Damn Rain First Stack

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Damn Rain First Stack

Postby Timguy » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:00 pm

Came off going around a wet corner down a hill at about 30kmh today, luckily I was riding with a thick jumper on and jeans =) so I only lost about two 50 cent piece sized patches of skin, one on my elbow and one on my hip. Imagine what the damage would have been like without the protective clothing!

Anyway my poor bike took a good hit, smashed the right sora lever and broke off the plastic on the top (still works though), and I shredded the grip tape on the left drops, and smashed up and broke bits off my plastic pedal. Poor bike wasn't even 2 months old. But oh well it had to happen sometime.

Quick question, how much slower do you guys ride in the wet? I went probably 10ks slower than usual around that corner, but it obviously wasn't slow enough.
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by BNA » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:03 pm

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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby JV911 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:03 pm

Timguy wrote:Quick question, how much slower do you guys ride in the wet?


take a wider line if possible so you're not leaning over as far. also make sure you're not on the brakes in the corner

out of curiosity - what tyres?
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby hannos » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:05 pm

Today's commute averages 28km/h.
fastest commute = 31.1km/h
So not that much slower really.

however, i do take corners a lot easier.
Last edited by hannos on Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby human909 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:12 pm

Coefficient of friction
Rubber Dry Asphalt 0.9 (0.5 - 0.8 )
Rubber Wet Asphalt 0.25 - 0.75


You can easily lose half or more of your available grip in the wet. People, especially drivers, do not moderate their driving/riding enough to the conditions. I find that in the dry most drivers don't even come close to the limit of their grip when cornering, in the wet they suddenly are pushing their limits because they barely moderate their driving.

30kph vs 40kph is 9/16 of the forces so if the figures are accurate then the maths shows that you were possibly ok. But of course that is theory land reality is different. Were you braking in the corner?
Last edited by human909 on Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:28 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby jules21 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:21 pm

agree with previous comments, but an additional risk in the rain is a lack of visibility. if you run over leaves or diesel or other matter on the road, your grip may be reduced to zero. i came off on a downhill bend on a bike path in the wet, in the dark. lying there bleeding, it struck me how much debris (leaves etc.) was on the path that i didn't see from my seated position. rain will also markedly cut your visibility.
Last edited by jules21 on Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby JV911 » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:27 pm

human909 wrote:People, especially drivers, do not moderate their driving/riding enough to the conditions.


how does that saying go again, "instant idiots, just add water"?
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby hannos » Wed Jun 23, 2010 1:37 pm

JV911 wrote:
human909 wrote:People, especially drivers, do not moderate their driving/riding enough to the conditions.


how does that saying go again, "instant idiots, just add water"?



oooh yeah.
people still drive (AT) 60km/h a car length from the vehicle in front, when it's p*ssing down...
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby Timguy » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:02 pm

I wasn't breaking around the corner, it wasn't even a sharp corner. I think the high psi in the tires had a lot to do with the front wheel sliding out. I was actually taking it pretty easy because on the previous corner the back wheel hit a little stick and slipped out a bit, so I'm like 'that was close better slow down even more', but apparantly it just wasn't enough.

I think I was accelerating though (pedaling), maybe I was shifting too much weight to the back wheel and that's why the front wheel slid out. But I can't be certain, it all happened so fast that I don't really know what the heck happened lol.

I did slide for a while on the road though, so I think the problem could have been simply a slippery road.
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby Old and Rusty » Wed Jun 23, 2010 2:20 pm

Last night I was skidding a bit on the road snakes on the cycleway just going in a straight line. I slow down heaps on corners on a wet road, when you factor in the size of the contact patch on a bike it's not alot of grip.
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby Chaderotti » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:15 pm

Usually, your rear tyre is the first to start whinging, then after a while it walks out the kitchen (fish tail) while the front tyre usually hangs in there. So by you saying that your front tyre was the first to go means that you hit a stick/ oil slick/ homeless person.
Also, what tyres are you using?
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby Mulger bill » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:35 pm

Not necessarily Chad, a little rearward weight distribution at the wrong time and it's a lowside to the hurtbox.

Glad it wasn't too bad Tim.

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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby trailgumby » Wed Jun 23, 2010 7:42 pm

Timguy wrote: But I can't be certain, it all happened so fast that I don't really know what the heck happened lol.


It tends to go like that when the front end washes out. :x

Might have been oil, wet leaves, or even just the white linemarking paint, which is particularly nasty - stay off that stuff, young man!
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby hannos » Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:06 pm

Chaderotti wrote: So by you saying that your front tyre was the first to go means that you hit a stick/ oil slick/ homeless person.



Hey! homeless people are smart enough to NOT go out in the rain!



hmm... What, then, are WE doing out there? We must be mad! MAD I tell you!
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby Nobody » Wed Jun 23, 2010 8:40 pm

Mulger bill wrote:Not necessarily Chad, a little rearward weight distribution at the wrong time and it's a lowside to the hurtbox.

Glad it wasn't too bad Tim.

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+1
Most people run too much pressure in the front tyre for good cornering as they don't match the pressure to the weight distribution. I'd say most cyclists don't know or haven't measured their weight distribution. Consequently the grip is actually lower on the front than the rear. I'd argue it is generally hard to have too little pressure in the front tyre for safe cornering in reference to what many roadies usually run.

As said, the trouble section of road/trail is also reached by the front wheel first. This is OK if you cope with the initial front slide as the rear usually follows quickly to balance things a bit. But sometimes you don't cope with the initial front slide, like on a wet wooden bridge...
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby queequeg » Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:46 am

I had a similar thing happen last year. I had to make a 90 degree turn at the bottom of a hill. It was raining, I knew the road would be slippery. As a result, I was going incredibly slow and I was taking a very wide and leisurely pace around the corner. It was all going great until one of my wheels hit an oil patch (I can't remember which, because it happened so fast!). Despite my low speed (~15km/h), the downhill slope combined with the slippery surface saw me slide down the road like I was on an ice rink. Damage to the bike was minimal. I broke my bell (boo hoo). Damage to me was far worse. I landed on the road still clipped in, and I had road rash all down my right hand side. Gouge out of my elbow and knuckles. It also knocked the wind out of me and I had to drag myself off the road and try to catch my breath. It hurt like hell!

I have ridden in the wet in far far worse conditions than that and not had any more incidents. The main thing I avoid doing is making turns with sudden steering inputs. Keep everything smooth and really slow it down. In the pouring rain my commute time over 20km increases by about 5 minutes.
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby thekovac » Thu Jun 24, 2010 4:19 am

queequeg wrote:I had a similar thing happen last year. I had to make a 90 degree turn at the bottom of a hill. It was raining, I knew the road would be slippery. As a result, I was going incredibly slow and I was taking a very wide and leisurely pace around the corner. It was all going great until one of my wheels hit an oil patch (I can't remember which, because it happened so fast!). Despite my low speed (~15km/h), the downhill slope combined with the slippery surface saw me slide down the road like I was on an ice rink. Damage to the bike was minimal. I broke my bell (boo hoo). Damage to me was far worse. I landed on the road still clipped in, and I had road rash all down my right hand side. Gouge out of my elbow and knuckles. It also knocked the wind out of me and I had to drag myself off the road and try to catch my breath. It hurt like hell!

I have ridden in the wet in far far worse conditions than that and not had any more incidents. The main thing I avoid doing is making turns with sudden steering inputs. Keep everything smooth and really slow it down. In the pouring rain my commute time over 20km increases by about 5 minutes.


Damn ouuchh... as George Costanza would say "Thats gotta hurt!" ..... nasty stuff....

I've had a similar incident but far less dramatic as the cases here... I was turning off a road onto a bike path that is 45' to the opposite side of the road which means you're almost making 115' turn to get onto it....it was a bit wet (kinda dewy from the morning) and there was some stones on the corner that I didn't realise until too late....I was lucky it was low speed as well, and instead of sliding on the underside of the bike somehow my bike flipped around the other direction and threw me into some nice soft grass.... left some unsightly marks on my brakes but escaped pretty clean otherwise...... I learnt pretty quick the importance of riding much slower and much more cautiously during the wet...... I feel really vulnerable in the wet, and don't want to make a mistake as 90% of my riding is on the road, failure could cause serious injuries or even be fatal for most of rides on busy roads.....I don't really 'turn in' to corners like you do normally so you can get a bit more speed through the corner, instead I hold a more upright position and try turn like that - helps a fair bit...... OP sorry to hear about your accident - sucks man :( but hope you'll be able to fix it fast and cheap.... lesson to be learnt aye? Hopefully others will learn from it too....
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Jun 24, 2010 5:56 am

I think you can push it pretty hard in the wet (I do 8) )...just stay smooth and take wider lines.
I saw a most beautiful display of wet weather riding at the Tour de Suisse...a guy on a TT bike going around a soaking wet super steep downhill corner a full speed in an aero position...and he was just a punter riding home after the race had finished...there were quite a few comments floating around after he passed us...I remember it better than the race!.
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby Chaderotti » Thu Jun 24, 2010 9:33 am

Could the transition of a hill immediately into a flat corner be enough to make the tyres let go because of the increase in rider mass? I know there are so many variables to take into account but is it possible?
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby Nobody » Thu Jun 24, 2010 10:08 am

Chaderotti wrote:Could the transition of a hill immediately into a flat corner be enough to make the tyres let go because of the increase in rider mass? I know there are so many variables to take into account but is it possible?
Mass theoretically only increases as it approaches the speed of light, but I think I understand what you mean.

I think you are referring to the vertical deceleration which places more impulse force on the tyres as you bottom out from the hill. This should increase grip momentarily. Most likely this action caused a bounce which lightened your weight on the tyres and momentarily decreased the grip.

Shocks or bigger tyres at lower pressure might have prevented this. One of the reasons I find bigger tyres more stable on the road.
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby Timguy » Thu Jun 24, 2010 12:50 pm

queequeg

I can imagine being clipped in would have been much worse. Luckily I'd been getting some pain behind my knee so I have temporarily taken off the clip in pedals, only just a week ago. So I wasn't riding clipped in like usual. I think all in all I was very lucky to be unclipped and wearing a lot of clothes. 99% of the time I'm clipped in with only t-shirt and shorts. That would have been messy.
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Re: Damn Rain First Stack

Postby Percrime » Thu Jun 24, 2010 1:36 pm

A little bit damp is much worse than pissing down wet from the viewpoint of safety. Also what tires were you using?
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