Armstrong formally charged by USADA

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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Alien27 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:51 am

It would be very interesting to see the 10-10place list as well :(
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by BNA » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:55 am

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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Nobody » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:55 am

I highly doubt that everyone that rides pro today is now suddenly clean. They are likely just better at covering it up and haven't been caught yet.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:57 am

That's one seriously depressing list :(
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby greyhoundtom » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:07 am

If ALL the competitors are using PED's the best athlete still wins. :twisted:
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby wizardhat » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:30 am

greyhoundtom wrote:If ALL the competitors are using PED's the best athlete still wins. :twisted:
I think PEDs affect athletes differently. If everyone dopes it becomes a game of whose body accepts drugs better.

That list really turns me off watching pro racing :(.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby clackers » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:32 am

Nobody wrote:I highly doubt that everyone that rides pro today is now suddenly clean. They are likely just better at covering it up and haven't been caught yet.


Yep. Microdosing.

And cycling's not alone. The guy who supplied Marion Jones during her career controversially guessed 60% of the London Olympic athletes were breaking the rules in some form. The key is to do it early enough, say up to nine months out.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby RICHARDH » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:56 am

greyhoundtom wrote:If ALL the competitors are using PED's the best athlete still wins. :twisted:


Tell that to Cadel and Sastre
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby zero » Tue Aug 28, 2012 11:53 am

clackers wrote:
Yep. Microdosing.

And cycling's not alone. The guy who supplied Marion Jones during her career controversially guessed 60% of the London Olympic athletes were breaking the rules in some form. The key is to do it early enough, say up to nine months out.


Dunno about other sports but athletics run the world champs early in an olympic year. ie you'd have to be skipping a major selection opportunity, or risk being caught at the second biggest show in the sport.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby wombatK » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:22 pm

clackers wrote:
Yep. Microdosing.

And cycling's not alone. The guy who supplied Marion Jones during her career controversially guessed 60% of the London Olympic athletes were breaking the rules in some form. The key is to do it early enough, say up to nine months out.

He'd be more credible if he'd told us which 60%, and how they're doing it.

I won't watch drug labs battling it out in any arena. That's what you'd have if it were open slather like Conte wants.


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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby r2160 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 1:35 pm

Thats it!!!

I know what we can do. We encourage athletes to use whatever drugs they like. Then the MAIN competition is between drug labs, trying to figure out WHO is doping and WHAT are they using.

Eliminates all the crap!

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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Bentnose » Tue Aug 28, 2012 4:31 pm

That list is why I think they should leave the results as they are, you'll probably have the same problem again in 10 years, may as well scrap the whole pro tour if you try to fix the results, I'm rapidly losing interest and will completely if they amend the results.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:06 pm

warthog1 wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:As an aside, here is the Top 10 from each of the Armstrong TdF wins. Red means that rider has had a ban/sanction for doping violation or subsequently admitted to or was found to have doped through later investigation. List originally from another forum, although I did update some names.

Of those remaining, there are a few that are still suspected (e.g. Pereiro & Azevedo).


:shock:
That list has cleared LA as far as I'm concerned. That whole era is broken :| . Time to reflect and move on what a farce :roll:

Clearing one murderer because others were doing it too makes no sense. Two hundred other wrongs still don't make it right.

In Armstrong's case, it's worse because he has been sanctioned for far more than doping, including trafficking, systematic doping requiring others to dope, and collusion to cover up.

It's not time to simply move on. All of the people involved in this case are still directly involved in the sport, in management, directing, medical, influencing and looking after riders, including youth squads. If found to have broken the WADA code on these matters (which Armstrong has been) it is imperative that they be removed entirely from the sport, lest their influence screw up ongoing generations of riders/managers/support staff etc.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:11 pm

greyhoundtom wrote:If ALL the competitors are using PED's the best athlete still wins. :twisted:

No, doping affects different people differently, and unfairly tips the balance to those that:
- have better medical doping support
- the money
- are able to exert financial and political pressure on others to support their doping efforts, either to dope themselves (e.g. team mates) or the authorities to assist in the avoidance of detection, and ironically to strengthen the doping checks on competitors.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:13 pm

clackers wrote:
Nobody wrote:I highly doubt that everyone that rides pro today is now suddenly clean. They are likely just better at covering it up and haven't been caught yet.


Yep. Microdosing.

And cycling's not alone. The guy who supplied Marion Jones during her career controversially guessed 60% of the London Olympic athletes were breaking the rules in some form. The key is to do it early enough, say up to nine months out.

EPO micro doses are undetectable within a day. Yet the benefits last for months.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Aug 28, 2012 5:16 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:It's not time to simply move on. All of the people involved in this case are still directly involved in the sport, in management, directing, medical, influencing and looking after riders, including youth squads. If found to have broken the WADA code on these matters (which Armstrong has been) it is imperative that they be removed entirely from the sport, lest their influence screw up ongoing generations of riders/managers/support staff etc.



This is what's needed to clean up the sport. Nailing ONE high profile offender and leaving the backroom people that enabled the offender is like putting a bandaid over a sharkbite.
Without the experts to perform and oversee it, systematic doping should wither and die. The ADAs will have to work very closely with local police forces...
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby RICHARDH » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:32 pm

I think the whole conspiracy part of the charges has been massively overlooked by many including the media. This isn't just that he doped but that he oversaw a system in which he indoctrinated riders into they whole doping ethos. I would very much like to see the witness testimony as i think this is going to paint Armstrong in a very interesting light.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby jules21 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:45 pm

RICHARDH wrote:I think the whole conspiracy part of the charges has been massively overlooked by many including the media.

while details have been leaked, they haven't come out officially. any media outlet reporting on them would seem to risk legal action from Lance. others have called Lance's bluff on that - from memory Flandis comes to mind - successfully betting that legal action and the transparency around it was too big a risk for Lance to take.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby RICHARDH » Tue Aug 28, 2012 6:56 pm

I'm not saying they need to speculate on the details but there hasn't even been a mention on them on any media outlet
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby warthog1 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:12 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
warthog1 wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:As an aside, here is the Top 10 from each of the Armstrong TdF wins. Red means that rider has had a ban/sanction for doping violation or subsequently admitted to or was found to have doped through later investigation. List originally from another forum, although I did update some names.

Of those remaining, there are a few that are still suspected (e.g. Pereiro & Azevedo).


:shock:
That list has cleared LA as far as I'm concerned. That whole era is broken :| . Time to reflect and move on what a farce :roll:

Clearing one murderer because others were doing it too makes no sense. Two hundred other wrongs still don't make it right.

In Armstrong's case, it's worse because he has been sanctioned for far more than doping, including trafficking, systematic doping requiring others to dope, and collusion to cover up.

It's not time to simply move on. All of the people involved in this case are still directly involved in the sport, in management, directing, medical, influencing and looking after riders, including youth squads. If found to have broken the WADA code on these matters (which Armstrong has been) it is imperative that they be removed entirely from the sport, lest their influence screw up ongoing generations of riders/managers/support staff etc.


Except that he wasn't a murderer, he was a doper along with much of the rest of the field. Take him off the results list and it becomes a debacle as there is no one to replace him with.
Fair enough if you can prove the governing body was involved then yes get rid of them and do it NOW. Don't take 13 years to do it. Get it over with and move on.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby RICHARDH » Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:30 pm

I feel sorry for the ADA's i think there is a real lack of understanding of the job they do and how hard it is for them to enforce the rules.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:40 pm

warthog1 wrote:Except that he wasn't a murderer, he was a doper along with much of the rest of the field. Take him off the results list and it becomes a debacle as there is no one to replace him with.
Fair enough if you can prove the governing body was involved then yes get rid of them and do it NOW. Don't take 13 years to do it. Get it over with and move on.


The data of concern with Armstrong relates not only to events in first half of 2000's but also to his competition right up to 2011, including blood passport irregularities from 2009 and 2010, so while it goes back a number of years (and we are talking about new evidence here), it's not like some of the issues are all that old. Keep in mind that doping positives are not the only form of valid evidence, and that such other evidence is not always immediately available.

I never said he was a murderer, just pointing out the logical fallacy to suggest it's OK because they were all doing it. Yes, they all might have been doing it, but that does not make it OK, nor should an agency whose job it is to follow up evidence provided to it about systematic doping and trafficking, ignore it.

A far bigger scandal would have been had USADA not taken action.

As for whether the TdF and other titles should be awarded to someone else, that's really of no consequence to the case at hand. I don't think there's a right answer to that, other than the UCI/ASO having to uphold the WADA code on those matters once they have received the formal report from USADA. IOW removing the titles is a requirement under the code. The tricky bit is what then? But that's not a reason to not deal with the bigger issue of removing drug traffickers from the sport.

Moving on? That's something that each and every one of us has the power within ourselves to do. No-one else can do that for you.

It's not USADA's fault that some athletes and management chose to engage in systematic doping and deception.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby norbs » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:47 pm

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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby AUbicycles » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:34 pm

On the conspiracy, or anything that will give the general public more conclusive proof (or closure) we just have to wait. If you read the charges by the USADA they cover briefly the conspiracy though before they start releasing their evidence (which they have said they would), it would be fair to say that anything can be considered speculation or spin.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby wombatK » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:39 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:As for whether the TdF and other titles should be awarded to someone else, that's really of no consequence to the case at hand. I don't think there's a right answer to that, other than the UCI/ASO having to uphold the WADA code on those matters once they have received the formal report from USADA. IOW removing the titles is a requirement under the code. The tricky bit is what then? But that's not a reason to not deal with the bigger issue of removing drug traffickers from the sport.

Something UCI have to work out is whether they ought demand the prizemoney returned, and if they do, whether it should be awarded to someone else or repaid to the sponsors.

Wouldn't it be nice if the UCI takes the money back, and spends it on more rigorous and improved testing ? Using it that way could have a decent impact on removing drug users from the sport and sends the right message about its importance.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby warthog1 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:58 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
I never said he was a murderer, just pointing out the logical fallacy to suggest it's OK because they were all doing it. Yes, they all might have been doing it, but that does not make it OK, nor should an agency whose job it is to follow up evidence provided to it about systematic doping and trafficking, ignore it.


To me the fact that a large number were doing it as evidenced by the list you put up lessens the degree of wrong doing. He levelled the playing field v most of his rivals. Maybe it doesn't change things for you, I'm not you.

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:As for whether the TdF and other titles should be awarded to someone else, that's really of no consequence to the case at hand.


Just pointing out the debacle we are now left with given that you had to be on the juice to win as evidenced by that list and the widespread nature of doping at the time. In the minds of many, including mine having read that list, he remains the winner. :|

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Moving on? That's something that each and every one of us has the power within ourselves to do. No-one else can do that for you.


I was talking about the sport and the negative publicity this is generating and has generated for so long now. Deal with it a damn sight faster and it is a bit easier to move on.
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