HOLY !! BAN ME NOW FOR SWEARING !!!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Jono L. » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:04 pm

Chuck wrote:
Jono L. wrote:........


A bit of air time on Cycling Central tonight Jono :D Nice work for your team at the TOTGSC 8) Excellent results for Genesys.

Cheers,

The tour absolute nailed me. So, lots of recovery time means lots of time wasting on the internet debating the ins and outs of the Armstrong saga :)
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by BNA » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:09 pm

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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Jono L. » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:09 pm

warthog1 wrote:This whole sorry saga can hardly be seen as an image boosting positive publicity episode for the sport.

It's not going to be great. But let's be honest, I don't think anyone would prefer to have dopers remain in the sport just to maintain good PR (And I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I know you didn't specifically say this, but it is starting to head down that path)

At the end of the day, the system ain't perfect, but it's the system we've got. And if it nails corruption and fraud on the level that we're all about to be made aware of (time will tell), then it's better than nothing for me.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby arkle » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:31 pm

Why don't they just make all artificial performance enhancing methods, e.g. drugs, blood transfusions, low-oxygen training tents etc. legal. No cheats, no "doping," no drug testing; it's all fine. Then we'll see a level playing field. What can the human body achieve? There must be a limit, even with no holds barred.

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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby dugy » Sun Aug 26, 2012 10:40 pm

Explanation for the witch hunt is that the cyclists hunting L.A. injected oestrogen by mistake.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Alien27 » Sun Aug 26, 2012 11:52 pm

arkle wrote:Why don't they just make all artificial performance enhancing methods, e.g. drugs, blood transfusions, low-oxygen training tents etc. legal. No cheats, no "doping," no drug testing; it's all fine. Then we'll see a level playing field. What can the human body achieve? There must be a limit, even with no holds barred.

arkle


The choice athletes face if PED's are legal is, do I look after my health or do i dope and be competitive.

With open slather on doping you would have juiced up front runners pushing the limits as to how much chemicals their body's could take. Think soviet Olympic program and the terrible ramifications that had on their athletes health later in life.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby il padrone » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:10 am

So training at altitude is quite legal for athletes as I understand it. Blood doping is not. EPO is not. What about using hyperbaric chambers - is their use legal? And how much, how often?


Note - I'm not embarking on some sports performance enhancement program, just asking :wink:


[edit] OK, found out a bit, from Yahoo. Legal, bt WADA doesn't like them, not in the 'sporting spirit'. Does this mean Phelps is not a good sportsman ?? :P

This may sound very similar to blood doping (the process where athletes use medication or blood procedures to increase the red blood cells), the World Anti-Doping Agency ruled in 2006 that these chambers do enhance performance and violate the spirit of the sport. However, they did not include it in their list of banned substances so it is currently legal for athletes to use.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby MarkG » Mon Aug 27, 2012 12:40 am

So until uci ratifies this, its not really official is it?

Or am I missing something?
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby alex » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:18 am

the UCI is a signatory to the WADA code - it is official

all that is left is for USADA to provide the UCI with their 'report' so the UCI can do their press release, and for the ASO and UCI to decide what to do about the 'wins' (ie delete them, award them to someone else etc)
if i get killed while out on my bike i dont want a 'memorial ride' by random punters i have never met.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby herzog » Mon Aug 27, 2012 5:40 am

arkle wrote:Why don't they just make all artificial performance enhancing methods, e.g. drugs, blood transfusions, low-oxygen training tents etc. legal. No cheats, no "doping," no drug testing; it's all fine. Then we'll see a level playing field.


Then the competition will be about who has the best pharmacist.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Ross » Mon Aug 27, 2012 6:45 am

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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Jono L. » Mon Aug 27, 2012 7:50 am

MarkG wrote:So until uci ratifies this, its not really official is it?

Or am I missing something?

Not official yet.

The UCI can agree and strip all titles or they can dispute the evidence and take it to CAS as they decided to do in Contador saga.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby zero » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:34 am

arkle wrote:Why don't they just make all artificial performance enhancing methods, e.g. drugs, blood transfusions, low-oxygen training tents etc. legal. No cheats, no "doping," no drug testing; it's all fine. Then we'll see a level playing field. What can the human body achieve? There must be a limit, even with no holds barred.

arkle


Because the limit is death, and that is not what sports should be about.

Also it would self select juniors on the basis of how well they respond to drugs, and more importantly by how much drugs they can afford, in a sport that already struggles to keep that playing field level.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby yarravalleyplodder » Mon Aug 27, 2012 9:57 am

Its a sad state of affairs as LA was a person who sparked my initial interest in the sport and I found his book inspiring

as the dust settles you can see people both in and outside the sport supporting him as well as condemning him so really nothing much has changed through this whole saga :roll:

I was looking forward to seeing what he could do in triathlons but I guess now I hope it all fades away and we marvel at the exploits of Cadel and Wiggins and I hope their records stand up to the scrutiny of time and the drug testers

I will still jump on my bike and head off for a spin and in the end thats all that matters
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:04 am

Oxford wrote:

stopped reading when I saw the article author's name, she has a vested interest in LA's reputation given she co-authored many of his books with him.

Let alone the numerous factual errors.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:15 am

il padrone wrote:So training at altitude is quite legal for athletes as I understand it. Blood doping is not. EPO is not. What about using hyperbaric chambers - is their use legal? And how much, how often?


Note - I'm not embarking on some sports performance enhancement program, just asking :wink:


[edit] OK, found out a bit, from Yahoo. Legal, bt WADA doesn't like them, not in the 'sporting spirit'. Does this mean Phelps is not a good sportsman ?? :P

This may sound very similar to blood doping (the process where athletes use medication or blood procedures to increase the red blood cells), the World Anti-Doping Agency ruled in 2006 that these chambers do enhance performance and violate the spirit of the sport. However, they did not include it in their list of banned substances so it is currently legal for athletes to use.

I'm not sure that artificial altitude environments can be considered any differently to other means of altering an environment that can also impact of training performance, like air-con, or heating.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Aug 27, 2012 10:16 am

arkle wrote:There must be a limit, even with no holds barred.

Death cures doping. The first reported doping death occurred in the late 1890s. There have been many more since.

Some doping is/has been state sponsored, and without consent of the athlete. Is that OK?
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Sharkey » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:19 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
arkle wrote:There must be a limit, even with no holds barred.

Death cures doping. The first reported doping death occurred in the late 1890s. There have been many more since.

Some doping is/has been state sponsored, and without consent of the athlete. Is that OK?


In the 90s, before there was a test for EPO, there were supposedly some cyclists who's blood had thickened so much from taking EPO that they had to sleep hooked up to a heart monitor and an alarm. If their heart slowed too much (because it struggled to pump the thickened blood) an alarm went off and somebody came into the room, woke the cyclist and had him raise his heart rate by either doing push-ups or riding an exercise bike.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby hazmat5765 » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:33 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
Oxford wrote:

stopped reading when I saw the article author's name, she has a vested interest in LA's reputation given she co-authored many of his books with him.

Let alone the numerous factual errors.

I've read the article (it's only 2 pages), what are the factual errors?
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby clackers » Mon Aug 27, 2012 1:38 pm

Sharkey wrote:
In the 90s, before there was a test for EPO, there were supposedly some cyclists who's blood had thickened so much from taking EPO


Anyone see that SBS documentary last night on thoroughbreds?

They are VO2 machines. Huge heart, giant lungs emptied 140 times a minute with the guts squeezing the air out of them when the hind legs come forward, and their own form of doping: 30% of their blood cells released from the spleen when needed.

My tip is Black Caviar to cap off a brilliant career with a win in the Giro next year!
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby wombatK » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:50 pm

arkle wrote:Why don't they just make all artificial performance enhancing methods, e.g. drugs, blood transfusions, low-oxygen training tents etc. legal. No cheats, no "doping," no drug testing; it's all fine. Then we'll see a level playing field. What can the human body achieve? There must be a limit, even with no holds barred.

arkle

And when you reach the limit of what tendons etc can withstand, add springs like Pretorious does. Then strap on some rockets for your next boost. Hell yeah, lets unleash the best science & technology have got. :roll:

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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby wurtulla wabbit » Mon Aug 27, 2012 2:59 pm

RonK wrote:
Xplora wrote:
Jono L. wrote:[quote="fthills"]And when has LA appeared in a court to confront his accusers his like rapists and murderers do?

He just chose not to

There must be a legitimate appraisal of the facts - USADA was not trying to take him to court. Arbitration is different. And there is a very different case here to the "murderers and rapists". Lance has truckloads of DNA/forensic/scientific evidence that shows he hasn't doped. I agree that this doesn't mean he isn't a doper... but in a court of law, reasonable doubt is the measuring stick and if OJ could get away with it, then Lance certainly deserves to get away with it. That's life. :P
Lance isn't contesting the charges because it seems that his natural right to a fair trial is being ignored.

The glib nature of many of the replies against Lance shows that there isn't a lot of evidential evaluation happening here.

Reasonable doubt? You have been watching to many TV soapies.

What part of Federal Judge Sam Sparks dismissal of LA's lawsuit, where he determined that courts had no jurisdiction, did you not understand?

The USADA is a statutary body. It is not a court of law. The testimony of 10 former team members is not going to leave much room for reasonable doubt, and as I've previously posted, the testimony of people such as Hincapie cannot be casually dismissed.

What evidence has been examined? None. LA has decided not to examine or contest the evidence.

How can you claim LA didn't get a fair trial when he himself has decided not to participate?

If LA wants to dispute the charges then it's up to him to offer a defense. The outcome will be determined by the Court if Arbitration in Sport.[/quote]



So, which one of the runners up gets the titles ?

Near all have been banned for failing tests.
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby The 2nd Womble » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:43 pm

clackers wrote:
Sharkey wrote:
In the 90s, before there was a test for EPO, there were supposedly some cyclists who's blood had thickened so much from taking EPO


Anyone see that SBS documentary last night on thoroughbreds?

They are VO2 machines. Huge heart, giant lungs emptied 140 times a minute with the guts squeezing the air out of them when the hind legs come forward, and their own form of doping: 30% of their blood cells released from the spleen when needed.

My tip is Black Caviar to cap off a brilliant career with a win in the Giro next year!

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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby wombatK » Mon Aug 27, 2012 3:47 pm

wurtulla wabbit wrote:So, which one of the runners up gets the titles ?

Near all have been banned for failing tests.

Whichever ones of them had not failed drug tests at the time of their race, and have not got other
evidence of drug cheating at the time of their race laid out on the table. Go down the finish line
until you find one.

Doesn't sit well with me - it would be much nicer to have proven drug cheats banned for life,
forward and backward. That way Vinokourov wouldn't have been the 2012 road racing gold medallist.

But that's not the rules at the moment, and so it's a red-herring in the defense of Armstrong.

It's probably wishful thinking, but wouldn't it be nice to see a flurry of new evidence emerge about
any newly crowned runners up who've later proven to cheat ?
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby AndyTheMan » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:32 pm

I reckon one of two things will happen with the TdF titles:

1. (most likely, IMHO) - the UCI will decide that they do not agree with USADA and will NOT strip Armstrong of the titles. I reckon this is likely because they would then have to go through the charade of going down the list for each year to get to the one/s who weren't on the juice. and THEN, the would have to hope in hell that no further evidence about the eventual recipient of the GC winners jersey comes out in 5 years! I reckon that this is part of the legal games of Lantz Armstong and his legal team - I would be sure that there will be lobbying going on behind the scenes. I reckon this was part of his strategy myself. It's pretty brilliant really - don't fight USADA, then put the other authorities in the un-enviable position of having to either a) disagree with decision of USADA; or b) agree that LA should be stripped of titles, then go through the whole process of justifying who they give the yellew jersey to! Brilliant!

2. If they decide to accept the findings/evidence of USADA that LA was on the needle, then they will just vacate the winners GC position and say no more about it!

I just wish this had all unfolded during the TdF this year - as the commentary discussion would have been awesome!
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Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby The 2nd Womble » Mon Aug 27, 2012 4:36 pm

Horses on bikes! Pffft. What next? Chinese Olympic champion swimmers?! LMAO!!!
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