Cyclist killed on M4 motorway - Update on driver charges

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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby Nobody » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:19 am

My wife was on the M4 yesterday before the crash.

She said the truck was doing about 10 over the speed limit in a 110Km/h zone. It was windy and the truck was having trouble staying within the lane.

She was also caught up in the road closure.
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby mianos » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:26 am

re cycling on the M5. The side lane in the M5 is a combined cycling lane and breakdown lane. It's got bicycles painted all along it.
If you see any glass / rubbish on the cycling lane you can email them and they will sweep it up. They seem to be very helpful, most unlike the RTA.
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby wombatK » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:31 am

Trucker wrote:And to also add you can't beleive wat the news says because they have givin incorrect details of the events in which both m7 and m4 accidents took place.. You got to remember they twist and turn stories to sell news papers etc to make money .. Think if u were the one they were dumping s*** on on national news and u couldn't do a thing about it when they don't even know wat happened! It's wrong

Well why don't you tell us exactly what happened ? If you have an alternative explanation, then put up or shut up.
nobody wrote:My wife was on the M4 yesterday before the crash.

She said the truck was doing about 10 over the speed limit in a 110Km/h zone. It was windy and the truck was having trouble staying within the lane.

Two offences there. If she hasn't already, she should make sure she gives this evidence to the police.
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby Vipul » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:34 am

Trucker - Douchebaggery at its finest!
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby hannos » Sun Apr 11, 2010 8:43 am

Trucker wrote:And in reply to wombat for starters u don't have a clue wat happened in either accident... If u must know that driver on m7 did pull over to take a call but then pulled out in front of the truck causing the collision...


hey Trucker, the police say otherwise...

See here

The head of the police Crash Investigation Squad, Senior Sergeant Peter Jenkins, said the two accidents bore striking similarities. ''In both cases the trucks involved were tippers with dog trailers veering into the breakdown lane,'' he said.


You see, I'm inclined to take the word of the police over your unsupported claims.
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby Fastlane » Sun Apr 11, 2010 9:53 am

<mod edit> Post deleted as it does not follow forum guidelines.</mod edit>

All,

This thread is sailing close to the wind on many fronts. Simon has said it and I'm backing him.

Keep it clean and within forum guidelines, or this thread will be locked.

Kev.

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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby xavdav » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:02 am

<Mod edit> post deleted</mod edit>

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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby jules21 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:15 am

Trucker wrote:For starters I know drivers of both m7 and m4 personally and the media is quick to make their own assumptions on wat happened because everybody seems to wanna be a know it all when they don't have a clue and by the time the CCTV footage and witness statements have been taken the media has already slaughtered the name and reputation if the driver and company and they don't come back in the news in a few weeks time and say oh sorry we were wrong he wasn't at fault it was the the other persons fault because they did the wrong thing!

both crashes are suspected of being caused by dozing truck drivers, driving for the same company. the company reputation should be the least of their worries right now, getting a good lawyer would be higher in my order of priorities if i were them.
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby jules21 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:24 am

Fastlane wrote:It is time large trucks and trailers were taken off Sydneys roads. There is no place for them on busy roads and they do far more damage to road surfaces and other road users than they contribute. Smaller trucks and more managable loads are needed and these cowboy firms should be forced to change their aggressive cultures, forcibly if need be for the common good.

there's no reason why trucks are a danger to cyclists. the exact same result would have occurred had the driver been in a car.

what's dangerous is trucking companies who encourage their drivers to work crazy hours, until they fall asleep and kill other road users. what's infuriating is the attitudes of truckers like Trucker here, who if he works in the industry - knows it happens let just can't get his pea brain around the concept of accepting the blame for anything. there's a culture in the trucking industry amongst at least some its brain dead members that "trucks move Australia", they are all self annointed national heroes and that if anything goes wrong, it must be some other #$*%&$'s fault because trucks are indispensable.
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby Boognoss » Sun Apr 11, 2010 10:43 am

While I agree with much of the sentiment here regarding some professional drivers and some logistics companies I think we need to sit back, take a breath and remember to argue the point and not the person.

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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby zozza » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:26 am

Trucker wrote: Content that has been removed



Tool :shock: (at Truckers comments)

Good call Boogs :)
Last edited by zozza on Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:33 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby Boognoss » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:28 am

Sorry Zozza, edited your post as the content you quoted has just been exterminated. It wasn't in the spirit of the forum guidelines.

To Trucker, tone it down or you will be banned.
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby Rockford » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:31 am

Your posting to a forum, your IP address can be linked to your internet account and back to you, and you've just made a very public threat to cause injury. You might want to retract your statements or edit your post.

Let's not turn this into a slanging match from either perspective, someone has lost their life, a wife has lost a husband, kids have lost a dad.

BTW there are reports of another cyclist being hit on the Mulgoa Rd exit just up from yesterdays accident. (report on the radio)
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby kibnedyo » Sun Apr 11, 2010 11:57 am

I am much saddened at how the vitriole has been thrown about in this thread.

One of the things that keeps me here was the call for calm and to refrain from speculation and blaming to allow people directly involved to grieve. Thankfully the thread did appear to calm down until ....

Am I the only one to not appreciate Truckers vitriolic hijack and our equally nasty response. Sure it is natural to try work out why event occur but a public slanging match, which any forum on the Internet must be considered to be, is not appropriate in any way.

What would be more appropriate at this time is for all of us to take a moment to reflect on our own behaviours as cyclists, drivers pedestrians and above all human beings to ensure the safety of ALLroad users.

What scares me most of all behind the threats and slanging is the hidden messages that it's not going to change individual behaviour or opinion as all involved are blaming someone else. For goodness sake we are not at war! This "I'm OK/Your're not attitude must stop. We all must change our attitudes to other road users or else unnecessary deaths will escalate. Every sad event such as this does cause me to pause and reflect on my attitude. Thankfully I have never been involved in any serious accident as a cyclist, driver (car, trucks and bus). I hope any of us here never are too. All of us have a right to use roads out there, I want us to appreciate all of us need acknowledge this and use due care and courtesy and take the "my road" attitude out of road behaviour.

I for one and getting tired of hearing about deaths and accidents when a little patience, attention and empathy would have prevented many. My heart goes out to the families involved and the only reassurance I can give publicly is to resolve never to be the cause of such grief and pain. I call on all of us here to resolve the same. Hopefully this is of some comfort to those directly involved.
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby jules21 » Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:08 pm

kibnedyo wrote:What would be more appropriate at this time is for all of us to take a moment to reflect on our own behaviours as cyclists, drivers pedestrians and above all human beings to ensure the safety of ALLroad users.

you're spot on, except for the fact that some people, as has recently been reiterated here, have no intention of being introspective about their own on-road behaviour. i think i speak for broader society that it's a particular concern when they're in charge of a 68 tonne combination.

i have no doubt that due to the tragic consequences in this instance, there will be a detailed investigation to determine whether greater scope (and time) for introspection may need to be provided. however, it's a losing battle when that has to wait until after two fatal crashes.
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby il padrone » Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:16 pm

Nobody wrote:My wife was on the M4 yesterday before the crash.

She said the truck was doing about 10 over the speed limit in a 110Km/h zone. It was windy and the truck was having trouble staying within the lane.

She was also caught up in the road closure.

If she has not already done so, please make sure she contacts NSW Police.
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby oldplodder » Sun Apr 11, 2010 12:45 pm

ruscook wrote:Plodder,I definitely don't have any issue with what you say, but would expand it from "drivers" to road users. We're ALL equally responsible for our actions on the road. I'd hate to see huge penalties for drivers, just end up allowing us to get away with anything. There's bogans on bikes too!

ruscook, I agree but I don't mean that cyclists will be immune from the law. The bogans on bikes make it hard for us.
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby Uncle Grumpy » Sun Apr 11, 2010 1:05 pm

After the heavy vehicle hit the cycling group, Mr Williams was dragged beneath the truck for 100 metres, police said. The truck continued travelling west down the highway for another 900 metres, allegedly weaving and smashing into crash barriers and slicing a chunk out of a light pole.


In fairness to proper reporting of the facts, that is not the case. I was in the traffic at about 8:30am. The truck was parked partially up an embankment just west of the westbound on-ramp. A measure on google earth makes it out to be 600m from where the collision occurred. I can't say either way about Mr Williams being dragged for any distance. But I didn't see any damage to the crash barriers or light poles. At 110kmh, a tipper and dog would take a fair distance to pull up.

Notwithstanding, this is just tragic. My condolences to the families and friends of the deceased rider and my thoughts are with the injured riders.

Trucker, you have a right to an opinion. But please step aside from the rhetoric and the arguments that us cyclists have all heard before umpteen times. Until you approach this issue from the point of view that the injured cyclists or deceased cyclists are actually someone's brother, sister, mother, father, son or daughter, then your opinions count for nought. I liken it to a dog, they see a cyclist and they go mental, snapping at the wheels. Take the person off the bike and the dog is happy again. Those cyclists that you think are targets or their own worst enemy are actually people. That fact isn't diminished when they are on top of a bike. The next cyclist killed may be someone you love. My wife has your details. If I'm killed, she'll be in contact so you can explain it to my kids.

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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby wombatK » Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:50 pm

Uncle Grumpy wrote:
After the heavy vehicle hit the cycling group, Mr Williams was dragged beneath the truck for 100 metres, police said. The truck continued travelling west down the highway for another 900 metres, allegedly weaving and smashing into crash barriers and slicing a chunk out of a light pole.


In fairness to proper reporting of the facts, that is not the case. I was in the traffic at about 8:30am. The truck was parked partially up an embankment just west of the westbound on-ramp. A measure on google earth makes it out to be 600m from where the collision occurred. I can't say either way about Mr Williams being dragged for any distance. But I didn't see any damage to the crash barriers or light poles. At 110kmh, a tipper and dog would take a fair distance to pull up.

If a vehicle can not be pull up in less than 150 m in dry conditions (that's what most research give as stopping distance including reaction time, its independent of vehicle mass, see for exampe, RTA handbooks), it should not be travelling at that speed.

Quibbling about whether it was 600m or 900m has little relevance. If it took 600m, that's four times an acceptable stopping distance. The driver should be charged with failing to stop after an accident (amongst whatever else can be corroborated from witness accounts). 600m means he was at least a 10 minute walk away from the scene.

Plain and simple the driver failed to stop and render assistance after hitting the cyclists; the reports are that other motorists called 000. The reports suggest there are plenty of eye-witness accounts. And the damage on the trucks front bumper looked to be much more substantial than you'd expect from a cyclist impact - much more like he did hit crash barriers or light posts.

Please don't make any excuses for the state of the truck driver's mind. If he can't keep his mind together after ploughing into other road users, he should not be driving at that speed. More likely, his mind was not in a fit state prior to the collision, particularly if the reports of him speeding to overtake others are corroborated, and that should not be excused nor blamed on anything else.
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby Cinder » Sun Apr 11, 2010 2:53 pm

Wrote an epic reply and it got lost in the ether!

Anyway, what a tragic event, made me feel sick (literally) looking at the photos....

Condolences to anyone and everyone involved...

I think we should all wait until all the facts come to hand to argue over this accident... The sad thing is, even is someone does get "the book" thrown at them for this, the book is not really a book, it's more of a cheap comic printed on recycled paper...

Also can't believe that your actually allowed to ride on those kinds of road (your usually not down here). Just the thought of riding near that kind and volume of traffic, moving that fast, in the (shared) emergency lane has me afraid.
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby TheSkyMovesSideways » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:39 pm

wombatK wrote:If a vehicle can not be pull up in less than 150 m in dry conditions (that's what most research give as stopping distance including reaction time, its independent of vehicle mass, see for exampe, RTA handbooks), it should not be travelling at that speed.

Quibbling about whether it was 600m or 900m has little relevance. If it took 600m, that's four times an acceptable stopping distance. The driver should be charged with failing to stop after an accident (amongst whatever else can be corroborated from witness accounts). 600m means he was at least a 10 minute walk away from the scene.

Plain and simple the driver failed to stop and render assistance after hitting the cyclists; the reports are that other motorists called 000.

Let's not go overboard here. There's no law that a vehicle must be able to stop within 150m at all speeds, 600m is only a 10+ minute walk if you're an arthritic who depends on a walking frame, and there's no evidence to suggest that the driver failed to stop and render assistance - other drivers calling 000 certainly doesn't imply that the truck driver failed in his duty to assist.
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby ruscook » Sun Apr 11, 2010 3:47 pm

Trucker wrote:I've got an idea??? How about u all stop being so single minded in looking for someone to blame and look at yourselves? Last time I checked it's called a breakdown lane not a bloody bike lane and instead of putting s*** on truck drivers all the time why not look at all the idiots they put up with on the road daily and not be so quick to make them and make out like they have accidents delibrately... Stay off the bloody freeways

Welll Trucker, last time you looked was either a long time ago or you don't know the road rules. This link is the RTA site for cycleways out West. : http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/trafficinform ... th_plt.pdf Note: the M4 is not only classed as an ON ROAD CYCLEWAY it is actively advertised as such by the RTA. A cyclists use is restricted to the "so called" breakdown lane - technically the road shoulder.
You can find this in the following from page 23 of the RTA handbook for cyclists ( http://www.rta.nsw.gov.au/usingroads/do ... ndbook.pdf ):
"Freeways and motorways carry large volumes of traffic with multiple high-speed traffic lanes in each direction. If you ride a bicycle along a freeway or a motorway, you must obey the law and only ride on the shoulder."

You may not like these rules, nor like sharing the road with cyclists, but that IS the law in NSW.
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby Apple » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:12 pm

New to the forum, just wanted to say, how sad this is for everyone involved.
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby cbfcbf » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:13 pm

wombatK wrote: Crash occurred just beyond the slip lane exiting to Northern Road. If you were westbound on the M4, and going to the depot by shortest route, you'd exit at the Northern Road. If you missed it, you could go along to the next exit at Mulgoa Rd and come back (adds less than 1km).

What chance this goat was asleep at the wheel, missed his exit and tried to swerve onto it at the last second, only to fail (e.g. traffic already in slip lane) and collect the cyclists on the shoulder.



not taking any side but just want to clarify, the trucks all use mulgoa rd exit from this depot, i work/live in the area and the roads off northern rd are load limited roads until you get to jamison road which makes the trip longer than taking mulgoa rd exit. I am regularly between mulgoa rd and northern road and have only ever seen their b doubles coming in from mulgoa rd end.


It is a tragedy for those cyclists involved and i hope the outcome is what is deserved
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Re: Cyclist killed on Sydney's M4 motorway this morning

Postby brendancg » Sun Apr 11, 2010 4:25 pm

Firstly
I have been in a job for 19 years where I have gone and picked up the pieces after accidents where people are killed. I can honestly say that the CAR is the most dangerous item on the road. Not just by sheer numbers but by the way they are operated. I cannot count that amount of dead bodies I have seen in cars.

Second
My brother drives trucks for a living. Many of these men and women work very hard for very little reward. I have been out for a day with my brother just to see how it goes. After a day with him I was exhausted and I was sitting in the passenger seat. They are driven very hard by the operators as they need the trucks running to make money. An idle truck is a cost not a profit. Generally they are professional drivers, there are the odd cowboys out there and I qualify this with the following statistic. 1 in 6 truck drivers tested in random drug sampling on the Pacific Hwy was positive to illegal drugs. 1800 trucks make the trip up the Pacific each day making 300 of them drug effected. However 1500 of them aren't so. Now compare this to every day drug testing of car drivers in my area and you will find 1 in 4 positive to drugs.

Third.
This incident yesterday is a tragedy. It chills me to my bones and even more so when I am rung up by everyone I have ever worked with in western Sydney making sure that it wasn't me on the road. My thoughts and condolences go out to the families involved.

Finally
How about we let the police do there investigation here. I know the investigators they are very thorough.
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