Electronic shifting. Why?

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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby rkelsen » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:21 am

alex wrote:i have a dream that one day cyclists will not be judged by the actuation method of their deraillers, but by the content of their character

No-one's judging the cyclists. Just the equipment. :P

Admittedly, I haven't tried electronic shifting, but I do enjoy the minimal simplicity of a cable.

Two things I'm certain of:

1. What I have works and I'm happy with it.

2. Adding electronics to things like this means that there's another layer of obfuscation between the user and his equipment.
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by BNA » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:35 am

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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby sogood » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:35 am

What would be a nice analogy for electonic shifting? A synchromesh gear box? Any others?

I also wonder how long before we'll see electronic shifting in the pro MTB rank?
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby Oxford » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:38 am

Mustang wrote:Yet to see a thread:
"I'm ditching my Di2 & going back to friction" ??????

well not quite Di2, but I went from STI to friction. :P
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby alex » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:40 am

some people like modern comforts and technology, some people don't... do these people who are anti-di2 ask their freinds and colleagues (and themselves) why they insist on driving cars with power steering and air con?!

'but you can just turn the wheel a bit more'

'but you can just put the windows down'

this morning i saw a bloke driving a mint condition datsun 180b to work, still got him to work just fine.

nobody is forcing anyone to ude di2, people use it because it is the latest and greatest, and it works really well. it is not going away so everyone needs to get used to it. dont sweat the little things, it is just derailler actuation.

if you want something to complain about, ill join you in a discussion against sram's new hydraulic rim brake... now thats pointless 'innovation' if ive ever seen it!
if i get killed while out on my bike i dont want a 'memorial ride' by random punters i have never met.
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby rkelsen » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:43 am

sogood wrote:What would be a nice analogy for electonic shifting? A synchromesh gear box? Any others?

Naw. Indexed shifters would be a better analogy to a synchromesh gearbox.

A good analogy to electronic shifting would be the semi-automatic transmission. Those things Clarkson calls 'flappy paddle gearboxes' that you see on high-end sports cars like Ferraris and Lambos.
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby RonK » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:50 am

sogood wrote:What would be a nice analogy for electonic shifting? A synchromesh gear box? Any others?

Not synchromesh - that is purely mechanical.

But DSG - as used by Audi and in the VW Golf GTI, Jetta, and current Tiguan is an electronically controlled manual transmission that makes fantastic seamless gearshifts with none of the torque converter slip and power loss noticable during automatic transmission shifts.
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby alex » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:50 am

clarkson hates everything, i wouldnt use his opinion here...
if i get killed while out on my bike i dont want a 'memorial ride' by random punters i have never met.
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby RonK » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:54 am

rkelsen wrote:Naw. Indexed shifters would be a better analogy to a synchromesh gearbox.

Actually, synchromesh is an aid to smooth shifting and gear engagement, and the best bike analogy would be the ramps and pins on modern cassettes and chainrings.
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby sogood » Thu Feb 09, 2012 10:56 am

Why didn't I think of DSG given I've been using it for the last 5 years? Good one! Even closer with its steering column pedal triggers.
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby alex » Thu Feb 09, 2012 11:01 am

dsg is superb to drive

expensive to fix (only buy if you are comfortable with this)

it is basically just like di2
if i get killed while out on my bike i dont want a 'memorial ride' by random punters i have never met.
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby master6 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:16 pm

drubie wrote:I'd be interested to hear from anybody who ever snapped a shifter cable. Even a rusted one.


drubie, you know that I stalk you here just to disagree :D In 1956 I had the little lead "end" pull off a cable. :D

I have to agree with you. If anyone has snapped a shifter cable, they should be so ashamed of their poor maintenance that they wont show their face here.
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby PawPaw » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:24 pm

rkelsen wrote:2. Adding electronics to things like this means that there's another layer of obfuscation between the user and his equipment.


I fall this side as well.
Manufacturers rarely make things less complex because it usually means less revenue. So over the last 50 years, we've had growing complexity in consumer goods.
Go back 50-100 years ago and most guys with a shed could fix their bikes.
Gradually, the level of complexity has changed that. Shimano derailleurs and STI levers, although adding functionality, are practically unserviceable.
This locks users in to replacing rather than repairing, which steers more user capital from other use to cycling.

This latest change to reliance on batteries is significant. Does anyone think about what is going to happen in the future with lithium batteries?
There's no quantum breakthrough likely in the next 20-30 years for battery technology. So driven by electronic cars, lithium is expected to go through the roof.
It is a semi rare element, and relatively expensive to mine, and is not recycled significantly.
It is very likely it's cost will escalate dramatically in the next 20 years, and that means groupset manufacturers mark up will be on a higher wholesale value.

I've been technical trading lithium (and rare earth element) producer stocks for several years. Check the RHS Y axis increments on this chart of a lithium stock.
[url]http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=5y&s=ORE.AX&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=&c=^GSPC[/url]
A lot of the volatility is due to how much credit the markets think will be injected into the global economy. But the scale is due to enormous projected demand for lithium.
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby Ross » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:30 pm

sogood wrote:
I also wonder how long before we'll see electronic shifting in the pro MTB rank?


http://fairwheelbikes.com/cycling-blog/ ... -bike.html
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby trailgumby » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:40 pm

Johndec wrote: That said, why would an average rider want to take the cost and weight penalty to ride a bike equipped with electronic shifting?

I can understand why the pros use Di2, etc, as they don't cop a weight penalty as their bikes easily meet the UCI 15 pound limit even with it. But why would the weekend warrior cop the extra weight and expense for what seems to be minimal benefits? In a properly tuned mechanical bike, changing gears is little more than a tap on a button anyway. Sure you have to occasionally trim the FD, just another quick tap...

Also, I couldn't think of anything worse than not being able to go for a ride because I forgot to charge the friggin battery!! Actually I can. Having to ride 30km home in 34/25 because the battery went flat! :shock:

Please enlighten me.

Sure.

If the commentary in the online and print media is correct:
* it's actually lighter than its cable operated equivalent - no steel reinforced housing or cable needed.
* it trims itself if gears rub on on the FD cage
* the RD also trims itself
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby sogood » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:44 pm

What's the next frontier of electronic shifting? Shift with a touch of button with or without pedaling. :wink:
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby Stoo » Thu Feb 09, 2012 12:46 pm

Ross wrote:
sogood wrote:
I also wonder how long before we'll see electronic shifting in the pro MTB rank?


http://fairwheelbikes.com/cycling-blog/ ... -bike.html


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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby rkelsen » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:15 pm

PawPaw wrote:This latest change to reliance on batteries is significant. Does anyone think about what is going to happen in the future with lithium batteries?

Wow. Interesting angle, and one which I'd not considered at all. This issue will become very interesting to watch over the next few years.
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby RonK » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:29 pm

sogood wrote:What's the next frontier of electronic shifting? Shift with a touch of button with or without pedaling. :wink:

CVT - continuously variable transmission, no shifting required and constant cadence.

Has been in use on farm implements for years and is now used in scooters and cars. Nissan use it in the Murano and other models, Subaru in the new XV.
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby damonik » Thu Feb 09, 2012 1:54 pm

I've ordered an sworks roubaix with ultegra di2, should get it next week

For those who don't have it and are whinging, it's simple - don't get it ;)

For those who have ridden on di2, well, you know why we've got it!
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby alex » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:04 pm

as always, it is the people who have not used a product who seem to have the strongest opinion about it

i dont own di2 but i am definitely in the market now that i have used it
if i get killed while out on my bike i dont want a 'memorial ride' by random punters i have never met.
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby master6 » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:33 pm

I have never ridden Di2, and know little about it, so I cannot make much comment, except to observe from this thread that some of those enthusiastic about the product seem to have fallen victim to its apparent side effect of turning some people nasty.

Does it come with a product disclosure sheet warning of this possibility?






:D :D :D
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby RonK » Thu Feb 09, 2012 2:57 pm

rkelsen wrote:another layer of obfuscation between the user and his equipment.

I'm sure the same would have been said about this exotic technology. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby Boognoss » Thu Feb 09, 2012 3:59 pm

sogood wrote:
Boognoss wrote:Regularly about every 3000-4000km for the RD on both 5600 and 7600 shifters. Always frays and snaps in the shifter 5mm from the end of the cable.

Which dodgy shifters are you using? Time to shift your allegiance. ;)


Whoops meant 5600 and 6600. The 5600 turned into 6700 now so it's only half dodgy :)
n = 3 for now

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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby rkelsen » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:03 pm

RonK wrote:
rkelsen wrote:another layer of obfuscation between the user and his equipment.

I'm sure the same would have been said about this exotic technology.

You're comparing electronic circuitry to a Cambio Corsa?

Guess which of those I could fix in my shed, and which I couldn't? :roll:
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Re: Electronic shifting. Why?

Postby RonK » Thu Feb 09, 2012 4:21 pm

rkelsen wrote:You're comparing electronic circuitry to a Cambio Corsa?

No, I comparing the likely attitude of cyclists when the Cambio Corsa was invented to those of some of the current generation of cyclists.
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