The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby lobstermash » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:16 am

I heard on the radio a few weeks back that people were giving out bike lights in Gareema Pl. They need to hand them out to peds too I reckon... I'd even be happy to carry a big stack of cheapies and hand them out to peds following near misses...
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by BNA » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:30 am

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Wakatuki » Mon Jun 17, 2013 11:30 am

lobstermash wrote:I heard on the radio a few weeks back that people were giving out bike lights in Gareema Pl. They need to hand them out to peds too I reckon... I'd even be happy to carry a big stack of cheapies and hand them out to peds following near misses...


+1 Leds cost bugger all and a life saver, just a simple flasher, love the Knogs as an additional flasher, very versatile.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Xenon » Mon Jun 17, 2013 7:07 pm

I came across a young lady walking her dog tonight; not only was she wearing white, but the dog was wearing a reflective hi-viz vest :). I was very impressed.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:46 pm

ldrcycles wrote:I remember being taught in primary school to always walk against traffic if there was no footpath and you had to walk on the road.

For some reason however we cyclists see pedestrians walking on a shared path against the flow as being somehow arrogant and annoying. I would certainly put the Riverside Drive PSP on my list of places where it is best to walk against the flow. I am always experiencing riders in ones and two slicing between oncoming riders and peds.

When I was riding in Mauritius when on a highway approaching a bend with limited line of sight I would most often put myself on the outside of that bend. A driver coming around a bend at, say, 70kph onto the back of someone doing 10kph is not a good thing. We have better clearer roads generally in Oz but occasionally I will find it wise to do the same locally when out of the suburbs.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby zero » Thu Jun 27, 2013 6:25 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:I remember being taught in primary school to always walk against traffic if there was no footpath and you had to walk on the road.

For some reason however we cyclists see pedestrians walking on a shared path against the flow as being somehow arrogant and annoying. I would certainly put the Riverside Drive PSP on my list of places where it is best to walk against the flow. I am always experiencing riders in ones and two slicing between oncoming riders and peds.

When I was riding in Mauritius when on a highway approaching a bend with limited line of sight I would most often put myself on the outside of that bend. A driver coming around a bend at, say, 70kph onto the back of someone doing 10kph is not a good thing. We have better clearer roads generally in Oz but occasionally I will find it wise to do the same locally when out of the suburbs.


It has absolutely no effect on slicing through by cyclists. All it does is change the side that they pass you on, making whatever it is you wanted to achieve pointless. The reason that people walk on the wrong side of a road is to vacate the roadway altogether for motorists. That is not the operation that is in effect on a sharepath. Also I have observed it appears to cause the pedestrian you are walking towards, to step sideways blindly to get around you, so you may well find yourself observing more collisions if you keep doing this.

The most compelling reason I saw for not doing this happened to me the week before last on Union St cycleway. Woman jogging up the wrong side of the path, had a bicycle 5m behind her. I had absolutely no choice but to stop as they were both doing 25 and I was doing 30 (I'd never have shot that gap), and she got huffy about me not moving out of her way. If she'd ran up the left side of the path, we wouldn't have that problem, and the cyclist behind her (who did wait for the safe moment to pass) would still have had to wait for a safe moment to pass regardless.

What you need to do as a cyclist, who intends remaining on the roadway on the inside of a sharp corner, is remain wide enough in the corner to be visible, until the point you might let the motorist through occurs. ie if there is a gap in traffic, there is no reason you can't be 1m from the centerline, even if you intend on pulling all the way to the left when a car comes up behind you, or whether you intend claiming the lane on an ongoing basis.
Last edited by zero on Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:17 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
ldrcycles wrote:I remember being taught in primary school to always walk against traffic if there was no footpath and you had to walk on the road.

For some reason however we cyclists see pedestrians walking on a shared path against the flow as being somehow arrogant and annoying. I would certainly put the Riverside Drive PSP on my list of places where it is best to walk against the flow. I am always experiencing riders in ones and two slicing between oncoming riders and peds.

When I was riding in Mauritius when on a highway approaching a bend with limited line of sight I would most often put myself on the outside of that bend. A driver coming around a bend at, say, 70kph onto the back of someone doing 10kph is not a good thing. We have better clearer roads generally in Oz but occasionally I will find it wise to do the same locally when out of the suburbs.


The problem with pedestrians walking on the wrong side is that you don't know if they are going to stay there or not. Even if you go slow, they can still knock you over.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Percrime » Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:38 pm

The other problem is that its idiotic. You know the situation your grandparents were talking about when they were taught that? It was walking on a country road. In a 100 zone One with maybe a car every half hour. And no verges... shoulder or footpath. In which case walking facing oncoming traffic makes perfect sense. And thats the only time it does.


Let me just reiterate that. ANYONE who translates that to a shared path with hundreds of people going past any point a day is really really really not smart.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Laidlaym » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:39 pm

Percrime wrote:The other problem is that its idiotic. You know the situation your grandparents were talking about when they were taught that? It was walking on a country road. In a 100 zone One with maybe a car every half hour. And no verges... shoulder or footpath. In which case walking facing oncoming traffic makes perfect sense. And thats the only time it does.


Let me just reiterate that. ANYONE who translates that to a shared path with hundreds of people going past any point a day is really really really not smart.


No speed limit on open roads when I was taught that, no KPH either.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Biffidus » Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:59 pm

It's much better to walk on the left - cyclists approach from behind and can ride (slowly) behind you until a gap appears. If you walk on the right then either you or the oncoming cyclist has to take evasive action or you both have to wait (or collide).
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:03 pm

zero wrote:It has absolutely no effect on slicing through by cyclists. All it does is change the side that they pass you on, making whatever it is you wanted to achieve pointless. The reason that people walk on the wrong side of a road is to vacate the roadway altogether for motorists. That is not the operation that is in effect on a sharepath. Also I have observed it appears to cause the pedestrian you are walking towards, to step sideways blindly to get around you, so you may well find yourself observing more collisions if you keep doing this.

I didn't think it need explaining but something seems to have been lost in the translation so here goes.

I agree, it has no effect on cyclists that are cutting it fine. A tool is a tool whatever. But when a ped sees some ignoramus heading towards them is gonna cut it fine, then that ped can at least step off the path onto the shoulder, the mud, whatever. Exactly why the safety talks to kids in the past advised them to walk into the traffic.

  • If peds are walking against the direction of flow and sees (say) me coming at them from the front then they will ignore me - I'll will move to the other side as I pass. However if some coming up behind them on th3e side opposite them and me I can't move over, the peds see me on collision course then step off the path. The peds see it all happening and can take evasive action.
  • If peds are instead walking with the flow and they see me coming towards them, I'm not a threat. UNTIL the tool in a hurry coming behind the peds wants to pass without slowing. The peds have no idea that he is there and that he will cut it fine by slicing between them and me. Being a cyclist I am unlikely to be deviating off the path. Close encounter of the worst kind is likely

Your statement "That is not the operation that is in effect on a sharepath" has me confused.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Thu Jun 27, 2013 10:14 pm

Biffidus wrote:It's much better to walk on the left - cyclists approach from behind and can ride (slowly) behind you until a gap appears. If you walk on the right then either you or the oncoming cyclist has to take evasive action or you both have to wait (or collide).

Sorry Biff but you are in an alternate universe.

Yeah, no problem at all. IF cyclists approaching from behind DO ride slowly behind you until a gap appears. The problem peds face many times each walk is the rider that simply times his motion to slide between them and another oncoming rider or oncoming ped.

Regardless of your own riding ettiquette, pls don't deny that those riders are there, in numbers. And it is THOSE riders are what should determine the action of peds taking responsibility for their own safety.

I have never judged such peds adversely but amny cyclists do. Those peds are not arrogant, selfish or spoiling for a fight. They are simply the smarter peds.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby BandedRail » Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:05 pm

ColinOldnCranky wrote:
Biffidus wrote:It's much better to walk on the left - cyclists approach from behind and can ride (slowly) behind you until a gap appears. If you walk on the right then either you or the oncoming cyclist has to take evasive action or you both have to wait (or collide).

Sorry Biff but you are in an alternate universe.

Yeah, no problem at all. IF cyclists approaching from behind DO ride slowly behind you until a gap appears. The problem peds face many times each walk is the rider that simply times his motion to slide between them and another oncoming rider or oncoming ped.

Regardless of your own riding ettiquette, pls don't deny that those riders are there, in numbers. And it is THOSE riders are what should determine the action of peds taking responsibility for their own safety.

I have never judged such peds adversely but amny cyclists do. Those peds are not arrogant, selfish or spoiling for a fight. They are simply the smarter peds.


Sorry Colin but I think it is you who is in an alternate universe. I've seen this situation unfold several times now - pedestrians walking on the right meets a cyclist coming towards them - cyclist stops as they see a cyclist coming from the opposite direction - pedestrians put nose in air (for real, they actually did this) and step onto the opposite side of the path without looking causing the other cyclist to take evasive action. Yet another close call and not because the cyclists were behaving badly. Pedestrians can walk on the wrong side of the ROAD if there is no footpath or nature strip (amazing how they forget that last clause) but it doesn't scale to shared paths - oncoming traffic doesn't have the room to manouver as they would on a road. Two wrongs don't make a right, having pedestrians on shared paths behaving badly isn't going to stop some cylists behaving badly - it will just make things worse for cylists who are trying to do the right thing.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:06 am

BandedRail wrote:
ColinOldnCranky wrote:
Biffidus wrote:It's much better to walk on the left - cyclists approach from behind and can ride (slowly) behind you until a gap appears. If you walk on the right then either you or the oncoming cyclist has to take evasive action or you both have to wait (or collide).

Sorry Biff but you are in an alternate universe.

Yeah, no problem at all. IF cyclists approaching from behind DO ride slowly behind you until a gap appears. The problem peds face many times each walk is the rider that simply times his motion to slide between them and another oncoming rider or oncoming ped.

Regardless of your own riding ettiquette, pls don't deny that those riders are there, in numbers. And it is THOSE riders are what should determine the action of peds taking responsibility for their own safety.

I have never judged such peds adversely but amny cyclists do. Those peds are not arrogant, selfish or spoiling for a fight. They are simply the smarter peds.


Sorry Colin but I think it is you who is in an alternate universe. I've seen this situation unfold several times now - pedestrians walking on the right meets a cyclist coming towards them - cyclist stops as they see a cyclist coming from the opposite direction - pedestrians put nose in air (for real, they actually did this) and step onto the opposite side of the path without looking causing the other cyclist to take evasive action. Yet another close call and not because the cyclists were behaving badly. Pedestrians can walk on the wrong side of the ROAD if there is no footpath or nature strip (amazing how they forget that last clause) but it doesn't scale to shared paths - oncoming traffic doesn't have the room to manouver as they would on a road. Two wrongs don't make a right, having pedestrians on shared paths behaving badly isn't going to stop some cylists behaving badly - it will just make things worse for cylists who are trying to do the right thing.


The thing is that it is the sane peds legitimate business if they wish to improve their chances against an unseen hazard. If there are insane people out there on the path who do as you say then that is another issue which does not make the rationale any less compelling for the rest. No person is gonna deliberately follow their example unless they are one of those idiot cyclist-hating peds that are trying to make a point of some kind.

I can't recall ever seeing one do as you state and I consider that spending around 3000 hours on a range of PSPs to be a good pbservational base.

I have, on the other hand, seen peds doing freaky things when a cyclist behind them tings their bell or otherwise surprises them. But that is the outcome of surprise and not seeing the path of the hazard moving to them - typically restricted to when a cyclist is passing a ped (from behind) that is about to veer right off the path at a right fork or junction without a check. Walking on what some consider to the the "wrong" side puts the hazard right in front of them. No surprises.

Anyway, the rules give peds the choice. Which is the stand taken all the time when cyclists are asked why they claiming a the lane. That argument goes all ways, not just the way of cyclists.

It seems that someone needs to make your case to the traffic authorities if they believe it is an issue. I am far from convinced that walking towards cyclists is less safe for a ped than the alternative. I am readily convinced however that it annoys the hell out of some riders. c'est la vis.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:38 am

What he described above I have seen - just because you've not seen it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen ever. Although I know you'll clarify your statement that you never said that and so on and so forth.

Sometimes the pedestrians move so late and so suddenly that you've got to swerve off onto very uneven ground which is a safety hazard. Where do you go if there are fences or gutters on both sides? Have a crash yourself? I was the victim of one such pedestrian. I can show you the scar left over if you don't believe me.


I openly get very angry with pedestrians on the wrong side of the path. It is dangerous for everyone. They should have rego and the law should be changed to stop it.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Percrime » Fri Jun 28, 2013 8:32 am

Laidlaym wrote:
Percrime wrote:The other problem is that its idiotic. You know the situation your grandparents were talking about when they were taught that? It was walking on a country road. In a 100 zone One with maybe a car every half hour. And no verges... shoulder or footpath. In which case walking facing oncoming traffic makes perfect sense. And thats the only time it does.


Let me just reiterate that. ANYONE who translates that to a shared path with hundreds of people going past any point a day is really really really not smart.


No speed limit on open roads when I was taught that, no KPH either.

Mark


Yeah I thought I needed to keep it simple and current for the intended audience. Those who would walk on the wrong side of the road. But apparently it used too many words and so could not be read.

Its interesting watching what happens when peds walking on the wrong side of the path meet peds walking on the right side. It ALWAYS involves someone stepping sideways without looking behind them.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby blkmcs » Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:08 am

Percrime wrote:...

Its interesting watching what happens when peds walking on the wrong side of the path meet peds walking on the right side. It ALWAYS involves someone stepping sideways without looking behind them.

Which is only ever a problem when an approaching cyclist fails to ring their bell, in my experience a bell stops them in their tracks.
In fact if two pedestrians are walking on the left and one is faster than the other then the faster walker will step out to overtake the slower walker, the problem remains the same.

I'm 100% with Colin on this one and when I'm a pedestrian on a shared path I generally walk on the right rather that trust my safety to cyclists, sometimes walking on the left is the safer option, my choice!

I do not discount any of the horror tales mentioned above but isolated experiences where walking on the right has caused a problem do not negate the overall safety aspect.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby biker jk » Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:28 am

blkmcs wrote:
Percrime wrote:...

Its interesting watching what happens when peds walking on the wrong side of the path meet peds walking on the right side. It ALWAYS involves someone stepping sideways without looking behind them.

Which is only ever a problem when an approaching cyclist fails to ring their bell, in my experience a bell stops them in their tracks.
In fact if two pedestrians are walking on the left and one is faster than the other then the faster walker will step out to overtake the slower walker, the problem remains the same.

I'm 100% with Colin on this one and when I'm a pedestrian on a shared path I generally walk on the right rather that trust my safety to cyclists, sometimes walking on the left is the safer option, my choice!

I do not discount any of the horror tales mentioned above but isolated experiences where walking on the right has caused a problem do not negate the overall safety aspect.


It's your choice to break the law then because you are required to keep left. There is no justification to walk on the right hand side of a shared path unless passing another pedestrian.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Fri Jun 28, 2013 11:31 am

blkmcs wrote:
Percrime wrote:...

Its interesting watching what happens when peds walking on the wrong side of the path meet peds walking on the right side. It ALWAYS involves someone stepping sideways without looking behind them.

Which is only ever a problem when an approaching cyclist fails to ring their bell, in my experience a bell stops them in their tracks.
In fact if two pedestrians are walking on the left and one is faster than the other then the faster walker will step out to overtake the slower walker, the problem remains the same.

I'm 100% with Colin on this one and when I'm a pedestrian on a shared path I generally walk on the right rather that trust my safety to cyclists, sometimes walking on the left is the safer option, my choice!

I do not discount any of the horror tales mentioned above but isolated experiences where walking on the right has caused a problem do not negate the overall safety aspect.


What happens when the cyclist rings their bell but it isn't heard by the side steeping pedestrian because they've got Bose Noise Cancelling headphones on and cannot hear a thing, and the other pedestrian is looking at their phone instead of where they are going.

Is that the cyclists fault now because they weren't taking enough care, or some other reason that I've not thought of - but basically attributing blame to the cyclist and absolving the pedestrian of responsibility to take care in watching where they are going?
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby blkmcs » Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:14 pm

biker jk wrote:
blkmcs wrote:
Percrime wrote:...

Its interesting watching what happens when peds walking on the wrong side of the path meet peds walking on the right side. It ALWAYS involves someone stepping sideways without looking behind them.

Which is only ever a problem when an approaching cyclist fails to ring their bell, in my experience a bell stops them in their tracks.
In fact if two pedestrians are walking on the left and one is faster than the other then the faster walker will step out to overtake the slower walker, the problem remains the same.

I'm 100% with Colin on this one and when I'm a pedestrian on a shared path I generally walk on the right rather that trust my safety to cyclists, sometimes walking on the left is the safer option, my choice!

I do not discount any of the horror tales mentioned above but isolated experiences where walking on the right has caused a problem do not negate the overall safety aspect.


It's your choice to break the law then because you are required to keep left. There is no justification to walk on the right hand side of a shared path unless passing another pedestrian.

In Western Australia there is no such law to break and I suspect that the same situation exists in other states; the justification is my safety.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby warthog1 » Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:21 pm

If anyone needed further evidence as to why you should avoid psp's like the plague the above discussion provides it.
Rules are provided to attempt to bring some sort of order to the situation.
Advocating for pedestrians to ignore them is advocating for chaos IMO.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby blkmcs » Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:23 pm

g-boaf wrote:
blkmcs wrote:
Percrime wrote:...

Its interesting watching what happens when peds walking on the wrong side of the path meet peds walking on the right side. It ALWAYS involves someone stepping sideways without looking behind them.

Which is only ever a problem when an approaching cyclist fails to ring their bell, in my experience a bell stops them in their tracks.
In fact if two pedestrians are walking on the left and one is faster than the other then the faster walker will step out to overtake the slower walker, the problem remains the same.

I'm 100% with Colin on this one and when I'm a pedestrian on a shared path I generally walk on the right rather that trust my safety to cyclists, sometimes walking on the left is the safer option, my choice!

I do not discount any of the horror tales mentioned above but isolated experiences where walking on the right has caused a problem do not negate the overall safety aspect.


What happens when the cyclist rings their bell but it isn't heard by the side steeping pedestrian because they've got Bose Noise Cancelling headphones on and cannot hear a thing, and the other pedestrian is looking at their phone instead of where they are going.

Is that the cyclists fault now because they weren't taking enough care, or some other reason that I've not thought of - but basically attributing blame to the cyclist and absolving the pedestrian of responsibility to take care in watching where they are going?


If a cyclists sees a situation where a pedestrian might side step and the cyclist does not take appropriate action then yes the cyclist would be at fault.
Whenever a road/path user runs into another user from behind it is fairly clear where the bulk of the responsibility lies, both parties may share the blame but the larger part must fall on the overtaking party.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby blkmcs » Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:28 pm

warthog1 wrote:If anyone needed further evidence as to why you should avoid psp's like the plague the above discussion provides it.
Rules are provided to attempt to bring some sort of order to the situation.
Advocating for pedestrians to ignore them is advocating for chaos IMO.

I have not seen anyone advocating for pedestrians to ignore the rules.
This year I have ridden over 3,000 kilometres on shared paths and almost all the rule breaking I have seen has been done by cyclists, my interactions with pedestrians have been trouble free apart from two instances with dog walkers.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Fri Jun 28, 2013 12:30 pm

blkmcs wrote:If a cyclists sees a situation where a pedestrian might side step and the cyclist does not take appropriate action then yes the cyclist would be at fault.
Whenever a road/path user runs into another user from behind it is fairly clear where the bulk of the responsibility lies, both parties may share the blame but the larger part must fall on the overtaking party.


I give up... I will now support the rights of pedestrians to do as they wish, and to be able to injure and hurt cyclists however and whenever they want.

Doing otherwise and advocating for sensible use of wide shared paths is impossible. :roll: But I will also argue strongly in favour of motorists rights to own the road, and that cyclists don't belong on the road - in this case. I can be devils advocate too.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby zero » Fri Jun 28, 2013 2:45 pm

blkmcs wrote:
warthog1 wrote:If anyone needed further evidence as to why you should avoid psp's like the plague the above discussion provides it.
Rules are provided to attempt to bring some sort of order to the situation.
Advocating for pedestrians to ignore them is advocating for chaos IMO.

I have not seen anyone advocating for pedestrians to ignore the rules.
This year I have ridden over 3,000 kilometres on shared paths and almost all the rule breaking I have seen has been done by cyclists, my interactions with pedestrians have been trouble free apart from two instances with dog walkers.


Step into path of a vehicle applies to sharepaths. The red man on road crossings of sharepaths apply to pedestrians, there are 2 examples I routinely see broken by pedestrians.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby biker jk » Fri Jun 28, 2013 3:14 pm

blkmcs wrote:
biker jk wrote:
It's your choice to break the law then because you are required to keep left. There is no justification to walk on the right hand side of a shared path unless passing another pedestrian.


In Western Australia there is no such law to break and I suspect that the same situation exists in other states; the justification is my safety.


Well even in WA you are required to keep left as a pedestrian on a shared path. It's certainly also the case in NSW.

https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/Documents/Share%20the%20Path%20Brochure1.u_4103286r_1n_D12%5E23367576.PDF
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