HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Xplora » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:39 pm

LA's contention is that he would not get a fair hearing, and when a jury of peers isn't involved, scientific evidence is going to be ignored and there is strong likelihood of bias in the testimony presented, I don't know if I would do differently. This is the big thing - even without his TdFs (which will be worthless anyway to whomever gets them if they are stripped) he is considered a legend, and he doesn't need to compete anymore. His status is assured, even as a cheat. Maybe a huge chunk of people will dismiss or hate him - but he would know that deep down that he had no choice if he was doping, and that some people hated him anyway before the USADA's actions.

Statutory body or not, justice is important, and kangaroo courts for people will clean forensic records doesn't promote the antidrugs stance in sport at all.
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by BNA » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:45 pm

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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:45 pm

The greatest sporting fraud EVER?... he really is the Cancer Jesus and some believers will never be shaken.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Chuck » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:53 pm

fthills wrote:I don't know the legal standing of USADA but was there a jury , a hearing , an audience, a judge ?


Are you trolling? You keep asking the same question, Armstrong was offered the chance to test the case against him and he declined, what part of that don't you get?

il padrone wrote:
fthills wrote:Is there not a principle of not guilty until proven otherwise beyond reasonable doubt, in a forum where all can see and hear what is going on ?

Not in this kangaroo court.


The CAS is not a kangaroo court, though I'm sure Armstrong will be happy to know that all the money he's spent on PR has been effective on some.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Jono L. » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:54 pm

Xplora wrote:Statutory body or not, justice is important, and kangaroo courts for people will clean forensic records doesn't promote the antidrugs stance in sport at all.


I don't think I could disagree more strongly.

This whole process is not just about Lance.

It's about rooting out systemic corruption and fraud that speaks to the very core of Pro Cycling
Please read this
http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/07/rest-d ... d-arrests/

Gander at this
http://velorooms.com/files/ArmstrongBusinessConnectionsV2.pdf

And take a listen to this
http://www.rte.ie/radio/radioplayer/rte ... %3A0%3A%3A


The whole point is, that athletes can't dope in the way Armstrong did without a lot of assistance.

And nailing those who assist doping is where this investigation differs from every other bullsh!t case where some cyclist goes away for two years, keeps his mouth shut, and returns to a well paying job. All the while the management and the doctors and the regulators that facilitated it just move on to the next rider.

This was posted by the 'Race Radio' elsewhere, but it outlines, there is a lot more to come out of this.

Armstrong did not to contest a hearing, that doesn’t mean there won’t be a report about his case.

http://www.usada.org/files/pdfs/usada-protocol.pdf

“USADA shall publicly report the disposition of anti-doping matters no later than five business days after … (2) such hearing has been waived.”

Additionally “After an anti-doping rule violation has been established, USADA may comment upon any aspect of the case.”

They need to give this report, with instructions, to the UCI. The UCI then has a "Choice" to follow the instructions of USADA or to take it to CAS. I doubt they would take it to CAS as they would lose quickly. CAS does have a process in place to review and rule on cases rapidly, this would surely qualify.

I expect the UCI to strip Armstrong of all results from Aug 1998 till today. Armstrong has threaten to sue USADA if he is stripped....but who does he sue? It is actually the UCI that would do the stripping so perhaps he files a lawsuit against Travis?

So USADA can release all the evidence they like, the question is how and when. For now Bruyneel, Marti, and Celya all are facing arbitration, this may effect when USADA releases the evidence. They may also just dump it all into the public at the same time they give it to them.

I understand that Armstrong was on the phone with Bruyneel yesterday trying to get him to drop the arbitration. Johan has a lot more to lose as he will be unemployable if he is sanctioned. He does not have the cash that Wonderboy has.

Another interesting element will be how the public reacts in 4 months

Tyler's book is coming out at just the right time. Coyle is an excellent writer and it will be a compelling story. It will get significant coverage in both the mainstream and cycling media

Over the next few weeks much of USADA's case will be know and it will not be pretty. There will be very clear evidence of a cover up by the UCI. Not just of the 2001 ToS but also the 1999 Cortisone positive. It should also expose the actions by the UCI to try to insure the truth did not get out to USADA or the Feds. I also expect USAC to not be spared. The question is outlet for this info. It could be outside of any detailed report it gives to the media or UCI.

Multiple entities will launch lawsuits as soon as he is stripped. SCA is the most obvious but I expect sponsors to as well.

By the time any arbitration comes around for Bruyneel, Marti, and Celya the public will be well aware of what USADA is....even these goofy baseball writers who have been babbling about Lance all day.

And then there are the Federal cases.....save the best for last
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby AUbicycles » Sat Aug 25, 2012 9:57 pm

I have put together an opinion piece on the Ramifications of Lance Armstrong losing his seven Tour de France Titles

Purposely didn't go into some of the facts (and fiction) rather briefly looking at what it means for sports cycling
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Jono L. » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:01 pm

More good reading

http://inrng.com/2012/08/lance-armstrong-quits/

Can he be stripped of his titles?
Yes. USADA is an agency working under the World Anti-Doping Agency rules. If an athlete waives their right to a hearing then here is 8.3 of the WADA Code:

Waiver of Hearing
The right to a hearing may be waived either expressly or by the Athlete’s or other Person’s failure to challenge an Anti-Doping Organization’s assertion that an anti-doping rule violation has occurred within the specific time period provided in the Anti-Doping Organization’s rules. Where no hearing occurs, the Anti-Doping Organization with results management responsibility shall submit to the Persons described in Article 13.2.3 a reasoned decision explaining the action taken.

In short waiving the hearing means USADA can reach a “reasoned decision” based on the evidence at its disposal. If USADA rules there is a doping offence, imposes a lifetime ban and says he should be stripped of his wins then this applies worldwide. It is then for the UCI, as cycling’s governing body, to await the decision and issue the formal notice stripping Armstrong of his wins which it must do to comply with the WADA Code. All prize monies must be repaid too.

Kangaroo Court :roll:

Nice try.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Jono L. » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:07 pm

500 tests? :roll:

More from our friend the Race Radio
Lance's paid liars have invent the myth that lance has passed 500 tests. That he never tested positive. That he was the most tested athlete in history. They offer no evidence to support it, because it is a lie. One that is rather easy to prove wrong

You can look up the WADA testing history of any American rider on the USADA website.

http://www.usada.org/athlete-test-history

Since 2001 Lance has been tested 29 times. By comparison

George Hincapie 38
levi Leipheimer 40
Kirsten Armstrong 66

In 2004 le Equipe published Armstrong's UCI testing figures

* 1999 : 15 contrôles urinaires conventionnels (1 positif à la triamcinolone acétonide - corticoïdes)
* 2000 : 12 contrôles urinaires conventionnels
* 2001 : 10 contrôles urinaires conventionnels, dont 5 avec détection de l'EPO
* 2002 : 9 contrôles urinaires conventionnels incluant la recherche d'HES, dont 8 avec détection de l'EPO
* 2003 : 9 contrôles urinaires conventionnels incluant la recherche d'HES, dont 6 avec détection de l'EPO
* 2004 : 8 contrôles urinaires conventionnels incluant la recherche d'HES, dont 7 avec détection de l'EPO . 1 contrôle sanguin de détection des hémoglobines de synthèse .

Total UCI tests: 63

Total tests: 92 ........Nowhere close to 500 tests.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby il padrone » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:21 pm

Jono L. wrote:Kangaroo Court :roll:

Nice try.

You seem to misunderstand the meaning of the term :| .
A kangaroo court is "a mock court in which the principles of law and justice are disregarded or perverted'


A kangaroo court can certainly have power placed in its hands. Doesn't mean it is in any way fair or just.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby clackers » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:35 pm

biker jk wrote:Moreover, an authority on blood doping, Michael Ashenden confirmed the six EPO positives. ]


So much for "no physical evidence".

IIRC, in devising the first EPO blood test for the Sydney Olympics, they accidentally discovered Lance's six positives.

He also tested positive to steroids in the year of his first win, no matter what he might say.

The UCI (the same organization that's admitted to accepting $125,000 in donations from LA) simply bought his excuse of it resulting from saddle sore treatment.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Chuck » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:39 pm

il padrone wrote:
Jono L. wrote:Kangaroo Court :roll:

Nice try.

You seem to misunderstand the meaning of the term :| .
A kangaroo court is "a mock court in which the principles of law and justice are disregarded or perverted'


A kangaroo court can certainly have power placed in its hands. Doesn't mean it is in any way fair or just.


Please explain how the term is appropriate in this case?
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby clackers » Sat Aug 25, 2012 10:40 pm

il padrone wrote:
A kangaroo court can certainly have power placed in its hands.


He won't want any court to hear what George Hincapie has to say, Il Padrone! :smile:

He can appeal the doping agency finding to CAS if he likes. I bet he won't.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Mulger bill » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:01 pm

I'd still like to know who these other threatened witnesses are :?
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby clackers » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:04 pm

Mulger bill wrote:I'd still like to know who these other threatened witnesses are :?


Yep. And why the particular day in 1998 the ban starts from.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby paladin » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:20 pm

Chuck wrote:
Nads wrote:Naive as I may be, I believe in Armstrong. How many times do you have to defend yourself?


Only once, but he's elected not to.

+1
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby il padrone » Sat Aug 25, 2012 11:29 pm

Chuck wrote:
il padrone wrote:A kangaroo court can certainly have power placed in its hands. Doesn't mean it is in any way fair or just.


Please explain how the term is appropriate in this case?

http://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/y ... ur/c5xzfwx

And yes, "franchise" is correct because this operation was run not by some officer of the law, but the CEO of USADA. Travis Tygart has had it in for Lance for a long time; when Floyd Landis was busted, Tygart offered him a sweet deal if he would dish dirt on Lance.....

.... Some of the people called to testify are still active riders in the pro peloton, which are presumably in the "10+ witnesses" Tygart would call on, which means he didn't care about ACTIVE riders who were part of the same alleged doping ring; he just cared about trying to destroy public opinion about Lance, who was retired from cycling and last won in 2005.

Lance didn't have the option of a trial, only binding arbitration with a 3-person panel. Binding arbitration is bad enough for your cell phone contract, but imagine it applying to your job -- and not just to your current job, but a LIFETIME ban on working at all in your entire field.

And even if you win, it's not until after USADA has dragged your name through the mud, issues press releases about their allegations, makes false claims, and then publishes a report with all the allegations and dirt to further hurt your public image, and nothing prevents them from doing it all again later.

None of the above sounds to me like the actions of any real court.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby RICHARDH » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:06 am

il padrone wrote:
Chuck wrote:
il padrone wrote:A kangaroo court can certainly have power placed in its hands. Doesn't mean it is in any way fair or just.


Please explain how the term is appropriate in this case?

http://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/y ... ur/c5xzfwx

And yes, "franchise" is correct because this operation was run not by some officer of the law, but the CEO of USADA. Travis Tygart has had it in for Lance for a long time; when Floyd Landis was busted, Tygart offered him a sweet deal if he would dish dirt on Lance.....

.... Some of the people called to testify are still active riders in the pro peloton, which are presumably in the "10+ witnesses" Tygart would call on, which means he didn't care about ACTIVE riders who were part of the same alleged doping ring; he just cared about trying to destroy public opinion about Lance, who was retired from cycling and last won in 2005.

Lance didn't have the option of a trial, only binding arbitration with a 3-person panel. Binding arbitration is bad enough for your cell phone contract, but imagine it applying to your job -- and not just to your current job, but a LIFETIME ban on working at all in your entire field.

And even if you win, it's not until after USADA has dragged your name through the mud, issues press releases about their allegations, makes false claims, and then publishes a report with all the allegations and dirt to further hurt your public image, and nothing prevents them from doing it all again later.

None of the above sounds to me like the actions of any real court.


That's because it's an unfair representation of the facts, like how it fails to mention that one of the Judges would be selected by Mr. Armstrong's Lawyers ? I would also like to touch on this "mud slinging" thing, can i ask you to show me exactly were USADA have actually done this ? Armstrong has participated in this quite a lot but I haven't seen one statement from USADA that i would call Mud Slinging.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Chuck » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:37 am

Are you saying that Armstrong should be treated differently to all other athletes by having his case heard in a "real court" and not the CAS?

What is a "real court"? Is your definition a federal court, which ruled that it had no jurisdiction in this case?

il padrone Im-no-expert-but is offering an opinion, I read it the first time you posted up the link. There's no point complaining about who or where cases are heard, athletes are well aware of who they can be answerable to and what there options are. All that these arguments achieve are to distract from the case at hand, which is exactly what Armstrong wants. Let the evidence speak for itself, get it out there in the public domain and if it's viewed to be tainted or inadequate let us form our opinions and cast judgement on that not get bogged down in this procedural mire. WADA have given the USADA their support in how they've proceeded with this case, the UCI are signatories to the WADA code, their ill advised attempt to muscle in only served to draw further attention to the massive conflict of interest they have here and thus the need for independent ADA's.

In sports what we have is the CAS, whether you or anybody else view them as not a real court is irrelevant.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Jono L. » Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:34 am

il padrone wrote:
Chuck wrote:
il padrone wrote:A kangaroo court can certainly have power placed in its hands. Doesn't mean it is in any way fair or just.


Please explain how the term is appropriate in this case?

http://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/y ... ur/c5xzfwx

And yes, "franchise" is correct because this operation was run not by some officer of the law, but the CEO of USADA. Travis Tygart has had it in for Lance for a long time; when Floyd Landis was busted, Tygart offered him a sweet deal if he would dish dirt on Lance.....

.... Some of the people called to testify are still active riders in the pro peloton, which are presumably in the "10+ witnesses" Tygart would call on, which means he didn't care about ACTIVE riders who were part of the same alleged doping ring; he just cared about trying to destroy public opinion about Lance, who was retired from cycling and last won in 2005.

Lance didn't have the option of a trial, only binding arbitration with a 3-person panel. Binding arbitration is bad enough for your cell phone contract, but imagine it applying to your job -- and not just to your current job, but a LIFETIME ban on working at all in your entire field.

And even if you win, it's not until after USADA has dragged your name through the mud, issues press releases about their allegations, makes false claims, and then publishes a report with all the allegations and dirt to further hurt your public image, and nothing prevents them from doing it all again later.

None of the above sounds to me like the actions of any real court.

That's a Livestrong press release for gods sake.

Lance's legal team took their case againt USADA to the federal level to try and have it deemed unconstitutional. The judge threw the case out. If USADA was doing all of the above, don't you think the federal judge might have something to say about it?

Don't let all the PR noise distract from the facts of the case.

Goddam Lance's team is good at this :wink:

The only grounds the judge sounded as questionable was the withholding of some witness testimony*

*Testimony that USADA where withholding until trial to prevent witness intimidation, at which Lance's team is great.

It's funny how Lance wants to build his reputation of the work or USADA an WADA. "500 tests, most tested athlete of all time etc etc" whilst at the same time accusing them of being an unjust bunch jealous low lifes just out to get him :?
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby warthog1 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 9:42 am

AUbicycles wrote:I have put together an opinion piece on the Ramifications of Lance Armstrong losing his seven Tour de France Titles

Purposely didn't go into some of the facts (and fiction) rather briefly looking at what it means for sports cycling


That is a good piece.
Cycling is the big loser, he got so many of the uninterseted general public interested in the sport. Many will now write it off and that makes the market for the sports sponsors that much smaller as you point out. :x
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Speedster » Sun Aug 26, 2012 12:45 pm

AUbicycles wrote:I have put together an opinion piece on the Ramifications of Lance Armstrong losing his seven Tour de France Titles

Purposely didn't go into some of the facts (and fiction) rather briefly looking at what it means for sports cycling

Excellent piece. If I may highlight one small inaccuracy? Titles are being stripped from 1998, not 1988 as the article currently says ;)
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Oxford » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:39 pm

at the end of the day, as a professional cyclist who is smart enough to know how his employment was dictated by various regulatory bodies and saw plenty of team mates and opponents affected by and subjected to the drug process, he knew the playing field under which he participated in his profession. now he doesn't like process he is having a dummy spit. sorry, he knew how the system worked. if he is not prepared to accept the process now as he did in the past, then I for one can only assume he has something to hide. shame, because I really did enjoy watching his TdF battles. I am so very glad I do not subscribe to hero worship and I feel very sorry for those that have rose colored glasses.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby bella26 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:46 pm

warthog1 wrote:
AUbicycles wrote:I have put together an opinion piece on the Ramifications of Lance Armstrong losing his seven Tour de France Titles

Purposely didn't go into some of the facts (and fiction) rather briefly looking at what it means for sports cycling


That is a good piece.
Cycling is the big loser, he got so many of the uninterseted general public interested in the sport. Many will now write it off and that makes the market for the sports sponsors that much smaller as you point out. :x


I'm not so sure about many people writing cycling off. I was one of those uninterested people in the general public who got interested in cycling purely because of the exploits of Lance. I now love the sport immensely and am not about to ditch it because of his or any other doping antics. I came to my conclusions about Lance many moons ago and I think alot of others have as well. Still it will forever be one of those things that will be so divisive - especially when so many are won over by the 'cancer shield' defense.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby biftek » Sun Aug 26, 2012 4:57 pm

Oxford wrote:at the end of the day, as a professional cyclist who is smart enough to know how his employment was dictated by various regulatory bodies and saw plenty of team mates and opponents affected by and subjected to the drug process, he knew the playing field under which he participated in his profession. now he doesn't like process he is having a dummy spit. sorry, he knew how the system worked. if he is not prepared to accept the process now as he did in the past, then I for one can only assume he has something to hide. shame, because I really did enjoy watching his TdF battles. I am so very glad I do not subscribe to hero worship and I feel very sorry for those that have rose colored glasses.


i hardly doubt anyone will wipe cycling off just because one person got done
if a person wants to cycle they will cycle no matter what

take a look at bodybuilding/weightlifting , that is one tainted sport , but there is more and more people joining gyms every day
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby wombatK » Sun Aug 26, 2012 6:03 pm

[quote="bella26"]
I'm not so sure about many people writing cycling off./quote]
+1. The sky hasn't fallen in - a cheat has been outed. While the UCI hasn't exactly covered themselves
in glory, there's a lot more to the sport than them.

There's a great opportunity for the UCI to acknowledge it's past failings and address them so the
world can be confident there'll never be another Lance.

Athletics recovered from Ben Johnson. Cycling can recover from Lance Armstrong.

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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Chuck » Sun Aug 26, 2012 7:30 pm

biftek wrote:i hardly doubt anyone will wipe cycling off just because one person got done
if a person wants to cycle they will cycle no matter what


+1 as many people out on the M7 cycleway the last two mornings as ever :) As wombat said the sky hasn't fallen in :)

Sadly though the omerta remains amongst alot of former/current cyclists, team managers and cycling journos going by the reactions I've seen and heard :x

Jono L. wrote:........


A bit of air time on Cycling Central tonight Jono :D Nice work for your team at the TOTGSC 8) Excellent results for Genesys.
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