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il padrone wrote:Totally unwilling to rely on Today Tonight for any sort of legal opinion

This.

BigPete wrote:In Queensland the Criminal Code states you can't leave a child under twelve unattended, and carries a maximum penalty of three years’ jail.

It’s a serious breach that’s lost on many parents.

This is what the statute actually says:

364A Leaving a child under 12 unattended
(1) A person who, having the lawful care or charge of a child
under 12 years, leaves the child for an unreasonable time
without making reasonable provision for the supervision and
care of the child during that time commits a misdemeanour.
Maximum penalty—3 years imprisonment.
(2) Whether the time is unreasonable depends on all the relevant
circumstances.

So it's against the law, as a parent, to let your kid out of your sight unless you make reasonable provision. I'm sure you could have a lively debate about what "reasonable provision" means, not to mention "unreasonable time". I'm not aware of any caselaw, not that I've really looked. My admittedly subjective and inexpert opinion is that this is directed at stupendously dumb acts that fall short of outright cruelty and it's worded broadly enough to catch most, and hopefully all, modalities of dumbness. Wowsers will not doubt seize on this as some sort of blanket prohibition on leaving kids unsupervised. On its face, it's no such thing. I'm happy to be convinced otherwise by considered discussion of relevant statute and caselaw

high_tea wrote:This is what the statute actually says:

Thank you for that, enjoy this virtual beer.

FWIW, I concur with your interpretation and hope that magistrates have the commons to do so as well.

high_tea.

Please do not cut and paste text from a web site that I have referenced and then attribute that to what I wrote.
My reference to the site was to show that there are people who have a similar view to myself, in that this law can catch people who are otherwise law abiding.

high_tea wrote:

BigPete wrote:In Queensland the Criminal Code states you can't leave a child under twelve unattended, and carries a maximum penalty of three years’ jail.

It’s a serious breach that’s lost on many parents.

This is what the statute actually says:

364A Leaving a child under 12 unattended
(1) A person who, having the lawful care or charge of a child
under 12 years, leaves the child for an unreasonable time
without making reasonable provision for the supervision and
care of the child during that time commits a misdemeanour.
Maximum penalty—3 years imprisonment.
(2) Whether the time is unreasonable depends on all the relevant
circumstances.

You also wrote:-

high_tea wrote: I recall reading that someone got charged. It ended up in court and they were, as I recall, unconditionally discharged. I don't know if the judgment was reported or not. That suggests, though that a bit of common sense is being applied. You'd hope so, with such a broad law.

This backs up to a degree, what I have been suggesting in this thread. As far as I am aware there have been 3 people charged for leaving children alone in cars under S364A. They all pleaded guilty but no conviction was recorded. The fact that they weren’t convicted is not the point here. These parents have suffered the humiliation and anguish that goes with being charged and of having to appear in court. I for one don’t want to go through that just because some citizen, head teacher or police feel I am neglecting my child.
I stick with my view that society is discouraging children to cycle to school.

I just don't get what the difference is between a parent sitting in a car with kids driving to school and a parent sitting on a bike riding with his children to school.

Sure, society may frown on children being unaccompanied in public but I can't see any reason why a parent can't ride a bike next to his kids.

Can somebody help me here?

BigPete wrote:high_tea.

Please do not cut and paste text from a web site that I have referenced and then attribute that to what I wrote.

I apologise for the misattribution.

What you in fact said was:

The law basically says that children under 12 can not be left alone for an unreasonable time. So in theory parents can be negligent if their child (under 12) is alone in the house, in the back/front yard, walking to school or shops, while paying for petrol at the service station or any other number of places.

Today Tonight may be with you there, but the statute is not.

My reference to the site was to show that there are people who have a similar view to myself, in that this law can catch people who are otherwise law abiding.

What's your point? That this law proscribes behaviour that would otherwise be lawful? I'm with you there, but what of it?

high_tea wrote:

BigPete wrote:In Queensland the Criminal Code states you can't leave a child under twelve unattended, and carries a maximum penalty of three years’ jail.

It’s a serious breach that’s lost on many parents.

This is what the statute actually says:

364A Leaving a child under 12 unattended
(1) A person who, having the lawful care or charge of a child
under 12 years, leaves the child for an unreasonable time
without making reasonable provision for the supervision and
care of the child during that time commits a misdemeanour.
Maximum penalty—3 years imprisonment.
(2) Whether the time is unreasonable depends on all the relevant
circumstances.

You also wrote:-

high_tea wrote: I recall reading that someone got charged. It ended up in court and they were, as I recall, unconditionally discharged. I don't know if the judgment was reported or not. That suggests, though that a bit of common sense is being applied. You'd hope so, with such a broad law.

This backs up to a degree, what I have been suggesting in this thread. As far as I am aware there have been 3 people charged for leaving children alone in cars under S364A. They all pleaded guilty but no conviction was recorded. The fact that they weren’t convicted is not the point here. These parents have suffered the humiliation and anguish that goes with being charged and of having to appear in court. I for one don’t want to go through that just because some citizen, head teacher or police feel I am neglecting my child.
I stick with my view that society is discouraging children to cycle to school.

According to the Courier-Mail (http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/quee ... 6382642419) two (maybe three? one article isn't clear on the point) people have been absolutely discharged. IOW, they may have been technically guilty, but the appropriate penalty was nothing. There's a big, big difference between being absolutely discharged and just having no conviction recorded. I think we've heard the last of people being charged for that kind of conduct. I can't see the police going to the trouble over similar conduct in the future, not when the court's reaction is to do absolutely nothing.

Society may well discourage children from cycling to school, but this law has nothing to do with that argument.

I remember riding unaccompanied to school well under the age of 12. What the hell is the problem with this all of a sudden?

DS

I find it odd that most people say this is a thing of today vs yesteryear. When I was going to primary school it was 3 blocks away in a dead end suburb. By that I mean there was on road in and out, so no through traffic, north epping in sydney. The only time I was allowed to ride to school was my very last day there. At least our house backed onto national park and we had free reign there.
Now aways my 5 year old is a .little further from school in a far busier suburb and rides every day unless its raining. At that age my wife or I walk with him each day, but it seems far safer that the melee that is the school run parking outside the school.
I can only hope that my parents concerns were an exception all years ago, was late 70's early 80's.

I'm so amazingly confused about all this stuff about unaccompanied children in public.

I was 8 when was walking to the bus stop and catching a bus into the Perth CBD and out to school. I also rode my bicycle around the neighbourhood alone. This was hardly unique.


The law mentioned is supposed to cover leaving a child a DAY or more alone. Not a few hours.

Worth bearing in mind that a kid under 12 is actually less likely to have issues with cars because they can ride the footpath if they choose. If my lad was a maniac I'd suggest the road because I would not want to have to have an argument in court as to whether or not my child was liable for driving into a sidedoor....

Then again, I think the benefits of recording your child's ride when the cameras are so cheap if they are riding a short distance to school is probably worth its weight in gold

I just noticed in the school info pack for new starters that it says that under 10s cannot ride to school, it is illegal. I am sure they are talking about unaccompanied, but still not very well worded.

It's an absolute joke these days, I was approx 7 and rode quite a fair distance to school. The way people carry on, there is an ax murder on every corner.

Graeme

GraemeL wrote:It's an absolute joke these days, I was approx 7 and rode quite a fair distance to school. The way people carry on, there is an ax murder on every corner.

Graeme

it's blame the victim mentality gone nuts!

GraemeL wrote:It's an absolute joke these days, I was approx 7 and rode quite a fair distance to school. The way people carry on, there is an ax murder on every corner.

Graeme

For sure. I rode to school on my own in Brisbane from Grade 3. In grade 1 & 2 I caught the bus, but would have ridden if we lived closer.

I ride to school with my daughter now and she loves it. She's in grade 2 and is 7 years old. We did it a few times last year, but since getting her a 3 speed mini-mountain bike she finds the hills a lot easier. We only ride about 1.5km each way, but it's much quicker than walking. Very few bikes in the bike racks, which is sad. I continue on to the city, then call in to school and collect her and we ride home together. When my youngest starts prep next year, I'll get her riding as soon as she is capable.

In one of the first Travelsmart programs run in (South of) Perth they tried to encourage people to walk, ride, bus it more. This included helping people learn their local bus routes, provide timetables, so on. At a local primary school they surveyed those who drove in, there were lots of sad cases living within a km that drove in, the winner was someone who lived only 85 metres from the school. At that distance it isn't even worth looking for the bike helmet and lock to ride in let alone bundle everyone into the car, seatbelts on, reverse out, drive, find a parking spot, get your kids across the road amongst all the other mothers and mo-fos in the school drop off zone then go through it all again to drive home.

Most hadn't considered public transport at all for themselves or their kids let alone biking it. This was in a suburbia bordered by freeway and major highways but with a lot of bus and even ferries running, plus major cyclepath networks used by commuters from suburbs further out. You could say that those travelling through this patch were using bikes and buses more because it was more economical in time and money, those living within weren't under as much pressure as they lived closer to the CBD so they just never really bothered to look at other options. It's the plain lazy in us that makes a suburb of car owners a suburb of car drivers.

We had our "introduction" night last night at my daughter's new school.

There are no busses servicing the school. Zero. Although the principal mentioned that some students regularly get picked up by taxi, which the school knows about and monitors closely.

One Dad inquired about kids walking home alone. Everybody was aghast at the idea. Admittedly, in context, we're talking about 5-year-olds in their first year at school, and the guy was more concerned that his child has an over-inflated sense of independence and navigation, and might be prone to making a run for home if not watched closely. But really, there's plenty of houses within a (quiet backstreets) block of the school - I was expecting at least some comment that "some parents start letting their kids walk home alone in year x, but that's up to you and your child and blah blah". Nope.

The principal was very welcoming to my wife's offer of starting a walking school bus - starting one, that is, because there is none yet. A WSB would suit us well... our plan is to walk (750m) to school with her every day, rain hail or shine (we're in Ballarat, so there's plenty of the first two ). We're close to the catchment boundary in our direction (we're about half way between two primary schools), so there's not much penalty in picking up a few more kids along the way... and it raises the option of having a roster of parents, so we doesn't have to do it every single day. We already have three starters; our next door neighbour's kid starts next year, as does another friend around the corner, so that's three less cars fighting for prime parking position.

Of course, once the kids know how to ride bikes and stuff, the walk to school will get a bit of mechanical assistance.

A bit surprised at how "helicopter"-ish the school culture is. I thought our area - one of the nicer pockets of inner Ballarat - was reasonably progressive and more likely to have at least an undercurrent of free-range parenting. Oh well, I guess it will be up to me to subvert the dominant paradigm...

tim

Hey Barefoot - I went to primary school in Ballarat in the dim dark past. unfortunately my old school is no more. I think it got the chop into apartments (St Joey's - Lyons Street)

cp123 wrote:Hey Barefoot - I went to primary school in Ballarat in the dim dark past. unfortunately my old school is no more. I think it got the chop into apartments (St Joey's - Lyons Street)

I've only been here 10 years (so it's still another 4 generations or so before my family are real locals)... I don't know any remnant schools on Lyons, so they must have done a good job of it

It's a great cycling town now

tim

If we are so scared of having our kids walk or ride to school, aren't appropriate measures called 'teaching your child how to ride a bike, understand road rules and ride defensively' appropriate measures?

I remember riding with friends to school in year 2. I'm trying to give my daughter the same freedom and enjoyment. The most challenging thing at her school is affluenza and dodging all of the expensive luxury vehicles vying for precious car spaces. I believe her life is richer because we ride when we can. Next year, when my young bloke is in ELC, we will be riding every day (~3km each way); rain, hail and shine; dress or sports uniform. I might have to sponsor a roof over the bike racks, float the idea of a cycling education programme and water down this whole children remain supervised until parents arrive thing (only to cater for when they're riding their bikes) to prove a point too.

The sense of freedom, enjoyment and independence that kids get when riding their bikes is immeasurable.

I got a 10 speed racer for christmas the year before I started high school simply so I could ride to school, both my brothers got the same thing.

And we were not the only family that did it this way.

We lived in the foothills of the Adelaide Hills and was a bit hilly to ride primary school so we walked. We had to be pretty sick to get a lift home, more often than not if Mum had to pick us up she would just walk up the hill and get us.

Roinik wrote:The most challenging thing at her school is affluenza and dodging all of the expensive luxury vehicles vying for precious car spaces.

I think it's worth putting something to the P&C etc... a kid is more than physically capable of walking a distance to school, and it is not like kids walking are any less vulnerable than kids riding bikes.

Roinik wrote:If we are so scared of having our kids walk or ride to school, aren't appropriate measures called 'teaching your child how to ride a bike, understand road rules and ride defensively' appropriate measures?

What you mean be responsible for raising our children...

What rubbish are you talking about.

That is the school system and teachers jobs

barefoot wrote:A bit surprised at how "helicopter"-ish the school culture is. I thought our area - one of the nicer pockets of inner Ballarat - was reasonably progressive and more likely to have at least an undercurrent of free-range parenting. Oh well, I guess it will be up to me to subvert the dominant paradigm...

tim

Actually, it doesn't really surprise me at all. To me, the most dangerous thing about many schools is the urban warfare that goes on in the street outside the school, with multiple Landcruisers, X5s, MLs, Cayennes, other SUVs of all sorts double parking and suddenly U-turning. It's scary!