UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby Parker » Wed Oct 24, 2012 12:37 pm

sogood wrote:
Parker wrote:...Isn't it fair to assume that there is something dodgy going on? Or that there could be something dodgy that happened in the past?

Why do you think all pharmaceutical companies are bad? It's fashionable to be critical of them because of govt health cost burden and their profit. Fact is, it's a very very heavily regulated industry, very long product lead time and very high return risks. In terms of ethics, it's a heck of a lot better than many others in our business community.

Lynch mob assume with the barest unsubstantiated information while civil people believe in innocent until proven otherwise. Fact is, EPO has been a wonder agent that has saved the lives of millions. In the big picture, illegal use of EPO by various branches of sports pale in insignificance to all its benefits to mankind.

I'm not against EPO. I'm not critical of Pharmceutical companies because of the gov't health cost, on the contrary I believe whole heartedly in business and making money at a reasonable cost to the consumer.

I also don't personally think that all Pharmaceutical companies are bad, I'm sure there are some very well structured companies with excellent policies. I believe the way that they are portrayed by sensationalist media would indeed present a different picture... And James Bond.
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by BNA » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:08 pm

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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby Xplora » Wed Oct 24, 2012 1:08 pm

A lot of Amgen employees are cyclists, in a cycling area. Who is most qualified to administer EPO to themselves - the manufacturer?

On the juice, much? :mrgreen:
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby sogood » Wed Oct 24, 2012 2:30 pm

Parker wrote:I'm not against EPO. I'm not critical of Pharmceutical companies because of the gov't health cost, on the contrary I believe whole heartedly in business and making money at a reasonable cost to the consumer.

It's never a single party responsibility here.

Cost of a medical product is determined by numerous factors, including research (both laboratory and clinical), risk of failure, government regulation and recent decades, expectation of zero complication by patients and willingness to litigate. Let alone of the later, the amount of regulation and duration of research required to bring a product to market is jaw dropping. Now add in all the unrealistic expectations of patient consumers and a court/media that favours the individual, cost can only go up and up. Take the silicon breast implant story where the scientific data doesn't even support all the claims, not only did the company lose the court case and paid out in millions, it also gave silicon a bad name within the medical device industry. As a result, all the millions to billions invested in silicon as a medical implant material vaporised overnight. That, is where one needs to ask questions about "reasonable cost to the consumer". Similar can be said of pharmaceutics, one sensationalist media report of an expected adverse event will tank a product in the market place.
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby familyguy » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:02 pm

Lance has got Big Mig on his side...that's gotta count for something?

Jim
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby Nobody » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:03 pm

sogood wrote:...it also gave silicon a bad name within the medical device industry.
I still like it in my KK Road Machine. :)
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby Oxford » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:47 pm

familyguy wrote:Lance has got Big Mig on his side...that's gotta count for something?

Jim

Yes it does something, it lowers my opinion of Big Mig.
I could agree with you, but then we would both be wrong.
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Wed Oct 24, 2012 8:49 pm

familyguy wrote:Lance has got Big Mig on his side...that's gotta count for something?

His IQ?
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby DavidS » Wed Oct 24, 2012 10:46 pm

Aah, didn't know EPO was used for anemia and the like. However, given the association of cycling with doping I'm not sure it is a great look for cycling.

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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby cpical » Thu Oct 25, 2012 5:23 am

familyguy wrote:Lance has got Big Mig on his side...that's gotta count for something?

Jim



And Contador too! 8)
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby James_d1 » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:16 am

toolonglegs wrote:I notice Cadel has now admitted working with Ferrari as well :roll: ... still more muck to be flung around :| .


Cadel never "worked" with Ferrari, he completed a half day test back in 2000 our so, to determine if he could make the transition to road racing from MTB. I would hardly call this working.

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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby doggatas » Thu Oct 25, 2012 7:44 am

3 Spainards have now publicly voiced their disapproval or support against of the proceedings against LA.

Valverde going as far to say LA won those tours with his own legs. Can't find the article now, maybe Cycling News taken it down.


Contador says no respect shown to LA http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/contador-says-there-is-no-new-proof-against-armstrong

Indurain already mentioned.

English speaking editorials may have lost something in translation or it may say something about that particular era of cycling and perhaps even more recent times for particular nationalities.
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby clackers » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:14 am

doggatas wrote:
English speaking editorials may have lost something in translation or it may say something about that particular era of cycling and perhaps even more recent times for particular nationalities.


Spain was isolated from Europe during the Franco years, and just as a generation of East German athletes had earlier used steroids to catch up with the West, the Spanish were blood transfusion pioneers leading up to the 1992 Barcelona Olympics.

Notoriously tolerant of doping (and police wouldn't prosecute, unlike the French), Spain was the place to come to for transfusions and to escape testing scrutiny. Bruyneel set up the Postal team base in Girona.
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby sogood » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:32 am

familyguy wrote:Lance has got Big Mig on his side...that's gotta count for something?

He is Spanish isn't he? :roll:
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby sogood » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:50 am

doggatas wrote:Contador says no respect shown to LA...

This is a surprise to me given the blow up Contador had with LA in Astana. But I can also see his point. At present and the way USADA (as per many high profile legal cases), it's a case of piling all the responsibilities onto one individual (LA in this case) to ensure a conviction of one. Factually, doping was the dominant culture of the time, a most unfortunate era. But lynching of one to absolve all the wrongs of the time is not exactly right either. Otherwise I am seeing two types of commentary, one to use the opportunity to confess one's sins of the past and escape additional scrutiny. The other is to leverage the episode to highlight one's holier than thou anti-doping stance.
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby herzog » Thu Oct 25, 2012 10:59 am

We should also recall that Spain gave us probably the most appalling case of cheating in sporting history.

They won basketball at the special Olympics with a bunch of guys pretending to be mentally handicapped.

They were later caught and there were resignations aplenty but the damage was done.

How could those guys sleep at night?
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby Alex Simmons/RST » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:02 am

sogood wrote:But lynching of one to absolve all the wrongs of the time is not exactly right either.

Hence the dubbing of Armstrong as "Cancer Jesus".
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby sogood » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:28 am

Alex Simmons/RST wrote:Hence the dubbing of Armstrong as "Cancer Jesus".

Yes, can see that.
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby sogood » Thu Oct 25, 2012 11:39 am

herzog wrote:We should also recall that Spain gave us probably the most appalling case of cheating in sporting history.
They won basketball at the special Olympics with a bunch of guys pretending to be mentally handicapped.
They were later caught and there were resignations aplenty but the damage was done.
How could those guys sleep at night?

Technologically advanced countries cheat through the latest technology and often get away with it.
Technological laggard countries develop asymmetrical solutions, but unfortunately for them, these often are seen as stupid by those holding the technology and generally ridiculed by all others and beat up by the media.
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby toolonglegs » Thu Oct 25, 2012 3:43 pm

James_d1 wrote:
toolonglegs wrote:I notice Cadel has now admitted working with Ferrari as well :roll: ... still more muck to be flung around :| .


Cadel never "worked" with Ferrari, he completed a half day test back in 2000 our so, to determine if he could make the transition to road racing from MTB. I would hardly call this working.

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any connection isn't great... Hence he made a public statement to get the info out there. I read what he did with him as well.
Franck schleck payed 6k (?) to Fuentes if I recall for nothing. Just the connection is enough to tar him for life ( for Franck that is ).

Big Mig ... Clean ;-)
Valverde ... Another clean supporter...
Contador ... ;-)

You couldn't buy that sort of support :-)

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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby ianK » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:13 pm

Greg LeMond has an open letter to PaT McQuaid on his facebook timeline http://www.facebook.com/greglemond?ref=ts&fref=ts

Doesn't pull any punches - interesting to see how McQuaid will respond - another lawsuit in Switzerland seeking $6,000 in damages!!??

Last time I check, Paul Kimmage fighting fund - http://nyvelocity.com/content/features/2012/paul-kimmage-defense-fund - was well over $70k - should buy some good legal guns.
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby sogood » Thu Oct 25, 2012 4:21 pm

ianK wrote:Last time I check, Paul Kimmage fighting fund - was well over $70k - should buy some good legal guns.

Are you kidding me? Planning to use legal aid services? $70k would barely pay for a formal legal opinion let alone trying to reach a worthwhile legal outcome. Legal fights are for those with deep pockets.
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby toolonglegs » Fri Oct 26, 2012 6:02 am

Oh Bobby :| ... another rider bites the dust.
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby schroeds » Fri Oct 26, 2012 8:19 pm

This photo makes me feel almost physically sick. How the world has changed. I find myself getting more and more angry at the people who have done this to our sport. :evil:

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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby exadios » Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:22 am

An article about the effects of doping on the clean professional riders.
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Re: UCI strips Armstrong of 7 TDF wins and bans him for life

Postby wizardhat » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:34 am

exadios wrote:Such as the ex post facto ban of recumbents and the reinstatement of records set in the 1930s (the UCI has a lot of form).
Woah, let's not go too far here! ;)
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