Armstrong formally charged by USADA

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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby skull » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:37 am

clackers wrote:
Christine Tham wrote:Basically Lance is doing the equivalent of a boycott:


He (and his doctor, already banned for life) basically did a plea of no-contest, which is not something we have in the Australian court system. We do insist on a defendant declaring they're guilty/not guilty.

In the States, it's understood as the same thing as guilty but with different subsequent ramifications and liabilities.
.


But that would be banned from competing in the US only right? Does the USADA the ability to prevent him from competing in other countries?
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by BNA » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:41 am

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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:41 am

wurtulla wabbit wrote:Very unamerican for Americans to head hunt an American so publicly and with such conviction.

I take it you've never heard of Joseph McCarthy?
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:43 am

skull wrote:
clackers wrote:
Christine Tham wrote:Basically Lance is doing the equivalent of a boycott:


He (and his doctor, already banned for life) basically did a plea of no-contest, which is not something we have in the Australian court system. We do insist on a defendant declaring they're guilty/not guilty.

In the States, it's understood as the same thing as guilty but with different subsequent ramifications and liabilities.
.


But that would be banned from competing in the US only right? Does the USADA the ability to prevent him from competing in other countries?


It is a requirement under the WADA code for all signatory sports that sanction(s) be applied gloabally. If they are not, then those sports themselves will be sanctioned, with for example, a removal of the sport from the Olympic Games.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:11 pm

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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby bigfriendlyvegan » Sat Aug 25, 2012 3:16 pm

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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby find_bruce » Sat Aug 25, 2012 7:27 pm

Thanks for the chuckle BFV, they didn't take long
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Christine Tham » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:58 am

Looks like Armstrong's "martyr" strategy is already working. Donations are up at Livestrong, and sponsors like Nike are continuing to support him.

http://www.sbs.com.au/cyclingcentral/news/39151/Livestrong-donations-boosted-in-wake-of-Armstrong-scandal

In the meantime, USADA is already being portrayed like the EPA guy in Ghostbusters - overzealous, over-reaching, and not understanding who the bad guy really is.

Interesting, because that will automatically make Armstrong the Bill Murray character - shady, dubious, quite possibly guilty of fraud, but trying to save the world. And ends up getting the girl.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby wombatK » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:57 am

Christine Tham wrote:In the meantime, USADA is already being portrayed like the EPA guy in Ghostbusters - overzealous, over-reaching, and not understanding who the bad guy really is.

Interesting, because that will automatically make Armstrong the Bill Murray character - shady, dubious, quite possibly guilty of fraud, but trying to save the world. And ends up getting the girl.

Armstrong's remarks are at best self-serving and deserve to be treated with contempt on that basis. At worst,
he is libelling USADA - and particularly Tygart. His legal actions against USADA failed so he seeks to undermine them by publicly trashing them. You'd have to be a complete buffoon to believe his accusations.

LA thoroughly deserves to be taken to court to shake-out some of the ill-gotten $125 million he's earned at the expense of competitors not prepared to dope up.

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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby roller » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:35 pm

wombatK wrote:
Christine Tham wrote:In the meantime, USADA is already being portrayed like the EPA guy in Ghostbusters - overzealous, over-reaching, and not understanding who the bad guy really is.

Interesting, because that will automatically make Armstrong the Bill Murray character - shady, dubious, quite possibly guilty of fraud, but trying to save the world. And ends up getting the girl.

Armstrong's remarks are at best self-serving and deserve to be treated with contempt on that basis. At worst,
he is libelling USADA - and particularly Tygart. His legal actions against USADA failed so he seeks to undermine them by publicly trashing them. You'd have to be a complete buffoon to believe his accusations.

LA thoroughly deserves to be taken to court to shake-out some of the ill-gotten $125 million he's earned at the expense of competitors not prepared to dope up.

Cheers


in BNA terms, he's certainly playing the man not the ball.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby blkmcs » Sun Aug 26, 2012 1:01 pm

wombatK wrote:...
LA thoroughly deserves to be taken to court to shake-out some of the ill-gotten $125 million he's earned at the expense of competitors not prepared to dope up. ...


He needs to be taken to court so the truth can be told, whether he wants to contest or not should not be an issue.
Not so sure about the practicalities of recovering money.
How many competitors were not prepared to dope as opposed to not being prepared to admit to doping?
What was the winning margin in each tour to the first "clean" competitor?
How much of that margin can be attributed to doping?
Is there any research that proves that had Armstrong not doped then he would definitely have been beaten by another non doping competitor?
If Armstrong's claims of not doping are not to be believed then why should similar claims from other athletes be believed?
They all have the same motive for denying any wrongdoing.
Sponsors bought a product that at the time of buying provided them with exactly what they wanted, if a sponsor now wants to recover that money then they should also pay back all benefits they received from that sponsorship.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Oxford » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:39 pm

at the end of the day, as a professional cyclist who is smart enough to know how his employment was dictated by various regulatory bodies and saw plenty of team mates and opponents affected by and subjected to the drug process, he knew the playing field under which he participated in his profession. now he doesn't like process he is having a dummy spit. sorry, he knew how the system worked. if he is not prepared to accept the process now as he did in the past, then I for one can only assume he has something to hide. shame, because I really did enjoy watching his TdF battles. I am so very glad I do not subscribe to hero worship and I feel very sorry for those that have rose colored glasses.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby jules21 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 5:05 pm

wombatK wrote:LA thoroughly deserves to be taken to court to shake-out some of the ill-gotten $125 million he's earned at the expense of competitors not prepared to dope up.

i'm not so sure about this bit. jan ulrich is now possibly going to be named 6-time(?) winner of the Tour :roll:
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby DavidS » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:07 pm

I don't think there is any choice, the titles for those years need to be vacated.

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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Mon Aug 27, 2012 8:58 pm

jules21 wrote:
wombatK wrote:LA thoroughly deserves to be taken to court to shake-out some of the ill-gotten $125 million he's earned at the expense of competitors not prepared to dope up.

i'm not so sure about this bit. jan ulrich is now possibly going to be named 6-time(?) winner of the Tour :roll:


who also has been banned for doping.

The sport is as bad as athletics.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:14 am

As an aside, here is the Top 10 from each of the Armstrong TdF wins. Red means that rider has had a ban/sanction for doping violation or subsequently admitted to or was found to have doped through later investigation. List originally from another forum, although I did update some names.

Of those remaining, there are a few that are still suspected (e.g. Pereiro & Azevedo).

2005
1 Lance Armstrong (USA) Discovery Channel
2 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC
3 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team
4 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) Illes Balears-Caisse d'Epargne
5 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) T-Mobile Team
6 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Gerolsteiner
7 Michael Rasmussen (Den) Rabobank

8 Cadel Evans (Aus) Davitamon-Lotto
9 Floyd Landis (USA) Phonak Hearing Systems
10 Oscar Pereiro Sio (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems


2004
1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal p/b Berry Floor
2 Andreas Klöden (Ger) T-Mobile Team
3 Ivan Basso (Ita) Team CSC
4 Jan Ullrich (Ger) T-Mobile Team

5 Jose Azevedo (Por) US Postal p/b Berry Floor
6 Francisco Mancebo Pérez (Spa) Illes Balears - Banesto
7 Georg Totschnig (Aut) Gerolsteiner

8 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC
9 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Rabobank
10 Oscar Pereiro (Spa) Phonak Hearing Systems


2003
1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal-Berry Floor
2 Jan Ullrich (Ger) Team Bianchi
3 Alexandre Vinokourov (Kaz) Team Telekom
4 Tyler Hamilton (USA) Team CSC

5 Haimar Zubeldia (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi
6 Iban Mayo (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi
7 Ivan Basso (Ita) Fassa Bortolo
8 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Credit Agricole

9 Carlos Sastre (Spa) Team CSC
10 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) iBanesto.com


2002
1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service
2 Joseba Beloki (Spa) ONCE-Eroski
3 Raimondas Rumsas (Ltu) Lampre Daikin
4 Santiago Botero (Col) Kelme-Costa Blanca
5 Igor Gonzalez de Galdeano (Spa) ONCE-Eroski

6 José Azevedo (Por) ONCE-Eroski
7 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) iBanesto.com
8 Levi Leipheimer (USA) Rabobank
9 Roberto Heras Hernandez (Spa) US Postal Service

10 Carlos Sastre (Spa) CSC-Tiscali


2001
1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service
2 Jan Ullrich (Ger) Telekom
3 Joseba Beloki (Spa) ONCE-Eroski

4 Andrei Kivilev (Kaz) Cofidis
5 Igor Gonzalez De Galdeano (Spa) ONCE-Eroski
6 Franois Simon (Fra) Bonjour
7 Oscar Sevilla (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca
8 Santiago Botero (Col) Kelme-Costa Blanca
9 Marcos Serrano (Spa) ONCE-Eroski
10 Michael Boogerd (Ned) Rabobank


2000
1 Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal Service
2 Jan Ullrich (Ger) Team Deutsche Telekom
3 Joseba Beloki (Spa) Festina
4 Christophe Moreau (Fra) Festina
5 Roberto Heras (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca
6 Richard Virenque (Fra) Team Polti
7 Santiago Botero (Col) Kelme-Costa Blanca
8 Fernando Escartin (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca
9 Francisco Mancebo (Spa) Banesto

10 Daniele Nardello (Ita) Mapei-Quick Step


1999
1. Lance Armstrong (USA) US Postal
2. Alex Zülle (Swi) Banesto
3. Fernando Escartin (Spa) Kelme-Costa Blanca
4. Laurent Dufaux (Swi) Saeco-Cannondale
5. Angel Casero (Spa) Vitalicio Seguros
6. Abraham Olano (Spa) ONCE-Deutsche Bank
7. Daniele Nardello (Ita) Mapei-Quick Step
8. Richard Virenque (Fra) Team Polti
9. Wladimir Belli (Ita) Festina
10. Andrea Peron (Ita) ONCE-Deutsche Bank
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Trev Campbell » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:32 am

That list makes for pretty sad reading !!!
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Alien27 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:34 am

Good God that is a very depressing list.

There is a good opinion piece in todays SMH that suggests just leaving the affected years blank with no winners as a monument to remind us of how bad it was.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby warthog1 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:36 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:As an aside, here is the Top 10 from each of the Armstrong TdF wins. Red means that rider has had a ban/sanction for doping violation or subsequently admitted to or was found to have doped through later investigation. List originally from another forum, although I did update some names.

Of those remaining, there are a few that are still suspected (e.g. Pereiro & Azevedo).


:shock:
That list has cleared LA as far as I'm concerned. That whole era is broken :| . Time to reflect and move on what a farce :roll:
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Alien27 » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:51 am

It would be very interesting to see the 10-10place list as well :(
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Nobody » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:55 am

I highly doubt that everyone that rides pro today is now suddenly clean. They are likely just better at covering it up and haven't been caught yet.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby Mulger bill » Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:57 am

That's one seriously depressing list :(
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby greyhoundtom » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:07 am

If ALL the competitors are using PED's the best athlete still wins. :twisted:
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby wizardhat » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:30 am

greyhoundtom wrote:If ALL the competitors are using PED's the best athlete still wins. :twisted:
I think PEDs affect athletes differently. If everyone dopes it becomes a game of whose body accepts drugs better.

That list really turns me off watching pro racing :(.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby clackers » Tue Aug 28, 2012 9:32 am

Nobody wrote:I highly doubt that everyone that rides pro today is now suddenly clean. They are likely just better at covering it up and haven't been caught yet.


Yep. Microdosing.

And cycling's not alone. The guy who supplied Marion Jones during her career controversially guessed 60% of the London Olympic athletes were breaking the rules in some form. The key is to do it early enough, say up to nine months out.
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Re: Armstrong formally charged by USADA

Postby RICHARDH » Tue Aug 28, 2012 10:56 am

greyhoundtom wrote:If ALL the competitors are using PED's the best athlete still wins. :twisted:


Tell that to Cadel and Sastre
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