The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby blkmcs » Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:08 pm

biker jk wrote:
blkmcs wrote:
biker jk wrote:
It's your choice to break the law then because you are required to keep left. There is no justification to walk on the right hand side of a shared path unless passing another pedestrian.


In Western Australia there is no such law to break and I suspect that the same situation exists in other states; the justification is my safety.


Well even in WA you are required to keep left as a pedestrian on a shared path. It's certainly also the case in NSW.

https://www.mainroads.wa.gov.au/Documents/Share%20the%20Path%20Brochure1.u_4103286r_1n_D12%5E23367576.PDF

That document simply advises keeping left, there is no requirement, please read the legislation.

Road Traffic Act
http://www.slp.wa.gov.au/legislation/st ... epage.html

Road Traffic Code
http://www.slp.wa.gov.au/legislation/st ... epage.html

Part 14 starting on page 216 deals with pedestrians.
Section 203 (3) & (4) are of interest.

(3) A pedestrian travelling along a carriageway —
(a) shall, where practicable, travel on the carriageway, or on
the side of the carriageway, used by vehicles travelling
in the opposite direction and keep as far to the right side
of the carriageway as is practicable
; and
(b) shall not travel on the carriageway alongside more than
one other pedestrian or vehicle travelling on the
carriageway in the same direction as the pedestrian,
unless the pedestrian is overtaking other pedestrians.
Modified penalty: 1 PU
(4) Despite subregulation (3), where a vehicle approaches a
pedestrian on a carriageway, on the same side as the pedestrian,
then the pedestrian shall, if possible, immediately move off the
carriageway, and shall not move back onto the carriageway,
until the vehicle has passed him or her.
Modified penalty: 1 PU

Whether or not a shared path is a carriageway I'll leave to others to decide.
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by BNA » Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:11 pm

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby zero » Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:11 pm

blkmcs wrote:Whether or not a shared path is a carriageway I'll leave to others to decide.


If horseless carriages can't drive on it, then it aint a carriageway.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby biker jk » Fri Jun 28, 2013 4:53 pm

The legislation you point to relates to roads not shared paths. The document I linked under "Shared Path Rules" says "Riders and pedestrians must keep left on shared paths and footpaths unless overtaking" [my emphasis added].
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby snortin » Fri Jun 28, 2013 5:01 pm

Further to that jk, a CARRIAGEWAY is defined as

"carriageway means a portion of a road that is improved,
designed or ordinarily used for vehicular traffic, and includes
the shoulders, and areas, including embankments, at the side or
centre of the carriageway, used for the stopping or parking of
vehicles; and, where a road has 2 or more of those portions
divided by a median strip, the expression means each of those
portions, separately"

Road Traffic Code 2000
Part 1 Preliminary
r. 3
page 8 Version 03-e0-02 As at 13 Apr 2013
Extract from http://www.slp.wa.gov.au , see that website for further information

It is a shared path, with arrows for direction of travel for pedestrians and bicycles (that tell you to keep on the left side of the path). I don't understand why you wouldn't keep left unless overtaking? Same principle as a road.
Bicycles should be travelling at a speed that would allow them to stop if a pedestrian steps in front of them to pass another pedestrian (obviously if they jump right into your path as you are passing then they have contributed to the accident - cyclists are required to GIVE WAY, pedestrians DO NOT have RIGHT OF WAY, there is a difference).
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:27 pm

blkmcs wrote:
warthog1 wrote:If anyone needed further evidence as to why you should avoid psp's like the plague the above discussion provides it.
Rules are provided to attempt to bring some sort of order to the situation.
Advocating for pedestrians to ignore them is advocating for chaos IMO.

I have not seen anyone advocating for pedestrians to ignore the rules.
This year I have ridden over 3,000 kilometres on shared paths and almost all the rule breaking I have seen has been done by cyclists, my interactions with pedestrians have been trouble free apart from two instances with dog walkers.

Exactly my experience. Pretty much daily. And one that I regularly mention, not just on this current discussion.

Cyclists, by and large and in my considerable experience, are worse sharers of the paths than peds.

A bit like drivers are on roads that cyclists wish to share. :?

btw this issue was not so obvious twenty years ago. Again a bit like the situation of motorists and cyclists. :?
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby zero » Fri Jun 28, 2013 7:39 pm

Pedestrians are awful sharers of paths particularly once they are in groups.

The only thing that bears mentioning is that the pedestrian is not inherently dangerous though, the inherent danger on paths is the cyclists momentum, and thats why the -standard- of cyclist behaviour is the one that should be higher.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby VRE » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:49 pm

All path and road users can be dangerous. Idiocy isn't restricted to any one mode of transport.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Percrime » Fri Jun 28, 2013 9:59 pm

THats certainly true. We have seen our very own advocate walking on the wrong side of bike paths. And made me likely to be far more hostile next time.. instead of my usual comment of "Bloody Americans..we walk on the left over here; learn it or go home"

Idiots are idiots.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby fingy » Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:12 pm

How much path do you need
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby blkmcs » Fri Jun 28, 2013 10:36 pm

biker jk wrote:The legislation you point to relates to roads not shared paths. The document I linked under "Shared Path Rules" says "Riders and pedestrians must keep left on shared paths and footpaths unless overtaking" [my emphasis added].
\
The section I quoted is relevant to this discussion because in earlier posts walking on the road facing oncoming traffic was dismissed as being from a bygone age when in fact it is still a requirement under current legislation. I did point out that it relates to carriageways.

In case you missed it the first time, I'll say it again. The document you quoted is advice only, it is not the legislation.
Show me where in the legislation it says that pedestrians must keep left and I'll give due consideration to changing my walking habits.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby warthog1 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:37 am

blkmcs wrote:
In case you missed it the first time, I'll say it again. The document you quoted is advice only, it is not the legislation.
Show me where in the legislation it says that pedestrians must keep left and I'll give due consideration to changing my walking habits.


So you'll ignore any painted dividing lines and directional lines also. After all they are only advice or pretty decorations on the pathway.
You'll also disregard the whole keep left convention that is common knowledge and analogous from the road system. Perhaps you choose to ride your bicycle against the traffic on the right hand side of the road also, so you can see any on coming traffic, and swerve to avoid it.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Hergest » Sat Jun 29, 2013 8:11 am

fingy wrote:How much path do you need



Nice broadslide.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby biker jk » Sat Jun 29, 2013 10:54 am

blkmcs wrote:
biker jk wrote:The legislation you point to relates to roads not shared paths. The document I linked under "Shared Path Rules" says "Riders and pedestrians must keep left on shared paths and footpaths unless overtaking" [my emphasis added].
\
The section I quoted is relevant to this discussion because in earlier posts walking on the road facing oncoming traffic was dismissed as being from a bygone age when in fact it is still a requirement under current legislation. I did point out that it relates to carriageways.

In case you missed it the first time, I'll say it again. The document you quoted is advice only, it is not the legislation.
Show me where in the legislation it says that pedestrians must keep left and I'll give due consideration to changing my walking habits.


You said "Whether or not a shared path is a carriageway I'll leave to others to decide." suggesting ambiguity on whether the referenced law applies to shared paths when clearly this isn't the case.

You are correct about there being no law for pedestrians to keep left on shared paths but then again you can't legislate for common sense on everything and so logical rules can continue to be broken.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby blkmcs » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:06 am

warthog1 wrote:
blkmcs wrote:
In case you missed it the first time, I'll say it again. The document you quoted is advice only, it is not the legislation.
Show me where in the legislation it says that pedestrians must keep left and I'll give due consideration to changing my walking habits.


So you'll ignore any painted dividing lines and directional lines also. After all they are only advice or pretty decorations on the pathway.
You'll also disregard the whole keep left convention that is common knowledge and analogous from the road system. Perhaps you choose to ride your bicycle against the traffic on the right hand side of the road also, so you can see any on coming traffic, and swerve to avoid it.


When dividing lines or directional lines relate to my mode of transport then of course I will take account of them, I have never suggested otherwise.

As to the keep left convention being "analogous from the road system" perhaps you missed this extract from the Road Traffic Code in my earlier post.

http://www.slp.wa.gov.au/legislation/st ... epage.html

Part 14 starting on page 216 deals with pedestrians.
Section 203 (3) & (4) are of interest.

(3) A pedestrian travelling along a carriageway —
(a) shall, where practicable, travel on the carriageway, or on
the side of the carriageway, used by vehicles travelling
in the opposite direction and keep as far to the right side
of the carriageway as is practicable;
and
(b) shall not travel on the carriageway alongside more than
one other pedestrian or vehicle travelling on the
carriageway in the same direction as the pedestrian,
unless the pedestrian is overtaking other pedestrians.
Modified penalty: 1 PU
(4) Despite subregulation (3), where a vehicle approaches a
pedestrian on a carriageway, on the same side as the pedestrian,
then the pedestrian shall, if possible, immediately move off the
carriageway, and shall not move back onto the carriageway,
until the vehicle has passed him or her.
Modified penalty: 1 PU

If you are suggesting that pedestrians should follow the same rules on the shared paths then clearly all pedestrians should walk on the right facing oncoming bicycles.

Extrapolating walking on the right to riding a bike on the right is plainly ridiculous and adds nothing of value to the discussion.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Sat Jun 29, 2013 12:42 pm

Around and around it goes...

Meanwhile I'd like to praise some 20 or so excellent pedestrians on the shared path between Reconciliation Road and Prospect Dam. They stayed obediently to the left of the path, not straying over the centre line at all.

What was so special about them? They were a herd of goats! :shock: :lol: If it weren't pouring down, I'd have taking photos of them.

They can't even read rules or signs, yet they stayed left of the dividing line. :)
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby warthog1 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:20 pm

blkmcs wrote:
If you are suggesting that pedestrians should follow the same rules on the shared paths then clearly all pedestrians should walk on the right facing oncoming bicycles.

Extrapolating walking on the right to riding a bike on the right is plainly ridiculous and adds nothing of value to the discussion.


No I was suggesting pedestrians on shared paths are similar to bicycles on the road, they are the slower moving mode of transport.
I don't know about you but I don't regularly see pedestrians on the road, that's why I didn't use that as an analogy.

In any case the very fact that I am discussing this on a cycling forum with a cyclist, who as I read it advocates pedestrians walk on the right hand side of a shared pathway, confirms that shared pathways as a concept are a dismal failure. I'll continue to stay well away from them.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby warthog1 » Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:21 pm

g-boaf wrote:Around and around it goes...

Meanwhile I'd like to praise some 20 or so excellent pedestrians on the shared path between Reconciliation Road and Prospect Dam. They stayed obediently to the left of the path, not straying over the centre line at all.

What was so special about them? They were a herd of goats! :shock: :lol: If it weren't pouring down, I'd have taking photos of them.

They can't even read rules or signs, yet they stayed left of the dividing line. :)


:lol:
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:37 pm

It was a sight alright! Herd of goats moving at glacial speed followed by a drenched and cold guy in muddy gear and even more dirty bike hollering at these goats to keep moving! :lol: Made up for the miserable rainy weather. :)

Mehhhh....
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby biker jk » Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:42 pm

warthog1 wrote:
blkmcs wrote:
If you are suggesting that pedestrians should follow the same rules on the shared paths then clearly all pedestrians should walk on the right facing oncoming bicycles.

Extrapolating walking on the right to riding a bike on the right is plainly ridiculous and adds nothing of value to the discussion.


No I was suggesting pedestrians on shared paths are similar to bicycles on the road, they are the slower moving mode of transport.
I don't know about you but I don't regularly see pedestrians on the road, that's why I didn't use that as an analogy.

In any case the very fact that I am discussing this on a cycling forum with a cyclist, who as I read it advocates pedestrians walk on the right hand side of a shared pathway, confirms that shared pathways as a concept are a dismal failure. I'll continue to stay well away from them.


Your last sentence is indeed a sensible conclusion. I used to ride the Cooks River Cycleway (Sydney) quite regularly many years ago and the chaos created by pedestrians (walking three abreast, walking on the wrong side, stopping in the middle of the path, listening to music and oblivious to the world, dogs not on leashes, etc.) was a nightmare. The local councils did try to educate by installing signs advising pedestrians to keep left, etc. but these were ignored. So now the signs focus on instructing cyclists to give way to pedestrians and suggest the Cooks River Cycleway isn't really suitable for commuting.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Hergest » Sat Jun 29, 2013 2:54 pm

g-boaf wrote:Around and around it goes...

Meanwhile I'd like to praise some 20 or so excellent pedestrians on the shared path between Reconciliation Road and Prospect Dam. They stayed obediently to the left of the path, not straying over the centre line at all.

What was so special about them? They were a herd of goats! :shock: :lol: If it weren't pouring down, I'd have taking photos of them.

They can't even read rules or signs, yet they stayed left of the dividing line. :)



How about that? You can often spot one or two high up on the slopes of the old quarry but i've never seen any down by the path and certainly not in the number you came across.

I salute your keenness going out in this run of weather.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby ldrcycles » Sat Jun 29, 2013 6:50 pm

Hergest wrote: You can often spot one or two high up on the slopes


High on a hill was a lonely goat etc :lol: .

And fingy, I bet that gave your heart rate a decent spike, why would anyone try something like that through there, no visibility at all!
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Sat Jun 29, 2013 7:04 pm

Hergest wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Around and around it goes...

Meanwhile I'd like to praise some 20 or so excellent pedestrians on the shared path between Reconciliation Road and Prospect Dam. They stayed obediently to the left of the path, not straying over the centre line at all.

What was so special about them? They were a herd of goats! :shock: :lol: If it weren't pouring down, I'd have taking photos of them.

They can't even read rules or signs, yet they stayed left of the dividing line. :)



How about that? You can often spot one or two high up on the slopes of the old quarry but i've never seen any down by the path and certainly not in the number you came across.

I salute your keenness going out in this run of weather.


I'm not feeling so keen now. Sniffles and sore throat. :( dosing up on Vitamin C and keeping warm. If it weren't for the slowing down (6km/h) when going through big puddles of water I reckon I'd have set a few PRs today.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby mattwilkinson » Sat Jun 29, 2013 11:01 pm



dumb cyclist? wow.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:08 am

Looks like Russia - and if so it is probably a setup.

Like those car chases in the Russian traffic are promo videos to get their drivers stunt driving jobs in movies...

Anyone going to send this video through to Duncan Gay MP and NRMA? :twisted: I want to see the original video in original context, rather than what looks like a re-post on YouTube to frame it in a different context.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Biffidus » Sun Jun 30, 2013 9:22 am

ColinOldnCranky wrote:Yeah, no problem at all. IF cyclists approaching from behind DO ride slowly behind you until a gap appears. The problem peds face many times each walk is the rider that simply times his motion to slide between them and another oncoming rider or oncoming ped.

I can only speak for my own experience and I find that the peds walking towards me are far more disruptive (and far more likely to unexpectedly step in front of a cyclist coming up from behind them as someone else suggested) than those walking on the left. I find the best way to deter close shaves is to carry a large umbrella :)
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