The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby wellington_street » Mon Jan 20, 2014 3:22 pm

Thanks guys, much clearer now. Haven't ridden that path before.
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by BNA » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:03 pm

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Dragster1 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:03 pm

wellington_street wrote:Thanks guys, much clearer now. Haven't ridden that path before.

as it snakes around the river near the ferry terminal under north quay, it is a shared path and this is where most of the problems are. Well for me anyway it's like dodge the pedo that just walks where ever they feel
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Lukeyboy » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:17 pm

I had to dodge a tree along that bit near the QUT last year. Flying along, position myself and about to lean over to the left for the corner and there's a big ass tree across the path. Ended up grabbing the brakes and going straight off. Luckily I didn't end up in the river :P They need to remove that pinch point or atleast move it somewhere where there's better visibility. Heading westbound you can spot what's coming but eastbound your vision is impaired. Peds there are the worst though.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Dragster1 » Mon Jan 20, 2014 5:43 pm

Lukeyboy wrote:I had to dodge a tree along that bit near the QUT last year. Flying along, position myself and about to lean over to the left for the corner and there's a big ass tree across the path. Ended up grabbing the brakes and going straight off. Luckily I didn't end up in the river :P They need to remove that pinch point or atleast move it somewhere where there's better visibility. Heading westbound you can spot what's coming but eastbound your vision is impaired. Peds there are the worst though.

Yep! the pinch point,no hand rail or anything and they all want to walk on the wall edge thinking they are going to fall in the drink and get confused at the last minute to which side they should walk on
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Summernight » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:00 am

wellington_street wrote:
nezumi wrote:Not neccesarily dumb cyclists, but several anti-social ones on my commute home today.

Crossing Victoria St onto Nicholson St at Richmond, I was first at the lights. I then had a girl on a MTB roll up my left (on the pedestrian area) and jump in front of me, in the pedestrian crossing and on the kerb. I look back and there are about 7 other cyclists behind me, waiting in line.

Lights go green and she meanders through the intersection. I pass her before we are halfway across the street.


This sort of thing seems to happen whenever cyclists are stopped at lights long enough to start a queue. On my usual routes, everyone generally stays in line, but there's always the odd impatient moron who wants to make things difficult and try to overtake through an intersection or jump in front of the queue and then force others to do the same.


I have no problem with people moving to the front and filling the bike box (while waiting for the lights to go green) where there is a bike box instead of staying in a line beside a car that might just turn left over you at the lights (with or without an indicator). If I see a car indicating to turn left in front of me waiting at the lights, a bicycle queue going beside and behind this left turning car in the bicycle lane and an unoccupied bike box beside the first rider I see absolutely no problems in carefully filtering up and on the right of the left indicating car and moving into the bike box where the cars can actually see me. Call me selfish, but I'm doing it more for my safety and to be seen.

When I stop at lights and am the first in the queue at the bike box I deliberately move further right into the centre of the box in order to allow any subsequent cyclists coming up behind me (in what are usually quite tight bicycle lanes) the opportunity to get into the bike box on my left or right (and to tell any cars that may be waiting behind me that they can't drive over the top of me).

I also move around to allow more cyclists into the bike box if the situation arises.

If someone is faster than me I would expect that they overtake me when safe, and the safest way to overtake me may be by coming up beside me and waiting in a bike box at the lights.

So I don't have as big an issue with people cutting queues if they are doing it respectfully and don't block the people they have just passed when the lights turn green.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby cp123 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 10:35 am

The other night I was riding home in 41 degrees It was hot and I was pacing myself (read – going steadily enough not to cark it on the way). I was going south along Commonwealth Avenue Canberra towards the lights near the croquet club corner and it was windy and there were lots of cars in the lanes on my right. I assume – because I don’t know – or otherwise this person must've been having a reeeally bad day - that she’d been trying to pass me from behind. Within 100 or so metres towards that corner the bike lane is reasonably narrow and unless you’re almost clicking handlebars its probably comfortable enough only for 1 rider wide - especially if its someone i don't know or don't feel comfortable riding next to. Suddenly I hear this loud and aggressive ONYERIGHT!!!!! And less than half a second later she’s whooshing past me giving me the death stare :shock: . I looked at her with a fairly shocked response and said “ok I hear you”. And she said something that sounded pretty annoyed although I didn’t hear what it actually was.

She rode in front of me and turned back and said something again (that I didn’t hear over the wind and traffic noise ). Then she turned back and yelled again “you made me right out into the traffic!”. That was when I realised she was dirty at me and I replied calmly that “I didn’t know you were behind me, and of course you could’ve taken the option to slow and only pass me when you felt it safe…” I assume she heard as she went off at me again then looked forward and took off. I honestly had no idea that she was behind me, and how long she might’ve been there. I couldn’t hear through a headwind and she certainly didn’t give me any other warning to let me know she was there. :roll:

So she rode off really aggressively, but it lasted about 10 feet but she didn’t actually get away from me. We passed through the lights there on a green and she kept on looking back every 10 or 15 pedal strokes to see if I was still coming. I was still sitting only about a bike length or 2 behind her the whole way up and through the tunnel and I certainly wasn’t chasing her down. She looked back again over her right shoulder at the off ramp to st Andrews cathedral at Canberra ave and as she did she pulled her bike so far to the right it went almost into the left traffic lane and a car just behind her braked suddenly to miss her. The only reason she got away from me in the end was I stopped for oncoming cars at the canb avenue on ramp.

I have no idea who she was. She was a tiny built girl with brown curly hair on a flat bar roadie and had a blue and grey helmet, yellow sleeveless jersey on and a black panier on each side. I have no idea what was up her nose that day either. If she called once or twice I seriously didn’t hear it. Sometimes I don’t hear people and they pass and most say hi whenever they do. but if I’m not a mindreader I have no obligation to get out of her way. She had the choice to wait until either we got to the lights, or the green bit widened up after the lights but she didn’t. she CHOSE to ride into the traffic.

There could've been dirt, glass, debris or anything in the lane i was in and I don't have to squoosh myself in the gutter for the benefit of others. Surely it is up to anyone overtaking to wait and only do so when it is safe for them to move over to pass. It happens to me occasionally that I have to move into the car lane to overtake someone and I always thought it was my responsibility to do it safely. If there isn’t a gap in the traffic that allows me to move over, then I wait a bit. That’s what I’d expect of a car overtaking me, so I think it’s not unreasonable to expect cyclists to do the same.

I'm VERY conscious that I'm slower than the young and fast lads and always sit to the left of a green killing zone, and allow everyone to pass me where possible. Usually the fast lads at least call out loud enough that i can hear them coming, or say "nah - you're right love" when I mumble sorry if i think i've held them up.

Let's see if she's out there again tonight and what her reaction will be this time.... I'll just stay on my own cruise control and smile and nod. Perhaps I should ride even wider in my lane still... :twisted:
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The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby herzog » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:33 am


This sort of thing seems to happen whenever cyclists are stopped at lights long enough to start a queue. On my usual routes, everyone generally stays in line, but there's always the odd impatient moron who wants to make things difficult and try to overtake through an intersection or jump in front of the queue and then force others to do the same.


There's actually a word for this behaviour - it's known as "shoaling".

It's pretty common on my commute in Sydney


Article on Shoaling
http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com.au/2009 ... e.html?m=1
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Aushiker » Tue Jan 21, 2014 11:55 am

Summernight wrote:If I see a car indicating to turn left in front of me waiting at the lights, a bicycle queue going beside and behind this left turning car in the bicycle lane and an unoccupied bike box beside the first rider I see absolutely no problems in carefully filtering up and on the right of the left indicating car and moving into the bike box where the cars can actually see me. Call me selfish, but I'm doing it more for my safety and to be seen.


In WA that is illegal, passing a left turning or apparently left turning vehicle on its left.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby wellington_street » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:00 pm

herzog wrote:

This sort of thing seems to happen whenever cyclists are stopped at lights long enough to start a queue. On my usual routes, everyone generally stays in line, but there's always the odd impatient moron who wants to make things difficult and try to overtake through an intersection or jump in front of the queue and then force others to do the same.


There's actually a word for this behaviour - it's known as "shoaling".

It's pretty common on my commute in Sydney


Article on Shoaling
http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com.au/2009 ... e.html?m=1


Thanks! Just so unnecessary, especially when you're say 5th in line on a narrow path approaching a road crossing and the idiot will either try to push his way in front and get stuck, or will try and take a short cut around the traffic islands. One spot I have in mind is Thomas St/Railway Pde in West Perth - it's a difficult crossing to negotiate at the best of times due to the island and tight curve but add in people trying to cut around the island and push in on the path it's just retarded.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby nezumi » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:16 pm

Aushiker wrote:
Summernight wrote:If I see a car indicating to turn left in front of me waiting at the lights, a bicycle queue going beside and behind this left turning car in the bicycle lane and an unoccupied bike box beside the first rider I see absolutely no problems in carefully filtering up and on the right of the left indicating car and moving into the bike box where the cars can actually see me. Call me selfish, but I'm doing it more for my safety and to be seen.


In WA that is illegal, passing a left turning or apparently left turning vehicle on its left.

Andrew


In Summerknight's example, I interpret the situation to be the cars are stopped at the lights, no one moving. In Victoria, the law is that you cannot pass (on the left) a vehicle which is both indicating left and in the process of turning left.

Beyond that, she specified that she was passing the car on it's right
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Aushiker » Tue Jan 21, 2014 12:45 pm

nezumi wrote:Beyond that, she specified that she was passing the car on it's right

Missed that.

BTW the WA rule is different to Victoria's and other states, which is why I mentioned specifically it was a WA rule and vehicles stopped appears to makes no difference under the WA regulation.

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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Summernight » Tue Jan 21, 2014 1:07 pm

nezumi wrote:
Aushiker wrote:
Summernight wrote:If I see a car indicating to turn left in front of me waiting at the lights, a bicycle queue going beside and behind this left turning car in the bicycle lane and an unoccupied bike box beside the first rider I see absolutely no problems in carefully filtering up and on the right of the left indicating car and moving into the bike box where the cars can actually see me. Call me selfish, but I'm doing it more for my safety and to be seen.


In WA that is illegal, passing a left turning or apparently left turning vehicle on its left.

Andrew


In Summerknight's example, I interpret the situation to be the cars are stopped at the lights, no one moving. In Victoria, the law is that you cannot pass (on the left) a vehicle which is both indicating left and in the process of turning left.

Beyond that, she specified that she was passing the car on it's right


Nezumi is correct - I pass left indicating/turning vehicles on the right (or slow down and wait) and in the situation I was referring to everyone was waiting at a red light.

So many of the cyclists I've seen in the queues in the bicycle lane (which, as we know, is usually on the left of the cars) don't understand this law and will continue to pass the car as it moves off on the green and attempts to turn left, even if they were behind it at the time of movement. Given the bicycle lane doesn't continue through the intersection in the situation I am referring to, the bikes should be giving way to the left turning car, but a lot of the cyclists don't understand this, continue to follow the cyclist in front and act like sheep and cause everyone angst and stress.

I had an interesting situation a while back where a motorist was in front of me on my right (I was in a bike lane waiting in a queue of cyclists) and the motorist was indicating to turn left. The light changed to green and I waited for him to turn left in front of me as I was behind him at the lights. As he was in the process of turning left a cyclist undertakes me on the left and burns through the intersection and undertakes the left turning vehicle. It was just stupid and dangerous behaviour from the cyclist and was begging for a left hook.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby tekapo » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:48 pm

Summernight wrote:So many of the cyclists I've seen in the queues in the bicycle lane (which, as we know, is usually on the left of the cars) don't understand this law


I don't think you need a "law" for this. Wouldn't it be commonsense???

Hey the car in front is turning left, lets make sure the bike is right in its path.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby nezumi » Tue Jan 21, 2014 2:56 pm

tekapo wrote:
Summernight wrote:So many of the cyclists I've seen in the queues in the bicycle lane (which, as we know, is usually on the left of the cars) don't understand this law


I don't think you need a "law" for this. Wouldn't it be commonsense???

Hey the car in front is turning left, lets make sure the bike is right in its path.


The trouble arises when the bike line exists through the intersection - e.g. at a T intersection, where the road is off to the cyclist's left. In that instance the bike lane is a Lane, and the car must merge into it safely to make a turn, not just turn across the path of users of the lane.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby wellington_street » Tue Jan 21, 2014 3:42 pm

Doesn't help when the roads authorities clearly don't understand the road rules and put in markings like this:
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby tekapo » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:10 pm

wellington_street wrote:Doesn't help when the roads authorities clearly don't understand the road rules and put in markings like this:


Yes, but if the car is in front, indicating and already turning, even if you are also a car, wouldn't you just give way, especially when you are the slower vehicle? Obviously the car in front needs to be careful when merging as well. But still, I would have thought it obvious to give way as oppose trying to make a run and beat the turning car. It is good that this is actually a law, but people should have the commonsense and not need this to be spelt out for them.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby human909 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 4:21 pm

tekapo wrote:Yes, but if the car is in front, indicating and already turning, even if you are also a car, wouldn't you just give way, especially when you are the slower vehicle? Obviously the car in front needs to be careful when merging as well. But still, I would have thought it obvious to give way as oppose trying to make a run and beat the turning car. It is good that this is actually a law, but people should have the commonsense and not need this to be spelt out for them.


Common sense and the law says that you should be turning from as far left as practical. What you are suggesting here is for continuing bicycle traffic to be yielding to turning traffic. This is absurd and contrary to basic road rules.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby tekapo » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:10 pm

human909 wrote:
tekapo wrote:Yes, but if the car is in front, indicating and already turning, even if you are also a car, wouldn't you just give way, especially when you are the slower vehicle? Obviously the car in front needs to be careful when merging as well. But still, I would have thought it obvious to give way as oppose trying to make a run and beat the turning car. It is good that this is actually a law, but people should have the commonsense and not need this to be spelt out for them.


Common sense and the law says that you should be turning from as far left as practical. What you are suggesting here is for continuing bicycle traffic to be yielding to turning traffic. This is absurd and contrary to basic road rules.


I think you might be missing my point. If the car ahead is indicating and ALREADY turning into your path, wouldn't you give way? My view is its commonsense just to give way,

As to the law, from some posts above it appears in Vic and WA, you suppose to give way and not pass.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby human909 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:22 pm

tekapo wrote:I think you might be missing my point. If the car ahead is indicating and ALREADY turning into your path, wouldn't you give way? My view is its commonsense just to give way,

Of course you slow/stop if the alternative is a collision. I've slowed/stopped to avoid cars running red lights and cars right hooking me.

tekapo wrote:As to the law, from some posts above it appears in Vic and WA, you suppose to give way and not pass.

Not in a continuing bike lane.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby tekapo » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:39 pm

human909 wrote:
tekapo wrote:As to the law, from some posts above it appears in Vic and WA, you suppose to give way and not pass.

Not in a continuing bike lane.


This is getting messier.

So the give way only applies to those who filters, but not all the way to the front?

If the bike lane ends before the intersection. The ones that filters to the front, or to the box don't give way as they are at the front. The ones that take the whole lane don't give way, as they have the lane. Therefore how does the law get applied?
Last edited by tekapo on Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Dragster1 » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:40 pm

human909 wrote:
tekapo wrote:I think you might be missing my point. If the car ahead is indicating and ALREADY turning into your path, wouldn't you give way? My view is its commonsense just to give way,

Of course you slow/stop if the alternative is a collision. I've slowed/stopped to avoid cars running red lights and cars right hooking me.

tekapo wrote:As to the law, from some posts above it appears in Vic and WA, you suppose to give way and not pass.

Not in a continuing bike lane.

The car must give way in this situation. If some bicyclists are going to give way it's going to cause dramas. They will think most bicyclists are going to do it and eventually cut one off and hit them. You need to follow the road rules !!
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby wellington_street » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:27 pm

Best approaches, imo: (after a lengthy thread on this last year)

As a car driver: If you're turning left, merge into the bike lane before the junction to make sure cyclists know your intention and prevent anyone from getting themselves into a left hook position.

As a cyclist: Filter to the front of stationary traffic but if you are behind someone moving with their left indicator on, hang back and don't pass.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Jan 21, 2014 7:51 pm

wellington_street wrote:Best approaches, imo: (after a lengthy thread on this last year)

As a car driver: If you're turning left, merge into the bike lane before the junction to make sure cyclists know your intention and prevent anyone from getting themselves into a left hook position.

As a cyclist: Filter to the front of stationary traffic but if you are behind someone moving with their left indicator on, hang back and don't pass.

Too simple and logical, it'll never work :(
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby nezumi » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:01 pm

human909 wrote:
tekapo wrote:As to the law, from some posts above it appears in Vic and WA, you suppose to give way and not pass.

Not in a continuing bike lane.


The bike lane does not continue through that intersection. If it did, it would have two sets of dashed lines all the way through.
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Re: The Dumb Cyclists and Pedestrians thread...

Postby tekapo » Tue Jan 21, 2014 8:40 pm

cp123 wrote:The other night I was riding home in 41 degrees


Man, I don't think I could have ridden any distance in the heat last week. It felt like a heater blowing hot air towards me during the 1k ride for lunch. I am pretty sure I would have been even slower than you just to keep the wind slow.

As to the overtaking, the girl needs to judge when it is safe to overtake. She knows your relative positions and speeds, she should have good visibility of the road ahead, and any traffic to the right if she is contemplating an over take. So if you kept your line and speed, not sure what else is there for you to do.
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