Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby arkle » Fri Oct 19, 2012 9:53 pm

Ironically enough there are similar worries about the use of "performance enhancing" drugs in competitive (even club level) chess! One of the biggest enemies in chess is the significant physiological changes that occur during a game (my RHR is 50 but at times during a game my HR can easily exceed 130 even though I'm sitting still) and which cloud clear thinking. Beta blockers and mild tranquilisers are terrific aids in chess play.

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by BNA » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:10 pm

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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby sogood » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:10 pm

No less. HSC exam was topical earlier in the week and I understand ADHD medicine are popular with exam takers, one that exerts significant performance benefits to the candidates. Glad I didn't have such opponents during the times when I sat regular exams.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby HelmutHerr » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:26 pm

sogood wrote:No less. HSC exam was topical earlier in the week and I understand ADHD medicine are popular with exam takers, one that exerts significant performance benefits to the candidates. Glad I didn't have such opponents during the times when I sat regular exams.

ADHD medicines have what's known as a paradoxical effect in pre-adolescents and people with ADDs, but usual stimulatory effects otherwise, so they're not much use as a study aid for most teenagers.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby Tornado » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:27 pm

zero wrote:
Tornado wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote: then get a TUE.

Hi

What is a TUE? I'm assuming it's a declare it and seek an exemption type thing. Not sure.


Therapeutic use exemption.

Thanks zero. Those 3 words are explanation enough
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby sogood » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:29 pm

HelmutHerr wrote:ADHD medicines have what's known as a paradoxical effect in pre-adolescents and people with ADDs, but usual stimulatory effects otherwise, so they're not much use as a study aid for most teenagers.

I understand they are effective for exam performance, not so much for study time.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby HelmutHerr » Fri Oct 19, 2012 10:33 pm

sogood wrote:I understand they are effective for exam performance, not so much for study time.

That may be the case. I haven't taken speed and sat an exam to find out!
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:14 am

arkle wrote:Ironically enough there are similar worries about the use of "performance enhancing" drugs in competitive (even club level) chess! One of the biggest enemies in chess is the significant physiological changes that occur during a game (my RHR is 50 but at times during a game my HR can easily exceed 130 even though I'm sitting still) and which cloud clear thinking. Beta blockers and mild tranquilisers are terrific aids in chess play.

arkle

Chess is not a signatory to the WADA code AFAIK, however beta blockers are prohibited in competition for a range of sports/games (including Bridge):
• Aeronautic (FAI)
• Archery (FITA) (also prohibited Out-of-Competition)
• Automobile (FIA)
• Billiards (all disciplines) (WCBS)
• Boules (CMSB)
• Bridge (FMB)
• Darts (WDF)
• Golf (IGF)
• Ninepin and Tenpin Bowling (FIQ)
• Powerboating (UIM)
• Shooting (ISSF, IPC) (also prohibited Out-of-Competition)
• Skiing/Snowboarding (FIS) in ski jumping, freestyle aerials/halfpipe and snowboard halfpipe/big air
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby schroeds » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:43 am

I think it's likely and utterly appropriate that this whole issue has got all sorts of sporting governing and organising bodies thinking about the drugs in their sport and their roles in permitting/controlling them. I hope this is a wake up call for all those who have been looking the other way.

There are clearly ethical and well as legal and health dimensions to the debate. They might well be lead forward by the likes of Taylor Phinney who drew attention to the subject on Saturday when he tweeted shortly after BMC Racing Team-mate Steve Cummings raced to victory on the final stage of the race. “I love to see @StevoCummings win. He, like me, follows his own personal policy of no caffeine pills and no painkillers. Purest of the pure!”

Later in a story in Velonation: "“Some people find it surprising that riders would take pain killers or caffeine pills in races, but it is actually really, really common,” he explained, speaking by phone from Italy. “In my first year I tried pain killers a couple of times in races, stuff like Tylenol, but I didn't really get it. Yet there are a lot of guys who do it regularly.

“I’ve always been someone who likes to rely on my own body to solve any sort of sickness, a cold or fever, as opposed to just jumping into taking Tylenol or whatever. So I wasn’t really comfortable with the whole painkiller/caffeine type of thing. In addition to that, it just felt uncomfortable that I would be fooling my body into feeling something that it wasn’t supposed to be feeling.

“Particularly with everything that has gone on in the past, I think that if we move away from taking anything, we have a great opportunity to become pretty much the cleanest professional sport out there.

“I feel comfortable talking about this right now, in light of recent events.”

Read more: http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13076 ... z29mdezAwC


Way to go forward, Taylor :D I'm still unsure about the role of drugs in the creative arts though! Although there's no winner across the line (usually), the arts are very competitive, it's still ethically murky to use potentially dangerous PEDs to make a better painting than your rivals.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby Bentnose » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:16 am

Unless you're competing at a national level you don't need to worry about drug testing. I was taking steroids for a reflux problem and still racing at a state level but when I started doing more national events I needed a TUE for a cortisone nasal spray I needed. Never got drug tested though, I was meant to once when I placed at a national round but all that happened was I got a letter saying I tested negative, never actually gave a sample though so I think they made a mistake in not testing me.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby AndrewBurns » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:23 am

Bentnose wrote:I was meant to once when I placed at a national round but all that happened was I got a letter saying I tested negative, never actually gave a sample though so I think they made a mistake in not testing me.


Or maybe you're part of the conspiracy!
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby sogood » Sat Oct 20, 2012 8:52 am

schroeds wrote:I think it's likely and utterly appropriate that this whole issue has got all sorts of sporting governing and organising bodies thinking about the drugs in their sport and their roles in permitting/controlling them. I hope this is a wake up call for all those who have been looking the other way.

+1.

I understand through the media that the WADA is having a word with US's NBL. Bigger $$$ than cycling and lax anti-doping implementation. No need to guess.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby HelmutHerr » Sat Oct 20, 2012 9:16 am

schroeds wrote:I'm still unsure about the role of drugs in the creative arts though! Although there's no winner across the line (usually), the arts are very competitive, it's still ethically murky to use potentially dangerous PEDs to make a better painting than your rivals.

Obligatory Bill Hicks link.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby ColinOldnCranky » Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:32 am

Hmmm. Is taking medications for conditions that exercise could better address doping?

"I have to take these for my heart because I can get some health advantage that otherwise would require me to eat better and exercise more. And I don't really wanna do those hard yards".

Hmmm.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby schroeds » Sat Oct 20, 2012 11:41 am

sogood wrote: I understand through the media that the WADA is having a word with US's NBL. Bigger $$$ than cycling and lax anti-doping implementation. No need to guess.


Rugby League, anyone? :shock:
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:03 pm

schroeds wrote:
sogood wrote: I understand through the media that the WADA is having a word with US's NBL. Bigger $$$ than cycling and lax anti-doping implementation. No need to guess.


Rugby League, anyone? :shock:

NRL & AFL have long running contracts with ASADA to run doping control test programs for them.

Neither are likely to be an Olympic sport (although AFL at the Olympics would be pretty funny), and so are under no obligation to submit to WADA code, they can have their own code.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby old al » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:46 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
old al wrote:Rhetorical question Alex. I do not use anything except caffeine in my morning coffee. By the way, is there a maximum amount of caffeine allowance. Can you get done for excessive caffeine in your body at a drug test?

Homework assignment:
Download and have a look at the WADA prohibited list, and then also the list of substances that are under active consideration for inclusion?

You'll find your answer there.

Research and report back.

Well, just got back from our Saturday morning coffee ride and did my homework. That list is incredible! No wonder drug testing is such a hit and miss proposition. Best thing is I couldn't find Caffeine anywhere! At least not yet, it is under consideration. So it's a giant mug of coffee before the club handicap tomorrow. Going to have a big go at the first over 65 fueled by caffeine! :mrgreen:

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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby yarravalleyplodder » Sat Oct 20, 2012 12:53 pm

sport is a physical challenge against yourself and others, creating music is not

I would also argue strongly that drugs in music has been beneficial to society, David Bowie, The Beatles and the Rolling Stones music was greatly enhanced by drug use and they (along with others) pushed the boundaries of modern music and inspired millions across the globe. They also never trotted around claiming not to have used drugs either
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby BrizJames » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:03 pm

I`m insulin controlled, which is anobolic,and yes it does/did work. How do wives handle testosterone patches?
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby schroeds » Sat Oct 20, 2012 2:45 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote: NRL & AFL have long running contracts with ASADA to run doping control test programs for them.

Neither are likely to be an Olympic sport (although AFL at the Olympics would be pretty funny), and so are under no obligation to submit to WADA code, they can have their own code.


Alex, who the bureaucrats happen to be and under what jurisdiction they operate isn't really the point! Point is, those sports may well be populated by drug cheats and the organising bodies may or may not be providing 'look the other way' cover for the athletes involved.

@Yarravalleyplodder, drugs also killed plenty of artists - isn't part of the purpose of regulation to protect the well being of participants? To extend your argument drugs in cycling was beneficial cycling because Lance Armstrong put in some amazing performances and inspired millions of cyclists?
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:26 pm

schroeds wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote: NRL & AFL have long running contracts with ASADA to run doping control test programs for them.

Neither are likely to be an Olympic sport (although AFL at the Olympics would be pretty funny), and so are under no obligation to submit to WADA code, they can have their own code.


Alex, who the bureaucrats happen to be and under what jurisdiction they operate isn't really the point! Point is, those sports may well be populated by drug cheats and the organising bodies may or may not be providing 'look the other way' cover for the athletes involved.

Not sure I understand. Sogood mentioned WADA starting up talks with the NBL, and then you wondered about rugby league - so I simply pointed out that the NRL already have an arrangement with an independent body (ASADA) for doping control. I made no comment as to whether or not that control is as effective as it might be.

It may or may not be depending on how you view the number of positives - RL is in the top two sports with doping infractions along with body building.
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby schroeds » Sat Oct 20, 2012 4:11 pm

Fair enough... I went from NBL to NFL without taking the detour through ASADA! It does feel a little like cycling has become the story du jour (thanks Lance) and while I believe this is good for our sport, I'm thinking the whole issue should be sending ripples further and wider in sport.

Alex what do you think about Frank Conciecao''s comments in todays SMH speculating there may be PEDs used down to C grade club level?
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby Oxford » Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:12 pm

schroeds wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote: NRL & AFL have long running contracts with ASADA to run doping control test programs for them.

Neither are likely to be an Olympic sport (although AFL at the Olympics would be pretty funny), and so are under no obligation to submit to WADA code, they can have their own code.


Alex, who the bureaucrats happen to be and under what jurisdiction they operate isn't really the point! Point is, those sports may well be populated by drug cheats and the organising bodies may or may not be providing 'look the other way' cover for the athletes involved.

@Yarravalleyplodder, drugs also killed plenty of artists - isn't part of the purpose of regulation to protect the well being of participants? To extend your argument drugs in cycling was beneficial cycling because Lance Armstrong put in some amazing performances and inspired millions of cyclists?

additionally, those sports receive government funding (and lots of it). should tax money be paid to a sport that hides drug cheats?
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Oct 20, 2012 5:48 pm

schroeds wrote:Alex what do you think about Frank Conciecao''s comments in todays SMH speculating there may be PEDs used down to C grade club level?

It's Frank's way of talking up Heffron racing.

If anyone truly has information/intelligence about doping, they should be going here:
https://www.asada.gov.au/stampoutdoping/index.php
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby schroeds » Sat Oct 20, 2012 7:06 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
schroeds wrote:Alex what do you think about Frank Conciecao''s comments in todays SMH speculating there may be PEDs used down to C grade club level?

It's Frank's way of talking up Heffron racing.


LOL :lol: I thought it was pretty outrageous...perhaps somebody should tell him this might not be the best time to be stirring the pot on the cover of the SMH!! :oops:
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Re: Performance enhancing drugs ok for non sportspeople?

Postby richbee » Mon Oct 22, 2012 9:48 am

old al wrote:Rhetorical question Alex. I do not use anything except caffeine in my morning coffee. By the way, is there a maximum amount of caffeine allowance. Can you get done for excessive caffeine in your body at a drug test?

Methinks the amount of coffee required to register an abnormal caffeine reading would not be conducive to competitive cycling.
But a couple of Red Bull's should do the trick :wink:

I believe the upper limit for caffeine used to be 12mg per litre of urine prior to 2004, but it is no longer a prohibited substance. It is however monitored for misuse by WADA. I'm not too sure on this, but I think only three athletes have ever been sanctioned for caffeine use prior to 2004.
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