Doping in C-grade ?

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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby Eleri » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:44 am

If anyone has evidence of doping at any level of racing whether it be C Grade at Heffron or anywhere else, you should report it.

If you know it's happening, as some people here seem to be implying, then here is how you report it confidentially http://www.asada.gov.au/rules_and_violations/intelligence.html .

If you know it's happening and you don't report it - you are part of the problem. Don't turn a blind eye.

If you are talking through your hat - just shut up because you are further denigrating the sport of cycling.
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by BNA » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:53 am

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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby ni78ck » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:53 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
ni78ck wrote:after reading afew post on C grade a heffron, it prompted me to make a call to a friend of mine who was in the race and finished with the peleton.
his average speed was 39.6 km/h. on that circuit thats not slow! no weekend warriors here...............
B grade had an average of 42.5km/h

Heffron last two Saturdays - B Grade - winners:
20 Oct: 37.9km/h
13 Oct: 38.7 km/h

i was refering to tuesday, not saturday.
i should have been clearer :shock:
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby ni78ck » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:54 am

Nobody wrote:
ni78ck wrote:i was out at heffron on tuesday night and...i could see someone doping in C grade...
You did? Who was it? :mrgreen:

:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sat Oct 27, 2012 11:13 am

ni78ck wrote:
Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
ni78ck wrote:after reading afew post on C grade a heffron, it prompted me to make a call to a friend of mine who was in the race and finished with the peleton.
his average speed was 39.6 km/h. on that circuit thats not slow! no weekend warriors here...............
B grade had an average of 42.5km/h

Heffron last two Saturdays - B Grade - winners:
20 Oct: 37.9km/h
13 Oct: 38.7 km/h

i was refering to tuesday, not saturday.
i should have been clearer :shock:

I know you were, that was my point. B grade on a Saturday (whilst it is a scratch race) is slower than C grade on Tuesday.

The corresponding C grade average winning speeds for last 2 Saturdays at Heffron were:
36.2km/h
36.3km/h
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby ni78ck » Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:59 pm

tuesdays really are a step or two up :shock:
i will go down there this arvo and have a look, hipefully ill be racing next tuesday! :)
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby vander » Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:44 pm

Christine Tham wrote:
foo on patrol wrote:I think most people are missing the point here. You will always have varying degrees of fast/slow in between as far as speed goes, in all the different places that races are held, it's all about the demographics of the meets and who is racing in that area. :wink: It has been this way since I was racing 30yrs ago and it sure as hell is not going to change now or in the future. :roll:


Yes, but that wasn't the point.

All races are different before of situational factors that you mentioned, as well as the nature of the race itself. Certain races do have a reputation for intensity, and some are attracted to them because of the intensity.

To me, the issue is whether a race is so tough it's no longer "true to the label" (the grade). To me if a "C" grade race is so tough only B grade riders could survive in it, then it's mislabelled and should be corrected.

I have no idea if this is what Alex was implying. At one stage, it seemed that he was, which is why I questioned it.

I have no issues with people engaging in chest-beating about how tough a race is and how the less able drop out, and quoting numbers etc.

But when someone, especially a "professional", make generalisations that could be demotivational to others I do take issue and will ask for substantiation.


C grade just means that it is the third toughest group on that day. What you race elsewhere is immaterial, yes you may race in B grade elsewhere because you are the equivalent of the second toughest field there. B grade riders at Heffron race B grade at Heffron, because that is their relative strength. It seems like you would prefer the grades named A+, A and B. Would that suit you more. The label is to reflect the fact that it is the 3rd toughest field there not that it is the equivalent of C grade elsewhere. If you had all those riders in 2 grades A and B as you would have (I presume) then you would have carnage with crashes all over the place cause of the numbers on a tight course.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby cpical » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:24 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Where I live they call my level of races " courses des patapons "... my French wife doesn't even know what that means!, but basic translation is Clown Races ...



Monsieur longues jambes, il y a patapons et patapons, attention!!! :evil: :mrgreen:
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby toolonglegs » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:59 pm

Perfect person to explain to me what it means :-) ... My wife hadn't got a clue!.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby greyhoundtom » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:01 pm

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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby hkgts » Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:50 pm

Christine Tham wrote:The reason I am passionate about this is that one of the aims of this cycling forum is to encourage cycling at all levels. That's one of the reasons I agreed to be a moderator.


Christine you need to dismiss yourself from this debate. As someone new to cycling/racing in the last 18 months, I can assure you that the tone in your posts are not meeting your objective of being a moderator on this forum.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby winstonw » Sun Oct 28, 2012 6:46 am

In another thread, it was mentioned Australian grades can be matched to US categories, which are guided by FTP watts/kg.
I think C grade was accepted as 3-3.5watts/kg.

However, this is far from satisfactory.
A 70kg racer will do 34-37kph.
A 90kg racer will do 38-41kph.

If a WW can generate these speeds, then they'd presumably be competitive.

Now we have a more objective criteria for determining what % of WWs could race c grade.
Hands up if you know a 90kg WW who can sustain 41kph for an hour.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Oct 28, 2012 7:41 am

winstonw wrote:In another thread, it was mentioned Australian grades can be matched to US categories, which are guided by FTP watts/kg.
I think C grade was accepted as 3-3.5watts/kg.

No, they are not.

What determines your category level in the USA (and many other countries) are your race results and points accumulated from racing.

When you first start racing, you are required to start as a Cat 5, race and earn enough starts/places to gather the points needed to be upgrade to Cat 4. Then the process repeats. For Cat 5, you get points for finishing, and part of the process of earning points at that level is simply gaining racing experience before you are permitted to race in the higher categories. Naturally, Cat 5 have people of widely varying levels of fitness, plus those that are simply not fit enough to race at higher categories.

From Cat 4 and up, then you actually need to start gathering points based on results in order to earn your category upgrade. This is typically done in geographical divisions, e.g. NorCal (northern California) or State boundaries, sometimes several states combined. As a result, due to the variance in racing numbers / depth of fields, even this does not end up producing equality across the country. A Cat 3 in one division may be at Cat 2 standard elsewhere but if they travelled to another division, they would still have to race Cat 3 (and they may well clean up). If they stayed there, eventually they would accumulate enough points to be upgraded.

Power outputs are not and never will be used as a grading mechanism. All the W/kg numbers refer to is the typical power of riders that race in those categories, but it's quite a wide band. e.g. in some districts, you won't win a hilly Cat 3 road race without an hour power of ~5W/kg.

If you want to know what grade you should be racing in Australia (and you are not sure), then just go race. If you win by a country mile, then smile for the after race photo, take your $20 envelope, brag to your significant other all night simultaneously explaining why you need those new deep section carbon wheels, and turn up next week in the next grade up. If however you get dropped pretty quickly, then drop down a grade.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Simple really.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:04 am

Back to more serious matters, doping at lower levels.

Have a read of these three items:
http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/08/ ... hgh_232611
http://www.outsideonline.com/fitness/Dr ... l?page=all
http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-ad ... l?page=all

to get some idea.

But hang on, that's overseas stuff, we don't do that here surely?

Have a read about this Sydney doctor who
claims to have administered steroids to as many as 5000 clients

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/cycling/doc ... 28c9k.html
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby ni78ck » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:05 pm

Just had my first race ever in C grade (c for controversial) I finished 3rd and I confess to having a GU prior to the race :)
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby winstonw » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:14 pm

I won my first C grade race yesterday. broke and averaged 38kph for 30 solo minutes.
Though I put my win down to a pack not prepared to work together on a windy day to reel me in.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby winstonw » Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:25 pm

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:No, they are not.

What determines your category level in the USA (and many other countries) are your race results and points accumulated from racing.


So Allan and Coggan race category table is wrong?
http://www.americanroadcycling.org/articles/PSL/WiddersHump/WattsSpeed.htm
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:02 pm

It's not wrong... It just gives you an idea where you stand... But as no one has a straight line across the 4 values ( or do they?... I am somewhere near the bottom on 5 sec power and somewhere near cat 1 on 1 minute power ) you can only use it as guide. About the only place I can think it would give you an accurate result is in an uphill TT... Everywhere else many other things come into play.
In the US they have a proper grading system ( on your license!!!! ) and like Alex says the only thing that changes that grading is race results ( or lack if them ;-) ).
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby winstonw » Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:18 pm

toolonglegs wrote: and like Alex says the only thing that changes that grading is race results ( or lack if them ;-) ).


if it is as simple as that, why did Allan and Coggan publish FTs for each category? and how did they determine them?
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby twizzle » Sun Oct 28, 2012 9:39 pm

winstonw wrote:
toolonglegs wrote: and like Alex says the only thing that changes that grading is race results ( or lack if them ;-) ).


if it is as simple as that, why did Allan and Coggan publish FTs for each category? and how did they determine them?


Because they have shiteloads of data and can give you a guideline based on results. A handicap is weighted more towards FTP, a scratch crit will be weighted towards 1 minute power, and in the case of our events (Stromlo in Canberra) usually results in a sprint. If you don't have a sprint, you need exceptional 5/FTP - as the only way to place is to ride off the front. My 5 sec/1 min is classed as 'untrained', which is why I have no expectation of ever making it to A grade.


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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:00 pm

winstonw wrote:
toolonglegs wrote: and like Alex says the only thing that changes that grading is race results ( or lack if them ;-) ).


if it is as simple as that, why did Allan and Coggan publish FTs for each category? and how did they determine them?


Actually if I recall they didn't want to publish categories but publishers / readers wanted them in there... everyone likes numbers after all. Alex knows more on this.
I think they were established them from all their data as best off test results... they are only a guide but do tell you roughly where you sit.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby nickobec » Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:18 pm

twizzle wrote:Because they have shiteloads of data and can give you a guideline based on results.

+1 that is what they say in their book, we tested heaps of riders, here are some guidelines, so you can identify your strengths and weaknesses

twizzle wrote:My 5 sec/1 min is classed as 'untrained' ...

At least your 5 second gets you into untrained, mine is not even close

I have a decent 5 min, my 5 to 10 min power is well above my critical power curve, sub 5 minute drops away dramatically from the curve and after 10 minutes, my power goes into a steady decline below the curve.

So knowing those guidelines, using the critical power curve, I know I need to work on my sprinting and endurance / FTP and I need to start using my strength to my advantage.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby toolonglegs » Sun Oct 28, 2012 11:27 pm

yes as nickobec says, looking at where your power sits within the 4 columns gives you a good idea of your strengths and weaknesses... helps you decide what to work on and what to play to your advantage.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby Christine Tham » Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:33 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
winstonw wrote:In another thread, it was mentioned Australian grades can be matched to US categories, which are guided by FTP watts/kg.
I think C grade was accepted as 3-3.5watts/kg.

No, they are not.

What determines your category level in the USA (and many other countries) are your race results and points accumulated from racing.

When you first start racing, you are required to start as a Cat 5, race and earn enough starts/places to gather the points needed to be upgrade to Cat 4. Then the process repeats. For Cat 5, you get points for finishing, and part of the process of earning points at that level is simply gaining racing experience before you are permitted to race in the higher categories. Naturally, Cat 5 have people of widely varying levels of fitness, plus those that are simply not fit enough to race at higher categories.

From Cat 4 and up, then you actually need to start gathering points based on results in order to earn your category upgrade. This is typically done in geographical divisions, e.g. NorCal (northern California) or State boundaries, sometimes several states combined. As a result, due to the variance in racing numbers / depth of fields, even this does not end up producing equality across the country. A Cat 3 in one division may be at Cat 2 standard elsewhere but if they travelled to another division, they would still have to race Cat 3 (and they may well clean up). If they stayed there, eventually they would accumulate enough points to be upgraded.

Power outputs are not and never will be used as a grading mechanism. All the W/kg numbers refer to is the typical power of riders that race in those categories, but it's quite a wide band. e.g. in some districts, you won't win a hilly Cat 3 road race without an hour power of ~5W/kg.

If you want to know what grade you should be racing in Australia (and you are not sure), then just go race. If you win by a country mile, then smile for the after race photo, take your $20 envelope, brag to your significant other all night simultaneously explaining why you need those new deep section carbon wheels, and turn up next week in the next grade up. If however you get dropped pretty quickly, then drop down a grade.

Lather, rinse, repeat. Simple really.


Thanks for this post. For once I completely agree with you.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby Christine Tham » Mon Oct 29, 2012 4:59 am

foo on patrol wrote:Christine, if you had a collection of C grade riders that were at the top end of their Grade, come into one of these race meets, they will always (maybe not always) but most times make the race faster or harder. This is the nature of what happens when you get so many riders of the same fitness together, so it really doesn't take away from the fact that they are C Graders or as the saying goes, Weekend Warriors. :wink:


I agree completely.

I think the point that Alex and several others were trying to make was that Heffron Tuesdays has always had a reputation for being somewhat special. If you were a C grader, you know you have made it if you can survive Tuesday Heffron. If you got spat out, then you know you have to train harder :-) But it doesn't mean it will be forever beyond your ability - that was what I was questioning.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Mon Oct 29, 2012 7:12 am

Christine Tham wrote:But it doesn't mean it will be forever beyond your ability - that was what I was questioning.

I never said it was.
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