Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby Philipthelam » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:04 pm

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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby GraemeL » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:09 pm

human909 wrote:
GraemeL wrote:I always stop at all lights, it is just not worth the risk and besides, I like my body the way it is.

What risk? It is far more risky to blindly follow what the lights say than to ignore lights completely and proceed when it is safe.

The vast majority of the time I simply stop for red lights but I honestly feel ridiculous waiting for a red light at an empty intersection. It is an inefficient waste of time. The "risk" of me running a red light at an empty intersection is negligible. There is far more objective risk riding straight in a typical bike lane next to parked cars.


The risk of making a mistake and being hit and then having to foot the bill, if I'm still alive.

If it's good enough for cyclists to run a red when it suits them, then we should all agree it's good enough for anybody, regardless of what they are riding/driving.

Drivers routinely cut us off, close shave etc, maybe they think the same about that as some riders do about red lights, it's ok I think it's safe.

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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby human909 » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:30 pm

GraemeL wrote:The risk of making a mistake and being hit and then having to foot the bill, if I'm still alive.

If I worried about not being able to see cars and proceed when safe I wouldn't get on the bike. The same "risk" exists at giveway and stop signs.

GraemeL wrote:If it's good enough for cyclists to run a red when it suits them, then we should all agree it's good enough for anybody, regardless of what they are riding/driving.

Yep. If you do so safely without inconveniencing or harming others then I have no objection.
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby marinmomma » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:32 pm

It's been a while....settling in for a good one!

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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby HelmutHerr » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:46 pm

Oxford wrote:
HelmutHerr wrote:...

Oxford wrote:In my opinion it's a personal decision, it doesn't affect anyone else

If only this was about opinions and not observable facts.
Please do not attribute that to me, I did not say that. In fact I vehemently disagree with that entirely.

Apologies. I try to keep the quote boxes as clean as possible and I misattributed that sentence. I'll edit it when I get to a proper computer.
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby queequeg » Wed Oct 31, 2012 5:50 pm

Yes, I generally stop at red lights when I am on the road, unless they refuse to change.
I do cross against those annoying bike lantern crossings that are red only because there was no cyclist there to press the button at exactly the right moment (so they would have otherwise been green!).
Is this bad? Well, motorists are no angels. Coming home tonight a woman ran the red left arrow and nearly took me out on the bike crossing (on the green). She then proceeded to turn right at the next set of lights (10 secs later), from the middle lane and through a red arrow across three lanes of oncoming traffic! Yep, rego really helps stop red light runners!
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby find_bruce » Wed Oct 31, 2012 6:35 pm

On my commute there are 14 sets of lights. 7 of those I can't recall ever seeing a red light rider. 4 have almost no red light riders.

The other 3 fall into the category queequeg identified & 80% of riders will stop then proceed when they think it is safe.

Ironically 1 light is often safer to cross on the red.
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby Lukeyboy » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:11 pm

human909 wrote:
Lukeyboy wrote:They are in areas where there is no traffic around these times so I treat the lights as a stop sign.


Interestingly I treat all intersections the same way as I treat a STOP sign even if there is a GREEN light or a continuing road.


I hope to god you don't come to a full stop at green lights.
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby roller » Wed Oct 31, 2012 7:37 pm

i go through as many reds as i can in view of as many people as i can.

i do this so that a driver who has seen me do this and then sees a rider who stops at red lights, will realise that not all cyclists are the same.
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby ianK » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:12 pm

I used to be in the "stop - have a look and proceed if it is safe" brigade, however I now find that I am far more inclined to wait. I now ride far more within the law by taking up a whole lane on a divided road etc (keeping well away from car doors!!) and figure that I really can't pick and choose which rules I should obey.

Should the road rule be changed to allow rider to proceed if safe - quite possibly, but, if and until it takes place I will stop, and if need be, wheel myself to the pedestrian button and activate the pedn lights
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby il padrone » Wed Oct 31, 2012 8:24 pm

GraemeL wrote:
human909 wrote:The vast majority of the time I simply stop for red lights but I honestly feel ridiculous waiting for a red light at an empty intersection. It is an inefficient waste of time. The "risk" of me running a red light at an empty intersection is negligible. There is far more objective risk riding straight in a typical bike lane next to parked cars.


The risk of making a mistake and being hit and then having to foot the bill, if I'm still alive.

While I generally do not advocate running red lights and in normal traffic never do, I can't see how someone is going to get hit going through a truly empty intersection ?? Thinking of the last time I did this - 11.30pm sitting in a double-lane right-turn lane (effectively in the middle of 5 lanes), where the sensor had not triggered the red arrow for me. I could have been waiting there for a very long time. There was no sound, sight or presence of any vehicles ahead, behind or to either side, apart from me, but sitting there I was mildly concerned about the driving of any vehicle that did happen to come up behind me while I was there........ waiting...................

I ran the crazy red arrow.
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby il padrone » Wed Oct 31, 2012 10:22 pm

Oh, I could have done all manner of things I guess. :|

I could have turned about and wheeled the bike back along the median strip and crossed to another side street. Or I could have ridden diagonally across the empty intersection on the green for straight through, to the far left corner to do a hook turn instead. I just don't regard such maneuvers as any more or less "dangerous" than going through that red light - the one that is faulty and does not detect a bicycle rider.

I prefer the simplest safe solution. Any time the lights do not work - proceed when safe, giving way to the right (and oncoming traffic as I was turning right). That's the rule.
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby Xplora » Wed Oct 31, 2012 11:14 pm

Oxford wrote:so dismounting and walking to the safety of the side of the road was not an option then?

And then, as a pedestrian, can be charged with jaywalking, or creating an obstruction... or wearing a loud shirt in a built up area :lol:

H909 pretty much sums it up - if you can't make the decision for yourself to proceed through an intersection without the aid of traffic lights, you should make the decision to not ride on the road. You might make a mistake one day... but if you ever have to deal with a red running car who made a mistake one day as you went through the green, you'll be no better off than if you had run a red and been hit. Imagine you were hit on the green and there were no witnesses. You'll still be going to hospital, and might even get a TIN.

Red lights are designed to minimise the incompetence of car drivers. Cyclist volumes don't ever require lights. :idea:
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby Philipthelam » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:58 am

I hope to god you don't come to a full stop at green lights.[/quote]
il padrone wrote:
GraemeL wrote:
human909 wrote:The vast majority of the time I simply stop for red lights but I honestly feel ridiculous waiting for a red light at an empty intersection. It is an inefficient waste of time. The "risk" of me running a red light at an empty intersection is negligible. There is far more objective risk riding straight in a typical bike lane next to parked cars.


The risk of making a mistake and being hit and then having to foot the bill, if I'm still alive.

While I generally do not advocate running red lights and in normal traffic never do, I can't see how someone is going to get hit going through a truly empty intersection ?? Thinking of the last time I did this - 11.30pm sitting in a double-lane right-turn lane (effectively in the middle of 5 lanes), where the sensor had not triggered the red arrow for me. I could have been waiting there for a very long time. There was no sound, sight or presence of any vehicles ahead, behind or to either side, apart from me, but sitting there I was mildly concerned about the driving of any vehicle that did happen to come up behind me while I was there........ waiting...................

I ran the crazy red arrow.

how do you know the intersection is a "truly empty intersection"? If there is a green light cars don't look and don't expect for a vehicle to be going across their path. You might look right, then look left, then go and there might be a car coming on the right that you missed. Of course there is a risk.
Il padrone look through the full posts before you make a comment. Even though he said "The vast majority of the time I simply stop for red lights" I doubt that Human909 does this when he makes comments like
human909 wrote: I treat all intersections the same way as I treat a STOP sign even if there is a GREEN light or a continuing road.


I find it funny how many of the people that say they run red lights here are the same ones that have posted they don't like/don't wear helmets. Shows what kind of people these guys are.
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby GraemeL » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:40 am

il padrone wrote:
GraemeL wrote:
human909 wrote:The vast majority of the time I simply stop for red lights but I honestly feel ridiculous waiting for a red light at an empty intersection. It is an inefficient waste of time. The "risk" of me running a red light at an empty intersection is negligible. There is far more objective risk riding straight in a typical bike lane next to parked cars.


The risk of making a mistake and being hit and then having to foot the bill, if I'm still alive.

While I generally do not advocate running red lights and in normal traffic never do, I can't see how someone is going to get hit going through a truly empty intersection ?? Thinking of the last time I did this - 11.30pm sitting in a double-lane right-turn lane (effectively in the middle of 5 lanes), where the sensor had not triggered the red arrow for me. I could have been waiting there for a very long time. There was no sound, sight or presence of any vehicles ahead, behind or to either side, apart from me, but sitting there I was mildly concerned about the driving of any vehicle that did happen to come up behind me while I was there........ waiting...................

I ran the crazy red arrow.


There is always a risk, mistakes are made.

It's funny how peolpe here whinge and bitch about drivers, wanting to save a few precious seconds, not giving way at roundabouts, close shaves, opening their doors without looking etc etc.
Maybe those drivers have the same attitude as those here that run red lights, you know, the ones who think they are perfect, and think they are above the law.

Talk about the pot calling the kettle black :roll:

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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby il padrone » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:41 am

Philipthelam wrote:I hope to god you don't come to a full stop at green lights.

Please read my post thoroughly.

il padrone wrote:While I generally do not advocate running red lights and in normal traffic never do, I can't see how someone is going to get hit going through a truly empty intersection ?? Thinking of the last time I did this - 11.30pm sitting in a double-lane right-turn lane (effectively in the middle of 5 lanes), where the sensor had not triggered the red arrow for me. I could have been waiting there for a very long time. There was no sound, sight or presence of any vehicles ahead, behind or to either side, apart from me, but sitting there I was mildly concerned about the driving of any vehicle that did happen to come up behind me while I was there........ waiting...................

I ran the crazy red arrow.


Red arrows work while the green light operates for straight through. Only this red stayed red.

Philipthelam wrote:how do you know the intersection is a "truly empty intersection"? If there is a green light cars don't look and don't expect for a vehicle to be going across their path. You might look right, then look left, then go and there might be a car coming on the right that you missed. Of course there is a risk.

:shock: :shock: :roll:
You mean to say that you never ever make a right turn apart from at controlled intersections with red turn arrow? Your cycle journeys would have to be pretty hamstrung!!!

I was talking about a suburban main road intersection at near midnight. The roads were completely empty in all directions as far as could be seen.
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby il padrone » Thu Nov 01, 2012 8:47 am

GraemeL wrote:There is always a risk, mistakes are made.

Please re-read my post, especially noting the time of night and the circumstances. The only way a mistake could have occurred was if I fell off my bike and lay on the road for several minutes :roll:
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby human909 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:00 am

Philipthelam wrote:how do you know the intersection is a "truly empty intersection"? If there is a green light cars don't look and don't expect for a vehicle to be going across their path. You might look right, then look left, then go and there might be a car coming on the right that you missed. Of course there is a risk.

You know by checking with your eyes. The same thing you have been doing at GIVE WAY and STOP signed intersections. And the same as you are doing if you cross any road. If you can't trust yourself to do this then I'm surprised you even ride a bike.

Philipthelam wrote:Il padrone look through the full posts before you make a comment. Even though he said "The vast majority of the time I simply stop for red lights" I doubt that Human909 does this when he makes comments like
human909 wrote: I treat all intersections the same way as I treat a STOP sign even if there is a GREEN light or a continuing road.

How do you come to that conclusion Philipthelam? By that comment I am saying that I will check for and give way to all traffic entering the intersection or on an intercepting path with me. Most of the time at traffic lights I will wait for the traffic to stop and the light to go green before I bother a thorough check and proceeding. If there is a red light and no traffic then I MAY check for safe passage and proceed.

Philipthelam wrote:I find it funny how many of the people that say they run red lights here are the same ones that have posted they don't like/don't wear helmets. Shows what kind of people these guys are.

What kinda of people is that Philipthelam? Did you mean those have lived in Amsterdam and seen how much better cycling can be? Those that don't believe everything the government tells us? Please do elaborate, I would like to hear what you are attempting to imply.

GraemeL wrote:There is always a risk, mistakes are made.

How do you ever manage to negotiate non traffic light controlled intersections?
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby il padrone » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:26 am

Oxford wrote:really beginning to think cyclists really are their own worst enemy. if you honestly think you should be able to pick and choose which traffic laws you obey and not make more sensible choices when they go against you,

The 'sensible choice' that applies to all road users is to proceed with caution , giving way to any traffic, if the lights are faulty ie. if you have waited for at least one full cycle of the lights and they have not detected your presence.

Again, in my case this was at 11.30pm-midnight. The lights did not register my presence. There was no traffic. Others face this at 6.00am. It is a very specific circumstance, I'm not trying to give some general exemption.
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby JustJames » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:36 am

This is all very 'tree falling in the forest with nobody to hear it'.

If a cyclist goes through a red light when there is traffic around, he is being a dick, for a whole bunch of reasons. One of those reasons is that it p's off motorists who feel frustrated because they are obeying the road rules. If there is no traffic anywhere in sight on the green, but there are motorists in the queue on red, a cyclist should wait. The motorised traffic will trip the lights and all will be well.

But if there is no motorised traffic in any direction, then a cyclist treating the red light as a stop sign is just being sensible.

This stuff really isn't hard, red herrings about shoplifting notwithstanding. I'm amazed that this thread didn't just die out after the first few responses.

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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby TimW » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:17 am

rozzer
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby HelmutHerr » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:28 am

TimW wrote:
rozzer
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Well, he is "Oxford". He can call the bill what he likes. The peelers aren't going to throw him in a panda for it.

I'm more upset by "I could care less". :)
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby JustJames » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:38 am

HelmutHerr wrote:
TimW wrote:
rozzer
:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

Well, he is "Oxford". He can call the bill what he likes. The peelers aren't going to throw him in a panda for it.

I'm more upset by "I could care less". :)


I, for one, am deeply offended by the utter lack of respect for the rules of punctuation.

If somebody is going to be this careless driving a keyboard, can you imagine the havoc they must wreak out on the roads? After all, it's not like you can pick and choose which rules to obey, is it?
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby HelmutHerr » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:49 am

JustJames wrote:If somebody is going to be this careless driving a keyboard, can you imagine the havoc they must wreak out on the roads? After all, it's not like you can pick and choose which rules to obey, is it?

You can't hold all internet commenters responsible for the grammar crimes of a few. Your right to split infinitives ends when they reach my Strunk & White.
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Re: Do you stop at lights? Are there exceptions

Postby JustJames » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:55 am

HelmutHerr wrote:You can't hold all internet commenters responsible for the grammar crimes of a few. Your right to split infinitives ends when they reach my Strunk & White.


Had to google Strunk & White...which led me to this:

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