The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby human909 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 9:43 am

Gordonhooker wrote:I can assure you this was not a case of rolling a stop sign - this group just rode on through without any attempt to stop

If they looked properly and it was clear then I don't see a big deal. If they didn't look then that sounds suicidal.

Gordonhooker wrote:and we are all judged on this type of behaviour.

Just like motorists are all judged based on the bad eggs? Seriously, lets drop this furphy.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Gordonhooker » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:09 am

It is not a furphy at all it is a point that we as cyclist all need to address. I am simply saying it goes both ways - we complain about not getting the respect we should be getting from motorists and lizard brain motorists complain about us not doing the right thing. If you want change it starts with you, me and everyone else that rides bicycles on the road and expect to be treated as any other vehicle on the road.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby jcjordan » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:31 am

Gordonhooker wrote:It is not a furphy at all it is a point that we as cyclist all need to address. I am simply saying it goes both ways - we complain about not getting the respect we should be getting from motorists and lizard brain motorists complain about us not doing the right thing. If you want change it starts with you, me and everyone else that rides bicycles on the road and expect to be treated as any other vehicle on the road.


I am with Gordon on this one.

As for it not being of any harm to blow a stop sign 909 would you say the same if was a motorist?

If we want equal rights to the road than we need to obey the law, if not then we have no right to complain when others also break the law.

If we think a law is wrong or inadequate then we have the right to have it changed as you are doing in Queensland and the passing distance requirements to a fixed distance.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:34 am

Motorists seem to be able to run red lights and nobody calls every other law abiding motorist a red-light-runner.

Gordonhooker wrote:It is not a furphy at all it is a point that we as cyclist all need to address. I am simply saying it goes both ways - we complain about not getting the respect we should be getting from motorists and lizard brain motorists complain about us not doing the right thing. If you want change it starts with you, me and everyone else that rides bicycles on the road and expect to be treated as any other vehicle on the road.


I obey the law and do stop at red lights, all the time. Do you? Or maybe I'll put it another way, you've never ran any orange or red lights, ever?

And what do you do if the light NEVER changes. A week or so back I waited over 5 minutes for a light that never changed (despite many full light change sequences for all cars). I could have waited 30 minutes, and it still wouldn't have changed because clearly something had gone wrong with it.

According to opinions above, my crossing further down the road on foot was against the law and I should be in prison and the keys thrown away because of my terrible crime. Or perhaps I should have simply waited forever. :roll:
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby human909 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:39 am

jcjordan wrote:As for it not being of any harm to blow a stop sign 909 would you say the same if was a motorist?

I have no problems if a motorist looks properly, decides that it is safe and then proceeds. Whether actual stop occurs is a legal technicality not a safety one.

jcjordan wrote:If we want equal rights to the road than we need to obey the law

Totally untrue. Besides I don't want equal rights to the road. Cyclists and motorists are not equal and they never will be.

jcjordan wrote:if not then we have no right to complain when others also break the law.

An absurd assertion.


But this argument has been done before so I won't continue it here. The only reason I commented on the stop sign issue is because the infraction is so extremely innocuous especially on a bike. The true purpose of a stop sign is to ensure that you actually look properly, the need to stop is a means to the end and not the end in of itself.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Scarfy96 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:43 am

When riding with a group it is not uncommon for the first pair to approach the stop sign and slow down and check and if all clear then call CLEAR for the rest of the group, the rest of the group then rolls through (also checking and passing on the clear call - or "car right" or whatever). The whole group really is just one big vehicle like that, first ones are the eyes, check the intersection and make the call. I have no issue with that.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby DarrylH » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:46 am

Stop signs are generally there for a reason - otherwise they would be Give Way signs. The motorist who slows slightly and has a look before proceeding is probably the one who will miss seeing a bike.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby human909 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:54 am

DarrylH wrote:Stop signs are generally there for a reason - otherwise they would be Give Way signs. The motorist who slows slightly and has a look before proceeding is probably the one who will miss seeing a bike.


In my experience this is not true. I know of many stop signs where sign lines are perfect and stops are unnecessary for safety. I also know of quite a few give way signs where sign lines are poor and stopping is almost essential.

I must say in the car or on the bike I don't make a distinction between stop signs, give way signs or roundabouts. I will not proceed until I have determined it is safe and I give way to other vehicles as required. Often in the course of me determining whether it is safe or not my vehicle may come to a stop.


(I've been in two accidents where my car was written off. Both involved other cars going through STOP signs without giving way to me. In one case the car did stop. The other case the taxi driver blew the sign at speed without even looking and hit me in my drivers door!)
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby tekapo » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:24 am

Scarfy96 wrote:When riding with a group it is not uncommon for the first pair to approach the stop sign and slow down and check and if all clear then call CLEAR for the rest of the group, the rest of the group then rolls through (also checking and passing on the clear call - or "car right" or whatever). The whole group really is just one big vehicle like that, first ones are the eyes, check the intersection and make the call. I have no issue with that.


Mmm.. so if I am driving behind a friend, as long as the friend slows down and gives the all clear, I can just drive right through the stop sign?
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby human909 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:11 pm

tekapo wrote:Mmm.. so if I am driving behind a friend, as long as the friend slows down and gives the all clear, I can just drive right through the stop sign?

Surely you can decide yourself if such action is safe. As far as legalities go, the law is quite clear.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Tue Oct 08, 2013 12:23 pm

tekapo wrote:
Scarfy96 wrote:When riding with a group it is not uncommon for the first pair to approach the stop sign and slow down and check and if all clear then call CLEAR for the rest of the group, the rest of the group then rolls through (also checking and passing on the clear call - or "car right" or whatever). The whole group really is just one big vehicle like that, first ones are the eyes, check the intersection and make the call. I have no issue with that.


Mmm.. so if I am driving behind a friend, as long as the friend slows down and gives the all clear, I can just drive right through the stop sign?


oh my gosh, so many baited replies and scenarios. :lol:

I propose that each group rider stops individually at a stop sign, in the middle of the lane (to prevent being close-shaved or run off the road) and carefully checks in all directions before going, as they are required to.

And I also propose that car drivers shall be patient and compliant with the bicycle rider(s) while they do this and not blow horns, make rude gestures or use obscene language.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Scarfy96 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 1:08 pm

I think there was 22 in our group on Saturday, so 11 pairs each one stopping and checking would really string out the group!

Alternatively front pair pull away from group as it slows (call) and front pair approach intersection. Roll to a near stop, have a good look, call clear and keep going, group has caught up to them by then and roll through, each one checking as they enter the intersection and calling clear for the next pair as they are entering. All pass through safely.

On the odd occasion a car did appear half way through the group one pair would call "car right" and the ones behind would call "stopping" and give way, then proceed resulting in the group breaking into 2 but that quickly re-forms.

Sometimes you just have to use common sense and having 11 pairs stop isn't that!
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby tekapo » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:02 pm

Scarfy96 wrote:Sometimes you just have to use common sense and having 11 pairs stop isn't that!


But unless there is some provision in the law that allows this, you are still breaking the law, even if it might be "commonsense".

My question is there must be times when you have to stop at a stop sign due to traffic. Why can't you do the exact same thing even if there is no traffic, and perhaps instead of a full stop, just a rolling stop for everyone and not just the lead two.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Scarfy96 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:18 pm

"Rolling stop" is breaking the law, so if you are so hell bent on not breaking the law then why suggest breaking the law?

Each pair is calling the intersection for the next pair, so no-one is riding through without looking or creating an unsafe situation, each pair checks and if clear calls it is clear, if not calls the car left or right and the next pair stop. It is usually done at fairly slow speed.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Gordonhooker » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:39 pm

from the Queensland Road Rules:

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/safety/queens ... rules.aspx

A 'stop' sign means that all wheels of your vehicle must come to a complete halt.

All the spin about how long it takes a group to get through the stop sign is irrelevant it is plain and simply breaking the law.

If we have more and more cyclists, motorists and pedestrians making decisions about when the law should or should not be adhered to - then heaven help the rest of us.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Lukeyboy » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:41 pm

Bunny hop and grab the brakes. Problem solved.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby tekapo » Tue Oct 08, 2013 2:46 pm

Scarfy96 wrote:"Rolling stop" is breaking the law, so if you are so hell bent on not breaking the law then why suggest breaking the law?


Scarfy96 wrote:When riding with a group it is not uncommon for the first pair to approach the stop sign and slow down and check and if all clear then call CLEAR for the rest of the group, the rest of the group then rolls through (also checking and passing on the clear call - or "car right" or whatever). The whole group really is just one big vehicle like that, first ones are the eyes, check the intersection and make the call. I have no issue with that.


You originally stated that the rest of the group just rolls through no mention of slowing down beside the first pair.

Scarfy96 wrote:Alternatively front pair pull away from group as it slows (call) and front pair approach intersection. Roll to a near stop, have a good look, call clear and keep going, group has caught up to them by then and roll through, each one checking as they enter the intersection and calling clear for the next pair as they are entering. All pass through safely.


Again, the front pair pulls away then slows at the intersection. No mention of the group actually attempt to slow down, and no where near a rolling stop.

As to the definition of rolling stop, at least my definition of it is that I slow down to something slower than walking pace so I can keep my balance without putting the foot down.
Last edited by tekapo on Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby hannos » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:17 pm

A bunch is not a single entity as far as the Law is concerned. If there is a stop sign, each and every member of the bunch is required by Law to stop.

All i'm seeing is: "It's OK because I said it was safe"
Well I think doing 41 in a 40 zone is safe too so it must be OK, right?
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Scarfy96 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 3:50 pm

And so starts the holier than thou brigade. :roll:

Go for a bunch ride of 20+ and then get back to me about the logistics of managing said group in the safest fashion for all road users.

My apologies if I didn't make myself clear enough re the entire process in my first post. Rolling at walking pace however is not a "stop" so as I said if you are trying to justify something then you are just redefining the law but are still at fault as well. "Nearly stopping" isn't stopping - just ask a police officer. So front pair "almost stop" - ie don't unclip and put their foot down - unless there is a car, then they stop and call it - if it is clear they then roll through calling clear, rest follow through - not at walking pace but slow because if you have to stop and you have a guy 1m behind you you don't want to be doing 30km/hr - that is carnage, so it is a slow roll through said intersection with each pair checking and calling out for the others.

I know that won't satisfy the holier than thou brigade but that's life. I promise I wont judge you next time you slip off your pedestal.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby il padrone » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:18 pm

Gordonhooker wrote:from the Queensland Road Rules:

http://www.tmr.qld.gov.au/safety/queens ... rules.aspx


258 Equipment on a bicycle
A person must not ride a bicycle that does not have—
(a) at least 1 effective brake; and
(b) a bell, horn or similar warning device in working order.


By crikey, I certainly hope you have that bell on your bike. And that you never cross any double or single solid dividing lines while riding or turning (Rule 132).


:o


Go to Italy and see how stop signs work..... and I'm talking about the cars. Yet we always felt a good deal safer on their roads than here in Australia. In quite a few ways rule-pedantism can be a road safety negative, if the attitude towards real safety is not there.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:46 pm

il padrone wrote:In quite a few ways rule-pedantism can be a road safety negative, if the attitude towards real safety is not there.

This.

Unfortunately, too many believe the Govt spouted mantra that if you follow the rules religiously then all will be well. ie Thick fog but I'm doing 58/60 so I'm being a safe driver...
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby hannos » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:51 pm

Mulger bill wrote:
il padrone wrote:In quite a few ways rule-pedantism can be a road safety negative, if the attitude towards real safety is not there.

This.

Unfortunately, too many believe the Govt spouted mantra that if you follow the rules religiously then all will be well. ie Thick fog but I'm doing 58/60 so I'm being a safe driver...


Nope. Being a rule pedant, you are required to drive to the conditions. 58 in a 60 in thick fog is not driving to the conditions.
As for the driver attitudes in Italy, I would expect them to be vastly different to here in Australia so that's comparing apples and oranges.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby g-boaf » Tue Oct 08, 2013 4:52 pm

Scarfy96 wrote:And so starts the holier than thou brigade. :roll:


Oh I'm enjoying the pedants debating the minutiae of rules and stopping, etc.

Care for some pop-corn?
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby il padrone » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:13 pm

hannos wrote:Nope. Being a rule pedant, you are required to drive to the conditions. 58 in a 60 in thick fog is not driving to the conditions.
As for the driver attitudes in Italy, I would expect them to be vastly different to here in Australia so that's comparing apples and oranges.

These sort of driving conditions are pretty normal in a lot of Italian towns, especially if you're driving/cycling at about 5-6pm (end of the siesta). If you play rule-pedantism you don't survive :wink:

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No. 1 rule - don't hit anybody. No. 2 rule - keep moving to where you want to go. No. 3 rule - if a pedestrian (or cyclist) walks out in frnt of you, you STOP.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby human909 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 5:15 pm

hannos wrote:As for the driver attitudes in Italy, I would expect them to be vastly different to here in Australia so that's comparing apples and oranges.


Yes. In Italy road user attitudes towards rules are less pedantry and more concerned about safety and common sense. :mrgreen:
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