Doping in C-grade ?

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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:21 am

winstonw wrote:OK, BNA consensus is, using Andy's tables as a guide to race category is a waste of time, even though Andy never said this, and agreed to create the table as a category guide.

Andy never intended/agreed to create the table as a category guide. But you do so love your strawmen. Is this the only logical fallacy in your armoury, or do you have some others?
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby Chris249 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:56 am

winstonw wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:Actually my consensus is I will take the word of someone who knows Coogan personally and professionally and has a pretty solid reputation for knowing his stuff inside and out.


Personally, I avoid the cult of personality worship.... And believe Andy didn't intend to waste anyone's time.


It's ridiculous to say that respecting information given by a trained and qualified person about their specialty is "personality worship".
There are many types of racing cyclists. There is the sprinter, the rouleur, the stagiaire, the danser, the descender.... sadly, I'm a mediocre. :-(

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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby Cycledelica » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:27 am

winstonw wrote:OK, BNA consensus is, using Andy's tables as a guide to race category is a waste of time, even though Andy never said this, and agreed to create the table as a category guide.
I think the point that everyone is trying to make (and that Andy Coggan even stated himself in the post that you made above), is that his power profile tables can be used as a GUIDELINE to indicate the approximate level of power required to compete at various levels in various disciplines whereas the actual grade that one competes in is determined by actually racing. So no, the tables are not a waste of time, but they are not a grading tool.

Alex summed it up perfectly, if you want to figure out what grade you should be in on different types of courses and race formats, go and race. If you enter c-grade and win at your first attempt, then you go up to b-grade. In terms of predicting crit performance, which is the question you asked above also, then there could be varying power profiles that might belong to the most successful performers which might depend on the course. For example on a course which has tight corners and/or where it is rare for there not to be a bunch sprint then you expect the riders with the highest 5sec power to generally by amongst the place getters. On a course where the average speed is much higher or where there are some hills and you see successful breakaways, then you might expect riders with the highest 5min power or FTP to fair better in this case. You'll notice that Andy Coggan also mentions this purpose for the tables, ie: identify events which a given individual might be more suited to.

So once again, the table identifies what event your own personal strengths/weaknesses might be best suited to, you get graded depending on how you perform in an actual race.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby winstonw » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:52 pm

Cycledelica wrote:I think the point that everyone is trying to make (and that Andy Coggan even stated himself in the post that you made above), is that his power profile tables can be used as a GUIDELINE to indicate the approximate level of power required to compete at various levels in various disciplines whereas the actual grade that one competes in is determined by actually racing.


Well, it doesn't take a Ph.D in semantics to go back and read that's what I said - e.g. the tables can be used as a guideline of power required for various race categories. Why did I say that? because I presume a respected Ph.D is careful enough with his data and interpretations, that when he uses the term "e.g." in relation to a large population, the e.g. is applicable at least 50% of the time.

From Alex's tone, he obviously knows Andy meant the 'e.g.' couldn't be used as a guide at all, let alone >50% of the time.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby SuddenImpact » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:41 pm

This reply hardly seems relevant after the last few pages of back and forth....But anyway.

Im a little surprised people find it so hard to believe there would be doping in C grade. Or any level of the sport for that matter. 
I'm a newcomer to the sport of cycling. But not sport and fitness. Steroid use is so common in the world of amatuer level sport and fitness its scary. I know personally and have spoken openly to more than a few blokes and at least one female I can remember, about steroid use. Everyday Joes who dont compete at anything. At any level. There are many many reasons a person will take steroids. Many reasons much less 'important' or motivating than competing in acutal sporting competition. 
 
Im talking about hit the gym 2 times a week, train when i feel like it, Mcdonalds 3 times a week, party on the weekend folk pinning like its nothing. Some not even sure what it is they are taking. But their mate said it was 'good gear'.

Ive never used steroids for health reasons and because I enjoy the challenge of finding my genetic potential without chemical assistance. But i know that if I changed mind I could be on a cycle of xyz by weeks end.

So my point is. I would put my lifes savings on there being folk in C grade that use. That guy you see riding your local that doesnt even race. You know. That weekend warrior? He probably uses too.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby SuddenImpact » Thu Nov 01, 2012 12:11 am

I'll also add.

There are, in my experience two types of steroid users. Those that will admit it. If not openly, at least to those close to them.

Then there are those who will vehemently deny it till the very last test ;) these are the types that clearly excel at their chosen discipline. But if you ask them, only train 'casually' and eat whatever they want(sarcasm). These people are on a 'better than you without trying' trip.

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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Nov 01, 2012 6:40 am

winstonw wrote:Well, it doesn't take a Ph.D in semantics to go back and read that's what I said


Alex Simmons/RST wrote:
winstonw wrote:In another thread, it was mentioned Australian grades can be matched to US categories, which are guided by FTP watts/kg.
I think C grade was accepted as 3-3.5watts/kg.

No, they are not.

What determines your category level in the USA (and many other countries) are your race results and points accumulated from racing.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby warthog1 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:56 am

SuddenImpact wrote:This reply hardly seems relevant after the last few pages of back and forth....But anyway.

Im a little surprised people find it so hard to believe there would be doping in C grade. Or any level of the sport for that matter. 
I'm a newcomer to the sport of cycling. But not sport and fitness. Steroid use is so common in the world of amatuer level sport and fitness its scary. I know personally and have spoken openly to more than a few blokes and at least one female I can remember, about steroid use. Everyday Joes who dont compete at anything. At any level. There are many many reasons a person will take steroids. Many reasons much less 'important' or motivating than competing in acutal sporting competition. 
 
Im talking about hit the gym 2 times a week, train when i feel like it, Mcdonalds 3 times a week, party on the weekend folk pinning like its nothing. Some not even sure what it is they are taking. But their mate said it was 'good gear'.

Ive never used steroids for health reasons and because I enjoy the challenge of finding my genetic potential without chemical assistance. But i know that if I changed mind I could be on a cycle of xyz by weeks end.

So my point is. I would put my lifes savings on there being folk in C grade that use. That guy you see riding your local that doesnt even race. You know. That weekend warrior? He probably uses too.


I went to the gym before I was cycling. I would say from a gym perspective this is very accurate unfortunately. People want to get large muscles with minimum effort for reasons of vanity etc :roll:

It's probably around at club level cycling but I would say it's less prevalent. I haven't seen hide nor hair of it in 5 years of racing at club level, doesn't mean its not around though.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby rogan » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:17 pm

toolonglegs wrote:
winstonw wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:Actually my consensus is I will take the word of someone who knows Coogan personally and professionally and has a pretty solid reputation for knowing his stuff inside and out.


Personally, I avoid the cult of personality worship.... And believe Andy didn't intend to waste anyone's time.


Why don't you just ask in him in the forums he is regularly on, or just email him and get him to comment on this thread... pretty sure he probably would.
Then we can see where an Australian C grade Vets for example fits on a chart that relates to US Cats... from what I understand Cat1 on that Chart would be roughly equal to a National Open level in Oz. Cat 3 would be equal to an average Australian A - B club grade somewhere there abouts. C grade club would be somewhere in the Cat 4 - 5 area... but depends where you race, who & how many turns up, if it is flat or hilly etc etc.Yes I can see how comparing more power numbers to that chart can tell me so much about who I will be racing and how I will do.


But will he add a Weekend Warrior category?
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby ausrandoman » Thu Nov 01, 2012 1:41 pm

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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:19 pm

rogan wrote:
But will he add a Weekend Warrior category?

He was probably thinking that "untrained" was probably close enough ;-) .
My own hunch is that Hunter is the money man in that pairing and he knows what people like to look at.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby winstonw » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:12 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Why don't you just ask in him in the forums he is regularly on, or just email him and get him to comment on this thread... pretty sure he probably would.
Then we can see where an Australian C grade Vets for example fits on a chart that relates to US Cats... from what I understand Cat1 on that Chart would be roughly equal to a National Open level in Oz. Cat 3 would be equal to an average Australian A - B club grade somewhere there abouts. C grade club would be somewhere in the Cat 4 - 5 area... but depends where you race, who & how many turns up, if it is flat or hilly etc etc.Yes I can see how comparing more power numbers to that chart can tell me so much about who I will be racing and how I will do.
Bollocks.


Hands up all those who are certain power is NOT positively correlated to race category!
Can someone find me an A grade crit racer with sub 3watts/kg FT.
Then find me a 75+kg C grade racer with 4watts/kg FT.
I mean, let's stop the pseudo academic grandstanding shall we.

I'd be happy to communicate directly with Andy about this....and have already looked for his academic email address, without success.... It would be a change from being called a troll and otherwise insulted, as seems acceptable on this forum.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:24 pm

Personally I know plenty of C grade riders around 65 to 70 kgs with at least 4 w per kg, if not 4.5... the only chance they have winning a race is finding one with long hills ( 1 km or so ).
I also know a Cat 2 rider who can win a pretty big bunch sprint even though his 5 sec power to weight ratio is in the Cat 5 / untrained level... and his FTP is only about 4w per kg... but his one minute power is happily in the the Cat 1 band ( actually I know him very well :P ).
But a Cat 1 crit racer with sub 3w per kilo... no I don't think so.

Hands up all those who are certain power is NOT positively correlated to race category!


Yes there is a correlation but it isn't everything.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby vander » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:31 pm

winstonw wrote:Hands up all those who are certain power is NOT positively correlated to race category!
Can someone find me an A grade crit racer with sub 3watts/kg FT.
Then find me a 75+kg C grade racer with 4watts/kg FT.
I mean, let's stop the pseudo academic grandstanding shall we.

I'd be happy to communicate directly with Andy about this....and have already looked for his academic email address, without success.... It would be a change from being called a troll and otherwise insulted, as seems acceptable on this forum.


so from that I take A to C grade in Aus is somewhere between 2-5w/kg. You have really narrowed it down you have just about every non-pros power output and most the Sydney grades. Thanks for narrowing down what grade i should be in for me .............
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby twizzle » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:04 pm

What's that thudding sound? Sounds like the ongoing flogging of a dead horse, killed on the zebra crossing of life where there can only be black and white.


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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:14 pm

I thought it was tyre I drag around to slow down my E fueled legs.
Now if I lost 30 kgs and kept the same power I could give contador a run for his money... Imagine if I refined my doping program!.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby skull » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:18 pm

It is ok TLL I already think you are doping, or is that a dope...
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:20 pm

Shock ;-)
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby winstonw » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:48 pm

toolonglegs wrote:Personally I know plenty of C grade riders around 65 to 70 kgs with at least 4 w per kg, if not 4.5... the only chance they have winning a race is finding one with long hills ( 1 km or so ).


Are you 100% certain of that TLL? a 65kg rider with 4w/kg FT should be able to do a flat course ITT at 38kph. and 4.5w/kg would yield ~40kph.
Where are these C grade riders you know of, and what 'races' are you referring to?
And which power duration are you referring to?

toolonglegs wrote:I also know a Cat 2 rider who can win a pretty big bunch sprint even though his 5 sec power to weight ratio is in the Cat 5 / untrained level... and his FTP is only about 4w per kg... but his one minute power is happily in the the Cat 1 band ( actually I know him very well :P ).
But a Cat 1 crit racer with sub 3w per kilo... no I don't think so.

Yes there is a correlation but it isn't everything.


No it isn't everything, and I've never said it was. but it is going to be applicable more often than not e.g. >50% of the time.
Which means power tables correlate to race categories.

I don't appreciate the vacuous slurs from you either Twizzle. You've added nothing in your last few posts but moronic slurs, presumably because you are ill informed about the matter. If you have an administrative role with Cycling Australia or Cycling Victoria, and insight into their efforts to make grading racers fairer and more uniform, tell me all about it. I do have insight. And I don't appreciate inflated ego and ignorance clouding the issue, as is happening on this thread.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:09 pm

winstonw wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:Personally I know plenty of C grade riders around 65 to 70 kgs with at least 4 w per kg, if not 4.5... the only chance they have winning a race is finding one with long hills ( 1 km or so ).


Are you 100% certain of that TLL? a 65kg rider with 4w/kg FT should be able to do a flat course ITT at 38kph. and 4.5w/kg would yield ~40kph.
Where are these C grade riders you know of, and what 'races' are you referring to?
And which power duration are you referring to?


Yes a 65kg rider at 4.5w per kg might be able to do 40kmph on a flat course ( probably a lot more if he has a good position ), but the guy who jumps on his wheel will only need to do two thirds of that... so unless the lighter rider has the skill to actually drop a vast majority of the bunch he will probably always get rolled on the line by the more powerful sprinter.

But put those guys on a sustained climb they will easily break up the bunch... problem is how often do you have a real sustained climbs in your average club race. Personally for me in one season when I will race at about 20-30 different circuits only one or two will have a climb over a km long. I have to go to really big races to get proper long climbs... but then the fields are up around 160 riders and funnily enough a 90-95 kg rider can get a long way up a big climb in the middle of a big bunch.

Now look at where a lot of US club races are run... criteriums and ovals. Race skills will have a greater effect than having 1w per kilo less than the rider next to you.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby Strawburger » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:30 am

This will hopefully be my only involvement in this discussion, and an example of what TLL points out...

my racing season

An example of a 65kg C grader with 4w/kg ft (4.5w/kg+ on climbs of 5-10mins) struggling throughout the year on flat or rolling terrains, but did ok on the only "hilly" course in the season...
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby mjd » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:14 am

Too many variables to use anything in grading other than a history of race results over a period of time. The Coggan table gives you a good idea of where your at but that's it. Course & conditions are just two of the things that will effect a race result, the big one for me are the conditions. Your watts per kilo mean nothing if your not up for the hard slog in a 50kph cross wind on parts of a course. Also seen great TT riders & sprinters get spat if the the surges are constant & hard enough to break the elastic & also skinny guys like me on a flat course struggling to get anywhere in a bunch finish. Racing is racing & there is no substitute for results other than where you finish. I find the handicap system in Australia a bit of a joke but with the limited resources we have that's what we are stuck with. I would like to see license fees increased with a view for electronic timing being rolled out & electronic timing being used at club racing. This way the handicapping of riders is not up to a person looking after a mate. With increasing numbers at most clubs across the country I think there is scope to take club racing forward if there was a national approach to some things but its not going to happen anytime soon.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:31 am

winstonw wrote:I do have insight.

Then how about sharing what that insight is, and how it is going to change doping in the lower grades and/or the grading of riders in the lower grades. I mean, surely you are not suggesting that everyone be required to take formal power tests so they can be graded or placed on some doping watch list? Heck, I'd be happy to help with the power testing if that were the case.

And I wouldn't make the assumption no-one around here has some involvement and/or insight in cycling administration in Australia.
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:31 am

mjd wrote:Too many variables to use anything in grading other than a history of race results over a period of time. The Coggan table ....


Pithy Power Proverb: "The best predictor of performance is performance itself" - A. Coggan
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Re: Doping in C-grade ?

Postby ni78ck » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:39 am

mjd wrote:Too many variables to use anything in grading other than a history of race results over a period of time. The Coggan table gives you a good idea of where your at but that's it. Course & conditions are just two of the things that will effect a race result, the big one for me are the conditions. Your watts per kilo mean nothing if your not up for the hard slog in a 50kph cross wind on parts of a course. Also seen great TT riders & sprinters get spat if the the surges are constant & hard enough to break the elastic & also skinny guys like me on a flat course struggling to get anywhere in a bunch finish. Racing is racing & there is no substitute for results other than where you finish. I find the handicap system in Australia a bit of a joke but with the limited resources we have that's what we are stuck with. I would like to see license fees increased with a view for electronic timing being rolled out & electronic timing being used at club racing. This way the handicapping of riders is not up to a person looking after a mate. With increasing numbers at most clubs across the country I think there is scope to take club racing forward if there was a national approach to some things but its not going to happen anytime soon.

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