HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:05 pm

ldrcycles wrote:
The 2nd Womble wrote:Cycling Central-
"Lance Armstrong has accepted his life ban and will lose all his Tour de France titles. More to come soon."


I understand there is a character limit on twitter but that (and the headlines all the news sites are going with) is very misleading IMO, he hasn't accepted a life ban, he has just said he won't fight the charges that may lead to a life ban. And it's not a matter of he WILL lose the titles, he MAY lose them.

EDIT: wanted to clarify the above statement was Cycling Central's, not the womble's.

Yeah but it's all that was available at the time.
The only good Cyclist is a Bicyclist

Huge fan of booted RGers who just can't help themselves
User avatar
The 2nd Womble
 
Posts: 3058
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:21 pm
Location: Brisbane

by BNA » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:08 pm

BNA
 

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Xplora » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:08 pm

Jono L. wrote:
Xplora wrote:It probably IS an attempt to keep evidence out of the public domain, but he has a legitimate complaint - if Lance doesn't work or race under USADA jurisdiction, then they don't get to charge him. If he can't reasonably expect a fair hearing where justice is served, then he should not be forced to defend the charges. We call them Kangaroo Courts in Australia. :idea:

He is more than welcome to take the case to the CAS is if he is unhappy about jurisdiction....

The impression I get is that he is NOT welcome.

This is the problem - it seems clear that there is no real interest in "natural justice" for this case. It doesn't matter if he's a juicing dopehead crackbaby smuggler, the enforcement bodies must play by the rules to catch people, otherwise there is no justice. It is incredibly important to remember that statutes of limitations exist for a reason, jurisdiction exists for a reason, procedural fairness exists for a reason. What is to stop the UCI banning a local race you organise with your friends? Natural justice. Nothing more.
Xplora
 
Posts: 6086
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: TL;DR

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby rogan » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:09 pm

So who gets the 7 Tours? I'm glad you asked. Obviously if they take them off Lance, you can't just give them to some other tainted rider. Just a thought experiment really, don't get too upset if I've trashed your favourite rider on insubstantial or flawed evidence! :D

So let's see how we go here:

1999 Hapless Alex Zulle got second, but he admitted to EPO (dunno why, it never helped him). I think that makes Escartin the winner.
2000 Ullrich got second. Bzzt! Beloki. Hmmm. A bit suss, but nothing proven.
2001 Same top three. Looks like Beloki went back to back. Who knew?
2002 Beloki got second that year. Three in a row.
2003 Second was Ullrich. Third was Vinokourov. Hmm. Fourth was Tyler Hamilton. This could take a while. Haimar Zubeldia was fifth. We have a winner.
2004 Second was Kloden. Have to give it to him I think.
2005 Second was Basso, third was Ullrich. Fourth was Mancebo, who retired immediately upon Operation Puerto being publicised. He's out. Vinokourov was fifth. Leipheimer was sixth. Rasmussen (the latter day Pollentier) was 7th. Ahem. Moving right along. Our Cadel was eighth... So...

Well, that was fun...
Image
rogan
 
Posts: 741
Joined: Thu Feb 25, 2010 9:31 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:19 pm

Woohoo...Jan Ullrich 6 times tour winner :-)
Image
User avatar
toolonglegs
 
Posts: 14382
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:49 pm
Location: Somewhere with padded walls and really big hills!

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Wal42 » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:33 pm

Does that means people are going to look at me strange when I get my USPS Team bike out & ride it around???

Will all the serious pro types stay off my rear wheel just because I may be 'tainted' ???????


Cool, think I may start riding the damn thing again, if Armstrong did in fact cheat, then so be it, he was probably just doing what everybody else was doing.


Who knows what they'll discover in 3, 5, 10 years time about most cyclists, Chinese athletes, etc, when testing gets better.

Yep, he may have doped or done the blood transfusion thing, they probably all did, but I think the whole USADA thing has been a 'tall poppy' syndrome, they were always going to chuck as much mud as it took to tarnish Armstrong (and every American cyclist of the last 15 years), maybe they should check all cyclists who are still alive for any traces of drugs, what do you think the chances that every cyclist over the last 40 years took something (non-perscription use of broncio dialators was rife during the late 60's to 80's).

To justify their existence, the USADA has targeted the biggest fishes, they couldn't afford to test all the riders in the recent Tour of California, but they have managed to spend bucket loads on trying to find every US rider of the last 15 years guilty of doping, maybe these guys are guilty, maybe they're not, to this point there has been no absolute concrete evidence presented (that I've seen), it's all been rumour & innuendo. So how many riders were guilty of riding whilst doped during the Tour of California? Would we ever know because the USADA has blown their budget pursuing past sins.

Yep, all of those guys may have doped, concentrate on today, get drugs out of the current competition, use the budget on catching those who are using current state of the art methods to gain an unfair advantage now, what does going back 15 years & trying to sully somebodies reputation, because they won (either fairly or by being the best at bending the rules), it doesn't fix anything now, all it does is further sully the reputation of cycling.

Just my opinion, but I'd like to see the sport move on, get clean & stronger rather than vanish because of past mis-deeds.
Wal42
 
Posts: 736
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:09 pm

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby find_bruce » Fri Aug 24, 2012 4:47 pm

rogan wrote:So who gets the 7 Tours? I'm glad you asked. Obviously if they take them off Lance, you can't just give them to some other tainted rider. Just a thought experiment really, don't get too upset if I've trashed your favourite rider on insubstantial or flawed evidence! :D

So let's see how we go here:

1999 Hapless Alex Zulle got second, but he admitted to EPO (dunno why, it never helped him). I think that makes Escartin the winner.
2000 Ullrich got second. Bzzt! Beloki. Hmmm. A bit suss, but nothing proven.
2001 Same top three. Looks like Beloki went back to back. Who knew?
2002 Beloki got second that year. Three in a row.
2003 Second was Ullrich. Third was Vinokourov. Hmm. Fourth was Tyler Hamilton. This could take a while. Haimar Zubeldia was fifth. We have a winner.
2004 Second was Kloden. Have to give it to him I think.
2005 Second was Basso, third was Ullrich. Fourth was Mancebo, who retired immediately upon Operation Puerto being publicised. He's out. Vinokourov was fifth. Leipheimer was sixth. Rasmussen (the latter day Pollentier) was 7th. Ahem. Moving right along. Our Cadel was eighth... So...

Well, that was fun...

You might want to re-think 2004 - Koden was alleged to have used the Freiburg University Clinic for an illegal blood transfusion during the 2006 Tour de France. You can rule out fifth Jose Azevedo becuase he was part of US Postal alleged to have been part of the grand consipiracy & he benefitted from Armstrong in the TT, sixth Mancebo. Think that leaves seventh Georg Totschnig.

The mountains classification for 2004 is similar - rule out (1) Virenque (2) Armstrong (3) Rasmussen (4) Basso (5) Ullrich (6) Moreau (7) Klöden (8) Mancebo (9) Jens Voigt - woo hoo I bet he can't wait to get his polka dot jersey after 8 years.
Image
User avatar
find_bruce
 
Posts: 3732
Joined: Mon May 09, 2011 8:42 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby biker jk » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:01 pm

The USADA will rightly strip Lance Armstrong of his seven TDF "wins". Indeed, all his results from August 1, 1998 will be stripped. Well done USADA. Justice at last.

http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/12712/Travis-Tygart-Interview-Armstrongs-results-from-August-1st-1998-will-be-stripped.aspx
User avatar
biker jk
 
Posts: 2664
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Tornado » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:03 pm

Guilty or not I think the damage is done. Mud sticks. We will probably never know if he ate Azaria Chamberlin or doped.

The USADA strip titles? I don't know who runs who, or who has more power than who. But it feels to me like Team America World Police thinking they can do what ever they want over the top of everyone.

If the UCI is the highest body and the body under which he competed I would assume they are the ones who will ultimately decide his fate.
Image

2012 Avanti Giro 3
2003 GT Palomar
User avatar
Tornado
 
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Apr 12, 2010 11:25 am
Location: Mandurah WA

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby schroeds » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:15 pm

Nobody's commented on what a tragedy this is for our sport. Perhaps that's obvious but it needs saying...again.

Even though the cycling community of course has been following the LA 'case' for some time, the broader public are about to become aware of it big time.

So that's 9 Tour results rendered invalid, right? It's a simply overwhelming number. What does that do to the public view of the world's premier cycling event, and in turn what does that do to the sponsors' view of the value of being associated with it, and how does that affect government support for the sport.

This is bad indeed for anybody that cares about cycling.
Not so much a cyclist...more of a sit down comedian
User avatar
schroeds
 
Posts: 770
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:58 pm

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby il padrone » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:16 pm

Tornado wrote:Guilty or not I think the damage is done. Mud sticks. We will probably never know if he ate Azaria Chamberlin or doped.

The USADA strip titles? I don't know who runs who, or who has more power than who. But it feels to me like Team America World Police thinking they can do what ever they want over the top of everyone.

If the UCI is the highest body and the body under which he competed I would assume they are the ones who will ultimately decide his fate.

+1
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18404
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby cyclotaur » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:33 pm

LA does NOT want the evidence and testimony of others tested publicly, much less in a court. By not contesting it does the hearing go ahead or not? I think the point is that it will not, and therefore others will not be getting up and giving out the evidence against him.

If it was a criminal issue he wouldn't have that option. The best he could do in a criminal case, to prevent all the evidence being heard, is to plead guilty.
Here's my blog - A bit of fun :)
"Riding not racing...."
User avatar
cyclotaur
 
Posts: 749
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:36 pm

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby biker jk » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:34 pm

schroeds wrote:Nobody's commented on what a tragedy this is for our sport. Perhaps that's obvious but it needs saying...again.

Even though the cycling community of course has been following the LA 'case' for some time, the broader public are about to become aware of it big time.

So that's 9 Tour results rendered invalid, right? It's a simply overwhelming number. What does that do to the public view of the world's premier cycling event, and in turn what does that do to the sponsors' view of the value of being associated with it, and how does that affect government support for the sport.

This is bad indeed for anybody that cares about cycling.


Perhaps the good that can come from this is reform of the UCI which presided over that terrible period of blood doping in cycling. The UCI should not be responsible for drug tests. There is a clear conflict of interest as it also promotes and administers the sport of cycling. Drug testing needs to be conducted by an independent body.
User avatar
biker jk
 
Posts: 2664
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby il padrone » Fri Aug 24, 2012 5:48 pm

biker jk wrote:The UCI should not be responsible for drug tests. There is a clear conflict of interest as it also promotes and administers the sport of cycling. Drug testing needs to be conducted by an independent body.

Just to put that into the understanding of the average Joe... like the AFL does not take responsibility for their own drug testing...... ummm :oops:
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18404
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:19 pm

:-) RT @miketomalaris: @ChiaraPasserini Hang on a sec. Does that mean @CadelOfficial is the winner of the 2005 #tdf despite finishing 8th?
The only good Cyclist is a Bicyclist

Huge fan of booted RGers who just can't help themselves
User avatar
The 2nd Womble
 
Posts: 3058
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:21 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby cyclotaur » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:31 pm

schroeds wrote:Nobody's commented on what a tragedy this is for our sport. Perhaps that's obvious but it needs saying...again.
.... This is bad indeed for anybody that cares about cycling.

I couldn't disagree more with this, actually.

LA is the last, and most symbolic, hold-out on the whole issue. Whether he accepts it or not, his discontinuation of the fight against the charges amounts to an admission of guilt. Officially he will now be there with the rest of them, the difference being the others by and large had good reasons to either shut up and accept their sanctions or come out and admit to doping.

LA has, in his own mind at least, good reasons to continue to insist on his own innocence. He is either in denial or feels he has too much to lose, personally and publicly, to face the testimony of others, accept the outcome or admit his guilt. "Never tested positive" has become a meaningless and empty mantra.

Placing Armstrong on the same list as everyone else who's been caught throughout the same period consigns the whole sorry saga of PEDs in cycling further into history, in my opinion. And it makes the rigorously tested riders of today even more admirable, and the sport of cycling can now hold its head up higher in that it does as much as any sport to prevent or detect the decreasing numbers of riders still prepared to chance their arm. I can also understand people who got involved in cycling because of Lance Armstrong being upset, confused, angry or disillusioned - they will now have to find other motivations to stay involved.

But I feel better this afternoon about pro-cycling than I did this morning. The only better thing would be if LA could just come out and say, "OK I did it just like everyone else was doing at the time... and we were all wrong and the sport has thankfully now moved on". But that probably won't ever happen.

I think the simple pleasure of riding, and even competing if you choose, is no different now than yesterday if your motivation comes fundamentally from within, and from the sport itself, and not because of the hero status of anyone else.

The End. :!:
Here's my blog - A bit of fun :)
"Riding not racing...."
User avatar
cyclotaur
 
Posts: 749
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:36 pm

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby The 2nd Womble » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:40 pm

Lance is similar to Vino. He never appologises for anything.
The only good Cyclist is a Bicyclist

Huge fan of booted RGers who just can't help themselves
User avatar
The 2nd Womble
 
Posts: 3058
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2011 1:21 pm
Location: Brisbane

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Baldy » Fri Aug 24, 2012 6:49 pm

cyclotaur wrote:
schroeds wrote:Nobody's commented on what a tragedy this is for our sport. Perhaps that's obvious but it needs saying...again.
.... This is bad indeed for anybody that cares about cycling.

I couldn't disagree more with this, actually.

LA is the last, and most symbolic, hold-out on the whole issue. Whether he accepts it or not, his discontinuation of the fight against the charges amounts to an admission of guilt. Officially he will now be there with the rest of them, the difference being the others by and large had good reasons to either shut up and accept their sanctions or come out and admit to doping.

LA has, in his own mind at least, good reasons to continue to insist on his own innocence. He is either in denial or feels he has too much to lose, personally and publicly, to face the testimony of others, accept the outcome or admit his guilt. "Never tested positive" has become a meaningless and empty mantra.

Placing Armstrong on the same list as everyone else who's been caught throughout the same period consigns the whole sorry saga of PEDs in cycling further into history, in my opinion. And it makes the rigorously tested riders of today even more admirable, and the sport of cycling can now hold its head up higher in that it does as much as any sport to prevent or detect the decreasing numbers of riders still prepared to chance their arm. I can also understand people who got involved in cycling because of Lance Armstrong being upset, confused, angry or disillusioned - they will now have to find other motivations to stay involved.

But I feel better this afternoon about pro-cycling than I did this morning. The only better thing would be if LA could just come out and say, "OK I did it just like everyone else was doing at the time... and we were all wrong and the sport has thankfully now moved on". But that probably won't ever happen.

I think the simple pleasure of riding, and even competing if you choose, is no different now than yesterday if your motivation comes fundamentally from within, and from the sport itself, and not because of the hero status of anyone else.

The End. :!:


Frank Schleck.
Baldy
 
Posts: 1669
Joined: Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:55 pm

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby schroeds » Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:00 pm

cyclotaur wrote: I feel better this afternoon about pro-cycling than I did this morning.

I think the simple pleasure of riding, and even competing if you choose, is no different now than yesterday if your motivation comes fundamentally from within, and from the sport itself, and not because of the hero status of anyone else.



You might feel better but my point is that the people who fund cycling will not.

Yes my pleasure in riding is undented, but I like to watch well prepared (in the pre PED sense of the word), well organised athletes meeting their performance potential. Without ongoing funding that'll be harder.
Not so much a cyclist...more of a sit down comedian
User avatar
schroeds
 
Posts: 770
Joined: Tue Jul 14, 2009 9:58 pm

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby cyclotaur » Fri Aug 24, 2012 7:21 pm

schroeds wrote:
cyclotaur wrote: I feel better this afternoon about pro-cycling than I did this morning.

I think the simple pleasure of riding, and even competing if you choose, is no different now than yesterday if your motivation comes fundamentally from within, and from the sport itself, and not because of the hero status of anyone else.

You might feel better but my point is that the people who fund cycling will not.

Yes my pleasure in riding is undented, but I like to watch well prepared (in the pre PED sense of the word), well organised athletes meeting their performance potential. Without ongoing funding that'll be harder.

Do you mean the post-PED period? Because there really was no pre-PED period - it was a problem that grew gradually from the classic 'bombs' given to the earliest competitors in the sport (and I mean the earliest...) to a fully-blown, pharmaceutical-backed system of team and individual performance enhancement.

So what you are watching now is actually what you think you were watching at an earlier time. NOW is the best and the cleanest we've ever had, and that's why I feel better tonight than I did this morning.

And I take the point about Frank Schleck but, with respect, he's not in the same league as LA - for many reasons.
Here's my blog - A bit of fun :)
"Riding not racing...."
User avatar
cyclotaur
 
Posts: 749
Joined: Wed Jan 26, 2011 12:36 pm

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby clackers » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:00 pm

Baldy wrote:
Frank Schleck.


Another one who denied any wrong doing.
User avatar
clackers
 
Posts: 1962
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 10:48 am
Location: Melbourne

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby biker jk » Fri Aug 24, 2012 8:07 pm

David Walsh has some damning comments about the journalists who bought the LA myth hook, line and sinker.

“In 2004 I was meant to travel in a car that had an American writer, a British writer and an Australian writer and I had travelled with them many times. I first travelled with the English journalist back in 1984, if memory serves me. They didn’t want me in the car because Armstrong’s team had made it known to them that they wouldn’t get a lot of cooperation if I was in the car. And rather than stand by journalism they chose to do what was expedient but that’s what people did. Pretty much every English speaking journalist on the Tour in those early Armstrong years was in one way or another trying to defend Armstrong.”

“When you think of all the nonsense we had to listen to about Armstrong being faster than Pantani in '98. Armstrong goes and rides a faster Tour a year later and you have all these idiot journalists saying, well the roads and the bikes are better, it’s logical. It was all completely illogical and if they were being honest they would have known this.”

“You still see it today. There are still some journalists going out from England to cover the Tour who half believe that Armstrong is innocent, who have been defending him. Complete buffoons.”


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/david-walsh-on-armstrong-and-usadas-charges
User avatar
biker jk
 
Posts: 2664
Joined: Tue Nov 17, 2009 5:18 pm
Location: Sydney

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby Xplora » Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:19 pm

cyclotaur wrote:LA does NOT want the evidence and testimony of others tested publicly, much less in a court.

I think part of his argument is that the evidence couldn't be tested fairly by USADA, and the tests that HAVE been done are ignored by them. It seems clear that drugs are a part of professional cycling, and sport in general. I can't afford the diet to be a truly amazing athlete, let alone the supplements and training. Cycling has at least recognised that these feats are almost impossible to achieve. No one is mentioning the teams, just the lead riders... the whole thing is an embarrassment, and I think the sports federations need to either say "test OK, that's it" or continually face this kind of circus.
Xplora
 
Posts: 6086
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:33 pm
Location: TL;DR

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby il padrone » Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:29 pm

cyclotaur wrote: Because there really was no pre-PED period - it was a problem that grew gradually from the classic 'bombs' given to the earliest competitors in the sport (and I mean the earliest...) to a fully-blown, pharmaceutical-backed system of team and individual performance enhancement.

So what you are watching now is actually what you think you were watching at an earlier time. NOW is the best and the cleanest we've ever had, and that's why I feel better tonight than I did this morning.

So in a couple of sentences you just trash the whole history of the TdF and pro-cycling generally :o :? . Merckx, Anquetil, LeMond, Fignon, Hinault, Indurain, Ulrich.... all on the juice ??

OK, well that just destroys any faith (and interest) in the concept of cycle-sport competition. And there is no reason to believe that anything is different, despite the urgent proclamations of how "clean" the sport is now. Why should any fans care now?

[edit] Anyway, maybe time we merged this thread with the one that already exists??
Riding bikes in traffic - what seems dangerous is usually safe; what seems safe is often more dangerous.
User avatar
il padrone
 
Posts: 18404
Joined: Mon Apr 07, 2008 11:57 pm
Location: Heading for home.

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby RonK » Fri Aug 24, 2012 9:44 pm

So, Armstrong has cheated me yet again.

First by doping to win the TDF 7 times.

Now by refusing to face the evidence against him that he did indeed win by doping.

I was once one of your biggest fans Mr Armstrong. Now I think you are a lying, cheating mongrel.
Cycle touring blog and tour journals: whispering wheels...
User avatar
RonK
 
Posts: 5352
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 2:08 pm
Location: Brisbane, Queensland

Re: HOLY showtime!!! Amstrong accepts life ban!!!

Postby greyhoundtom » Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:09 pm

I have never had any false illusions about drug use in athletic competitions, Olympic games or cycling.

I also have no doubt that LA used PED’s during his cycling career, and while others may dismiss the level playing field scenario, to me it makes perfect sense.

LA won 7 TdF, against all competition, and that still makes him the greatest as far as I’m concerned.

The next crop of athletes will be looking at genetic manipulation instead of PED’s and that will not only be just about impossible to detect, but will also be carried forward into their offspring.

If anyone thinks that professional cycling or any other professional athletic competition is going to be all nice and clean and above board from here on in, they need to get their heads out of the sand.
User avatar
greyhoundtom
 
Posts: 2545
Joined: Sun May 31, 2009 6:28 am
Location: Narre Warren, Victoria

PreviousNext

Return to General discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Aushiker, billy70



Popular Bike Shops
Torpedo 7 Torpedo7 AU
Ground Effect Ground Effect NZ
Chain Reaction Cycles CRC UK
Wiggle Wiggle UK
Ebay Ebay AU

“Bicycles BNA Twitter
“Bicycles BNA Facebook
“Google+ BNA Google+
“Bicycles BNA Newsletter

> FREE BNA Stickers
> BNA Cycling Kit