The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby il padrone » Mon Apr 08, 2013 6:58 pm

zero wrote:Separated grade is non trivial, because the standard design practice is to deviate the pedestrian to the crossing. A pedestrian can't be deviated more than about 50m before many start calculating a direct motorway crossing as worth the time saved, and deviations significantly reduce the range of journeys that are able to be undertaken at all by pedestrians that originate near the middle of the gap between crossings - ie this is yet again, forcing pedestrians to be unable to do things or make pedestrian journeys slower, so that people can drive cars faster.

In the Netherlands the approach is to encourage pedestrians, public transport, and cyclisng. Their journeys are made easier, while in urban areas it is the motorists who are expected to deviate, give way and take a longer journey generally.

Similar in Copenhagen I believe. Generally this together with the very high costs of car ownership and operation work to deter many from bothering with driving. We have not woken up to the consequences of our selfish actions as motorists in Australia yet. Maybe one day we will see a shift of values :|
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by BNA » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:16 pm

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Myrtone » Mon Apr 08, 2013 7:16 pm

zero wrote:
Myrtone wrote:
Traffic lights are there to make intersection decisions easier for road users, and give them less to think about! Many intersections have traffic lights, most do not, how do those desiging the roads decide which intersections to signalise?


They are there to allow people to approach them in motor vehicles speeds where they could never successfully judge and resolve collision course issues in the time available - particularly in cities with block buildings within a couple of m of the intersection corner. They don't make decisions easier, because they make motorist go through the its yellow do I race or not decision, which is harder than pedestrians routing around each other.


Of course they give drivers less to think about, if the traffic light is red you wait for a green. They provide the cetainly that the lights on the cross street will be red whenever you have green light, hence checking for traffic on the cross street is not relavent to avoiding an at-fault collision.

zero wrote:If it took 15 seconds to get a pedestrian green light reliably, or if you walked up to an intersection and it was 40% chance of being green when trying to travel along a road, then disobedience rates by pedestrians would be minimal. It is the expectation of the pedestrian that they will have to stop at every road, and that it will take some time staring at the empty road waiting for the intersection to set for them, that causes them to disobey the lights.


This may be one factor, but the lack of enforcement is another one. Indeed red right may indeed be displayed unecessarily to peds, though...

zero wrote:I often see when traversing kent st/king st, 100+ pedestrians disobey the lights in 10 minutes.


...but it is unlikely that a signle motorist will run a red light in that time, the traffic light rules for motorists are more strictly enforced.

zero wrote:Separated grade is non trivial, because the standard design practice is to deviate the pedestrian to the crossing. A pedestrian can't be deviated more than about 50m before many start calculating a direct motorway crossing as worth the time saved, and deviations significantly reduce the range of journeys that are able to be undertaken at all by pedestrians that originate near the middle of the gap between crossings - ie this is yet again, forcing pedestrians to be unable to do things or make pedestrian journeys slower, so that people can drive cars faster.


Seperated grade is an important consideration becasue it is possible in many cases, does expand range of journeys that peds can undertake, and adds safety and convenience.

il padrone wrote:
zero wrote:Separated grade is non trivial, because the standard design practice is to deviate the pedestrian to the crossing. A pedestrian can't be deviated more than about 50m before many start calculating a direct motorway crossing as worth the time saved, and deviations significantly reduce the range of journeys that are able to be undertaken at all by pedestrians that originate near the middle of the gap between crossings - ie this is yet again, forcing pedestrians to be unable to do things or make pedestrian journeys slower, so that people can drive cars faster.

In the Netherlands the approach is to encourage pedestrians, public transport, and cyclisng. Their journeys are made easier, while in urban areas it is the motorists who are expected to deviate, give way and take a longer journey generally.

Similar in Copenhagen I believe. Generally this together with the very high costs of car ownership and operation work to deter many from bothering with driving. We have not woken up to the consequences of our selfish actions as motorists in Australia yet. Maybe one day we will see a shift of values :|


The streets of Amsterdam, and, as far as I know, Copenhagen, are generally narrower than, say here in Melbourne. Fruthermore, trams in Amsterdam carry bicycles.




These two educational films made it clear way back in the 1950s that the motor car doesn't take us everywhere, but a fact that they don't mention, which may seem obviously relevant to me, but may not occur to most others as "relevant," is the need to meet certain mininum standards reguarding vision and health, along with the need to pass a driving test in order to be able to drive, that not everyone is able to drive, due to age or disablilities. But bicycles, let alone motorcyles do show up at all in either of those films.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Aushiker » Tue Apr 09, 2013 9:41 am



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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby AKO » Tue Apr 09, 2013 1:24 pm

Aushiker wrote:

Andrew

Those morons on the shared path annoyed me greatly but I did laugh at silly cyclist #3. I would put him in the silly category. He looked over his shoulder to see if it was safe to pull out but didn't acknowledge the faster cyclist coming through. :roll:
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby VRE » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:10 pm

Speaking of morons on shared paths: I had rounded the right-hand bend on the section of bike lane* on Yarra Blvd, Kew, when I was overtaken by a stravapest clearly so intent on getting his KOM that he completely failed to notice that he almost clipped my front wheel when pulling in front of me. I don't know why he pulled in front of me so soon, as there was nobody ahead of us. Just a d###, I guess.

* which could be argued to be a shared path or an on-road bike lane separated from the other lanes by a kerb. I'm not interested in debating which, though, as it's irrelevant to the above comment.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jules21 » Tue Apr 09, 2013 5:24 pm

VRE wrote: I had rounded the right-hand bend on the section of bike lane* on Yarra Blvd, Kew, when I was overtaken by a stravapest clearly so intent on getting his KOM

good luck getting a KOM there anyway, white hot competition on that road!
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jasonc » Tue Apr 09, 2013 8:00 pm

jules21 wrote:
VRE wrote: I had rounded the right-hand bend on the section of bike lane* on Yarra Blvd, Kew, when I was overtaken by a stravapest clearly so intent on getting his KOM

good luck getting a KOM there anyway, white hot competition on that road!


what segment is it? I may know the kom
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby DavidS » Tue Apr 09, 2013 11:33 pm

I was almost the silly cyclist today. About to go through a roundabout, taxi crossing in front of me and I thought, no worries, he'll be well gone by the time I get to the roundabout. The taxi just stopped in the middle of the roundabout. I had one arm out indicating and had to swerve while steering with one hand. Luckily I missed him. But, why did he stop in the middle of a roundabout? Because there's a pedestrian crossing at the exit to the roundabout. Apparently this is the new way to design roundabouts, put pedestrian crossings across the road at the exit points of the roundabouts. In a word: stupid. No idea who came up with this idea but it is dangerous. Dangerous to pedestrians who cross at the exit of the roundabout, dangerous to vehicles in the roundabouts because they often have to stop suddenly while in an intersection. They also congest the traffic which can also lead to accidents. I have never understood the rationale for pedestrian crossings around roundabouts and today I experienced why I think this is a stupid design.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby trailgumby » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:34 am

Hooboy, there were some silly manouvres this morning on the coathanger. :shock:

A couple of roadies came flying past myself and another guy, and only just made it back in time to avoid the head-on with the procession climbing up from The Observatory end. Would have been inches in it. Just missed clipping the guy in front of me. If he hadn't shifted slightly left there's have been a stack for sure, that would have taken me out as well.

Unfortunately I must have accidentally switched the camera off earlier in the commute when adjusting its position. Grr!

Then on the cycleway approach to the Pyrmont Bridge ... I have to say I now have much more sympathy for 'Arry Screwloose. Far out, some riders like pushing the limits with stupid overtaking and passing manouvres. Real narrow margins, no allowance for peds and other riders to do the unexpected. Idiots.

:evil: :evil:
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby rdp_au » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:15 am

Very nearly collected a myopic pedestrian near Eastwood station last night on the way home. He got out of the driver’s seat of a parked car just as I was passing and stepped straight across the road without so much as a glance in either direction. I was travelling slowly and on full alert, but it still caught me by surprise. Had to swerve and do a hard emergency stop and get unclipped and feet down quicksmart before I fell over onto the wrong side of the road. Stopped about 10cm from his heel as he blithely walked past. It’s probably the first time I really could have used an Airzound – nothing short of a foghorn was going to wake him out of wherever his mind was. I don’t know what it is about that area, but it seems to be frequented by inattentive drivers and at times suicidal pedestrians. This is the third time I’ve had a close call on the very same stretch.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Summernight » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:17 am

DavidS wrote:I was almost the silly cyclist today. About to go through a roundabout, taxi crossing in front of me and I thought, no worries, he'll be well gone by the time I get to the roundabout. The taxi just stopped in the middle of the roundabout. I had one arm out indicating and had to swerve while steering with one hand. Luckily I missed him. But, why did he stop in the middle of a roundabout? Because there's a pedestrian crossing at the exit to the roundabout. Apparently this is the new way to design roundabouts, put pedestrian crossings across the road at the exit points of the roundabouts. In a word: stupid. No idea who came up with this idea but it is dangerous. Dangerous to pedestrians who cross at the exit of the roundabout, dangerous to vehicles in the roundabouts because they often have to stop suddenly while in an intersection. They also congest the traffic which can also lead to accidents. I have never understood the rationale for pedestrian crossings around roundabouts and today I experienced why I think this is a stupid design.

DS


Those types of roundabouts have become all the rage in Mildura, VIC. They are weird. If you know one is coming up you can adjust but otherwise it is a bit disconcerting stopping in the middle of a roundabout to wait for a ped to cross the zebra lines. The one in Mildura has zebra crossings at all four roundabout entry points.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Myrtone » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:59 am

Zebra crossings should be withdrawn from a roundabout by at least one vehicle length. Has anyone ever wondered why those turing at rounabout are not required to give way to pedestrians, is it for the same reason those in the rounabout have pracedence over those entering? Which would be to avoid stopping in a roundabout. The idea behind a roundabout is that road users arriving within a sufficently short time of each other groing around and sufficiently close speeds can aviod each other. But four way roundabouts do create conflict between road users approaching from opposite direcitons that are both turning right.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby herzog » Wed Apr 10, 2013 2:55 pm

Yeah fancy prioritizing people over motor vehicles!

FWIW, most European countries provide crossings in the throats of roundabouts and it is a good thing in my view.

In oz, drivers charge into roundabouts looking ONLY to their right and ignoring the fact that every entry point to a roundabout is a give way sign.

Bring on the crossings. If it slows down the motorists and actually forces them to look, it's a good thing.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby malnar » Wed Apr 10, 2013 3:39 pm

True. I need to turn left into Heaths Rd at a roundabout near home. Heaths Rd is a 70k zone & the drivers on Heaths have unblocked visibility to the right as they approach the roundabout. This typically means vehicles go through at about 60 ks. This makes my left turn into Heaths quite tricky in a car. If I was to get hit in the drivers side rear corner it would be impossible for me to prove that when I commenced my left turn the roundabout was vacant.

Thankfully I don't do this route on a bike.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Myrtone » Wed Apr 10, 2013 6:57 pm

herzog wrote:Yeah fancy prioritizing people over motor vehicles!

FWIW, most European countries provide crossings in the throats of roundabouts and it is a good thing in my view.

In oz, drivers charge into roundabouts looking ONLY to their right and ignoring the fact that every entry point to a roundabout is a give way sign.

Bring on the crossings. If it slows down the motorists and actually forces them to look, it's a good thing.


1) In some cases, it may be better to locate pedestrian crossings midblock. But note that cyclists can be road users too,
2) But anyone already in the roundabout is on their right.
3)But it would do the same with cyclists sharing the road space, is that a good thing?
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby herzog » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:42 pm

Myrtone wrote:2) But anyone already in the roundabout is on their right.


No, sometimes they are right in front of you.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby trailgumby » Wed Apr 10, 2013 9:04 pm

herzog wrote:Yeah fancy prioritizing people over motor vehicles!

FWIW, most European countries provide crossings in the throats of roundabouts and it is a good thing in my view.

In oz, drivers charge into roundabouts looking ONLY to their right and ignoring the fact that every entry point to a roundabout is a give way sign.

Bring on the crossings. If it slows down the motorists and actually forces them to look, it's a good thing.


+ 50 million :lol:
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Summernight » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:30 pm

herzog wrote:
Myrtone wrote:2) But anyone already in the roundabout is on their right.


No, sometimes they are right in front of you.



O.M.Gosh... That's brutal. Are you healed from that accident?
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby herzog » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:39 pm

Fortunately it wasn't me, but you're right, it was a decent hit.

Rider was doing everything right too.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby VRE » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:43 pm

herzog wrote:Fortunately it wasn't me, but you're right, it was a decent hit.

Rider was doing everything right too.

I don't completely agree with that - he was hugging the left kerb heading towards the roundabout, when ideally he should have claimed the lane well before the roundabout.

Any information on how he recovered? It looks like he copped a pretty solid hit :( .
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby bychosis » Thu Apr 11, 2013 12:48 pm

I think he was on the news or topical current affairs program at the time as having only minor injuries. NSW Central Coast from memory.

Needs to get lock out for the suspension though, eyes are still bouncing.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby find_bruce » Thu Apr 11, 2013 5:15 pm

VRE wrote:
herzog wrote:Fortunately it wasn't me, but you're right, it was a decent hit.

Rider was doing everything right too.

I don't completely agree with that - he was hugging the left kerb heading towards the roundabout, when ideally he should have claimed the lane well before the roundabout.

Any information on how he recovered? It looks like he copped a pretty solid hit :( .

I agree that he could have moved more positively to the right, to ride in a similar position as he did before the merge. As it turned out, I don't think it made any difference to the cause of the collision, but that's not what you are suggesting is it ?
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby VRE » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:58 pm

find_bruce wrote:
VRE wrote:
herzog wrote:Fortunately it wasn't me, but you're right, it was a decent hit.

Rider was doing everything right too.

I don't completely agree with that - he was hugging the left kerb heading towards the roundabout, when ideally he should have claimed the lane well before the roundabout.

Any information on how he recovered? It looks like he copped a pretty solid hit :( .

I agree that he could have moved more positively to the right, to ride in a similar position as he did before the merge. As it turned out, I don't think it made any difference to the cause of the collision, but that's not what you are suggesting is it ?

You're right, I'm not suggesting it made any difference to the collision, only disagreeing with "rider was doing everything right" (and hopefully herzog won't be annoyed with me for saying that :) ).
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby skull » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:14 pm

Summernight wrote:
herzog wrote:
Myrtone wrote:2) But anyone already in the roundabout is on their right.


No, sometimes they are right in front of you.



O.M.Gosh... That's brutal. Are you healed from that accident?




Why was he talking about a far canal for at the end?

He just got hit by a car
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby zero » Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:08 pm

find_bruce wrote:
VRE wrote:
herzog wrote:Fortunately it wasn't me, but you're right, it was a decent hit.

Rider was doing everything right too.

I don't completely agree with that - he was hugging the left kerb heading towards the roundabout, when ideally he should have claimed the lane well before the roundabout.

Any information on how he recovered? It looks like he copped a pretty solid hit :( .

I agree that he could have moved more positively to the right, to ride in a similar position as he did before the merge. As it turned out, I don't think it made any difference to the cause of the collision, but that's not what you are suggesting is it ?


Lane position is fine, and largely unrelated to this accident - he went behind all the traffic travelling on the same road as him and I'd presume he head checked the move. ie quite possibly nobody behind him - the entry/exit divider is massive and anyone past the exit clearly signals their intention to proceed simply by being there - ie the driver had multiple seconds to be aware the rider was going straight and to give way, and the rider is plainly visible. Poor driver, combined with overly free roundabout entry path.
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