomination for silly cyclist:


This video probably sums up my frustrations of Sylvan Road though. This stuff is just there everyday and they make you report every incident. Then when you ring back a few days later to find out what happened, they say they sent someone out the NEXT DAY and the car was gone. Surprise surprise. But your video doesn't count - GRRRR !!


As I said, its not the worst road in the world for bikes, they just really missed the opportunity to make it the best, and to connect 2 other wonderful pieces of cycle infrastructure.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sun Apr 07, 2013 10:13 am

A guernsey for bad judgement yesterday on the Kwinana Freeway PSP at South Perth.

I was riding the giraffe - this is one of those tall unicycles were the rider is elevated considerably, in this case the seat being 6 feet above the ground.

A group of three went past, the first a bike being a length in front of two following side by side. They rode past me at a moderate/quick pace moving to the right of the path which was devoid of close oncoming cyclists or pedestrians.

The paired rider that was nearest me shaved so close that I felt the hairs on my leg being brushed by his turbulence. His shoulder would have been somewhere between nothing and 6 inches. I was riding well to the left at that instant and there was more than ample room for them to move across another meter or more to the right.

Now ANY rider will, many times during a ride, have cause to deviate from his line by that amount. I get this sort of passing regularly. But when passing a rider whose foot is around the level of your head surely you must harbour a little doubt on the absolute straight line of that rider. :roll: And on a path with patched potholes, tree roots pushing up the path and lots of branches up projecting across the path. Perhaps I should be flattered that you had no such doubt.

I would guess that the positioning problem was the other rider as the gap between was not great enough for the left-rider to head much futher right. The rider close to me was culpable for trusting his dumb buddy in the first place and staying at his side.

Yeah, dumb guys, both of you. I hope you are a little more attentive when you are riding on roads.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Myrtone » Sun Apr 07, 2013 8:25 pm

human909 wrote:
Aushiker wrote:I am commenting in respect to the WA Road Code, but in this context your statement appears to be not correct

Of course context is relevent but we don't need to get too pedantic now do we. :roll: Besides should a collision at a controlled intersection occur the WA code means the same thing. For a collision to occur the driver necessarily did not give way to a pedestrian crossing the intersection.

Either way there is no way around the fact that vehicles turning at intersections need to give way to pedestrians.


But is there a way around the requirement for turning vehicles to wait for pedestrains crossing in front of them, giving way mean don't get in the way. If no pedestrian has to take any evasive action to avoid the motorist (which should necessarily be the case on a red ped signal), then they motorist must neccesarliy obey this priority rule. If such a collision should occur on a red ped signal the pedestrian must necessarily have ignored the light.

Livetoride wrote:I understand what you said, but its weird, you break the law by crossing on a red signal, but if you do cross, motorists have to give way (understanding that its there to protect the safety of the ped) shouldn't it be a case of, you the motorist has right of way....not the law breaking ped who decided in all their wisdom to break the law and cross on a red signal and in doing so the motorist has to give way to them... Think this law needs to be changed...


So you might ingore the pedestrian light and expect the motorist not to get in your way, that's filthy rich! If a motorist had to stop or slow down to avido you, maybe you should pay a heavier fine that one otherwise would for crossing on a red man.

human909 wrote:No this law absolutely should not be changed and cannot be rationally changed in the way you imply. Vehicles need to base their decision on the signals that are directed towards THEM not on signals that are not directed towards them.


I don't quite get it, if pedestrians do not need to take any evasive action to avoid the turing vehicle and have their own ped signal, why can vehciles not rationally base their deicisons on the pedestrian light, does basing it only on the main traffic light provide certainly for unfamiliar road users and visually impaired drivers?

Allowing the pedestrians to cross on a red ped signal provided the main traffic light is green, or dispensing with the pedestrian light altogether would also remove the need to give way to pedestrians whenever they are breaking the law by crossing, while allowing humans to act in their natural behaviour.

Biffidus wrote:I'd still honk them. The pedestrian lights go red earlier to allow some cars through in that cycle of lights and red-manning a busy intersection is rude to all the cars that are waiting to turn.

Fair enough I suppose. :D The example I was talking about was with little traffic and a car turning left into a quiet suburban street. There is no way any sane pedestrian would wait an entire (long) light cycle in order to cross this tiny suburban street.

This would hardly be an issue if our pedestrian lights went automatically with the light cycle.[/quote]

Here's a thought: Currently, each light controlled crosswalk has a button on each side to insert a green phase, what if this button did the opposite, preventing, in the presence of a pedestrian, the pedestrian light automatically turning green with the traffic light.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby London Boy » Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:07 pm

Livetoride wrote:I understand what you said, but its weird, you break the law by crossing on a red signal, but if you do cross, motorists have to give way (understanding that its there to protect the safety of the ped) shouldn't it be a case of, you the motorist has right of way....not the law breaking ped who decided in all their wisdom to break the law and cross on a red signal and in doing so the motorist has to give way to them... Think this law needs to be changed...


If a pedestrian is on the road, a driver has to give way to that pedestrian. That is regardless of whether the pedestrian should have been there or not. If the ped is there, the motorist must give way.

If the motorist does not give way then that motorist becomes liable to both criminal and civil proceedings. However, if the pedestrian is on the road unlawfully (or stupidly, take your pick) then the issue of contributory negligence arises. Bad news for the ped, good news for the motorist's insurer.

Whatever you think of that law, it is highly unlikely to be changed. As things stand, you are balancing a life against a moment's inconvenience. That really is the calculation. A pedestrian hit by a motor vehicle is more likely than not to suffer serious injury, with a distinct possibility of being killed. That would be a hell of a penalty to pay for what amounts in the worst cases to a summary offence (and most of the time is simple inattention). A motorist who has to stop, or even just to slow down, briefly, is suffering at most a negligible inconvenience.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Myrtone » Mon Apr 08, 2013 12:36 am

London Boy wrote:If a pedestrian is on the road, a driver has to give way to that pedestrian. That is regardless of whether the pedestrian should have been there or not. If the ped is there, the motorist must give way.

If the motorist does not give way then that motorist becomes liable to both criminal and civil proceedings. However, if the pedestrian is on the road unlawfully (or stupidly, take your pick) then the issue of contributory negligence arises. Bad news for the ped, good news for the motorist's insurer.


Can motorists be held liable if they simply honk at pedestrians, which many laypersons (especially women) consider "rude?" I think unlawful is better, and I wonder whether "The Michevious Cyclists and Pedestrians thread..." would be a better title, Mr. Twizzle, who started this thread may be one of those (hyper logical) techincally minded men, who, when walking, cycling or diving, makes decisions using his own logic and cannot understand why other roads users don't make the same set of decisions as he does. Try asking traffic engineers and low vision specialists and see if they understand. I do wonder whether Livetoride understands why, in paricular, laypersons do the things they do and the reasons why they choose to do things. Even many aspergian women, regardless of their special interrests, are exceptionally empathetic and (should they seran to act neutrotypical) do understand that, in particular, laypersons (both with but especially without ASD) tend to have quite counterintuatively different kinds of thoughts from people like Livetorde.

London Boy wrote:Whatever you think of that law, it is highly unlikely to be changed. As things stand, you are balancing a life against a moment's inconvenience. That really is the calculation. A pedestrian hit by a motor vehicle is more likely than not to suffer serious injury, with a distinct possibility of being killed. That would be a hell of a penalty to pay for what amounts in the worst cases to a summary offence (and most of the time is simple inattention).


But the life you are balancing against a motorists inconvenience is the life of someone breaking the law by crossing, so it might seem logical to hold them responsible for getting themself hurt.

London Boy wrote:A motorist who has to stop, or even just to slow down, briefly, is suffering at most a negligible inconvenience.


But they are suffering inconveniece due to another persons ingorance of the lights. Clearly the ped light rules are correct for safety reasons and need enforcing, especially in New South Wales, where left turn on red is permitted at a number or intersections, and there needs to be more pedestrian grade separation in our CBDs. And where railways cross roads on different levels, there should be be pathways that cross roads on the same level as the railway. Zebra crossings should be withdawn from roundabouts by at least one vehicle length, and may be best placed midblock.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby il padrone » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:46 am

Myrtone wrote:But the life you are balancing against a motorists inconvenience is the life of someone breaking the law by crossing, so it might seem logical to hold them responsible for getting themself hurt.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others :? :roll:
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby high_tea » Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:58 am

il padrone wrote:
Myrtone wrote:But the life you are balancing against a motorists inconvenience is the life of someone breaking the law by crossing, so it might seem logical to hold them responsible for getting themself hurt.

All animals are equal, but some are more equal than others :? :roll:

True. Besides which, they are held responsible. I think the original argument is a strawman.

I contend that part of the problem with pedestrians and light-controlled intersections is that the timings are so hostile to pedestrians. They are often made to wait longer than any other road users, yet their time is no less valuable.

EDIT: I timed some lights just now. 45s green light, 35s green arrow 10s green walk sign. That's a good example of what I'm complaining about.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Undertow » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:07 am

Comedian wrote:Well I'm going to go out on a limb here.

In inner city areas of Brisbane we have a lot of Asians. I've noted that if you ring your bell they will often jump right... Not left.


If there is enough room for them to "jump" right, surely you didn't need to ring your bell in the first place?
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby bychosis » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:10 am

Dog walker this morning, walking beside another pedstrian coming towards me. Dog walker on incorrect side of share path, dog on too long lead off the incorrect side of the path. Ring the bell as I get closer. Not really dumb, but if he had taken a step off the path he would have joined his dog out of the way, rather than step left and then have to reel the dog in and drag it across my line.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jasonc » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:24 am

outbound on the vic park shared path (right near the bridge over the busway), there was a tradie walking in the middle of the walkway (there's a line down the middle at this point). I yell "on your right" and he moves all the way to the right :shock:
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby rdp_au » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:30 am

jasonc wrote:outbound on the vic park shared path (right near the bridge over the busway), there was a tradie walking in the middle of the walkway (there's a line down the middle at this point). I yell "on your right" and he moves all the way to the right :shock:


This is why I think it's a not a very useful thing to call out, especially to non cyclists. He either didn't hear the whole thing, or thought it meant that he should move right. If you need to alert him (and there are pages of discussion on the pros and cons of doing so......), a simple ding of a bell is much clearer.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Myrtone » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:30 am

Do you not seriously consider peds responsible for their own lives? If you aren't supposed to be there but are anyway, you (may) suffer the (de facto) consequences, one which is not de facto is being fined, but being hit by a vehicle is in that case a de facto consequence. If we overlook and hit pedestrians who aren't supposed to be there, maybe people would care more about obeying the pedestrian light.

Undertow wrote:
Comedian wrote:Well I'm going to go out on a limb here.

In inner city areas of Brisbane we have a lot of Asians. I've noted that if you ring your bell they will often jump right... Not left.


If there is enough room for them to "jump" right, surely you didn't need to ring your bell in the first place?


From which Asian countries did most of them migrate, from right side driving countries, like China, Taiwan and Laos, or Left side driving countries, like Thailand and Japan.

bychosis wrote:Dog walker this morning, walking beside another pedstrian coming towards me. Dog walker on incorrect side of share path, dog on too long lead off the incorrect side of the path. Ring the bell as I get closer. Not really dumb, but if he had taken a step off the path he would have joined his dog out of the way, rather than step left and then have to reel the dog in and drag it across my line.


Of course it's not really "dumb," that's why I suggested a better title for this thread. Are are bicyles still requried to give way to pedestrians on the "wrong" side of the path.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Wakatuki » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:37 am

Walking along Kings Beach yesterday, heard a bell ding, ding. Looked around, a cyclist was joining the path ahead of me. Then another ding, ding, looked around again, nothing behind me, the same cyclist ahead weaving at a sensible pace past pedestrians.

Now as a cyclist, I was attentive, but I could not pinpoint where he was or where he was heading. Perhaps the problem is not using the bell but the bell itself. It's not directional. Has anyone else experienced this?

Back to the old?
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jasonc » Mon Apr 08, 2013 10:43 am

I don't have a bell, on the commuter, I have an AZ. As this guy didn't have skull wires, my voice was sufficient
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby outnabike » Mon Apr 08, 2013 11:02 am

Myrtone wrote:
From which Asian countries did most of them migrate, from right side driving countries, like China, Taiwan and Laos, or Left side driving countries, like Thailand and Japan.

Of course it's not really "dumb," that's why I suggested a better title for this thread. Are are bicyles still requried to give way to pedestrians on the "wrong" side of the path.

Snipped.

Very relevant, I had relatives from Holland over and now appreciate the left and right stuff a bit more. My friend did not even want to try driving whilst here. Makes some of the sheepish behaviour understandable. :D
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