Moron Motorists #3

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g-boaf
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby g-boaf » Fri Aug 17, 2018 2:43 pm

jasonc wrote:
solmanic wrote:And they say he got TWO fines for the infringement. Nice one but the cops here don't treat close passing a group ride as multiple infringements!

Passing a group ride close - only have to be 8 riders a you would lose your licence


Yeah, but isn't group riding illegal? Aren't vehicles supposed to stay a minimum distance from each other. And people here argue that bicycles are vehicles. :wink:

I remember pages long discussions on group rides being legal or illegal. :roll: Sigh!

Utterly amazing driving a big truck and using two phones at once. Bad.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Mulger bill » Fri Aug 17, 2018 9:14 pm

pj wrote:Not sure if this driver didn't see the speed bump or didn't see the oncoming car :? !? Good thing they aborted.


A fiver say Mr Cheenyis there clonked his scone on the roof lining. :lol:
...whatever the road rules, self-preservation is the absolute priority for a cyclist when mixing it with motorised traffic.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby simurs4 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 10:02 pm

human909 wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:Unfortunately a significant proportion of the population will only take up cycling if they can ride without interaction with motor vehicles.

I don't see significant evidence for this extremity. Neither in Australia or overseas.
This is a typical street in Amsterdam.
Dutch cyclists and motorists share the road and interact all the time.


I have not posted on this forum in a LONG time, I am more of a full time lurker these days, but reading about the stigma towards cyclists and especially the behaviour of motorists made me want to comment.
Up until April of this year I lived my entire live in Melbourne, and am now living in Bavaria in Germany and the difference between drivers here and in Australia in general is ridiculous. I am living in a medium sized town outside of Munich and the patience and sheer extremely nice way drivers are around cyclists is just wonderful.
Considering the size of most Australia suburban streets compared to that of a standard European street, especially in inner cities, I just do not understand how they can make fitting a cycle lane work here but Australia can`t figure it out. I suppose if motorists here where just as nutty as Australia it would be a similar situation, but the infrastructure must surely play a big role in this. It probably also helps that all streets within 2-3km of my towns centre are 30km/h and people stick to this like glue, no faster and no slower.
I often ride 40-50km after work most days and maybe spend 10% of this on an actual road, the rest are designated cycle paths, adjacent to the road. The other week I rode 90km return to Austria, no helmet only sandals and plain clothes, and I would guess about 70km of it was all bike path or a relatively protected lane on the road and not once did I feel threatened or that I was being a nuisance.
I left all of my proper road bikes back in Oz, at the moment I have an old 80s steelie that does the job but I am itching to get into the high mountains once my bikes arrive!

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Fri Aug 17, 2018 11:33 pm

simurs4 wrote:the patience and sheer extremely nice way drivers are around cyclists is just wonderful.....

I suppose if motorists here where just as nutty as Australia it would be a similar situation, but the infrastructure must surely play a big role in this.

The culture and attitudes of drivers is the key as you point out.

And the best way in endearing a positive culture and attitude is empathy. When you, your friends, your colleagues and your children cycle empathy is easy to come by. When it is mostly middle aged men in cycling uniforms it is harder.

How did we get to this position? Cycling infrastructure certainly played its part. So did mandatory helmet laws. And no doubt continuing to design cities around motor vehicles. Even with dedicated cycling infrastructure when you have urban developments that separate commercial zoning from residential zoning by 5-10km you are almost forcing people to drive.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby g-boaf » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:56 am

human909 wrote:
simurs4 wrote:the patience and sheer extremely nice way drivers are around cyclists is just wonderful.....

I suppose if motorists here where just as nutty as Australia it would be a similar situation, but the infrastructure must surely play a big role in this.

The culture and attitudes of drivers is the key as you point out.

And the best way in endearing a positive culture and attitude is empathy. When you, your friends, your colleagues and your children cycle empathy is easy to come by. When it is mostly middle aged men in cycling uniforms it is harder.

How did we get to this position? Cycling infrastructure certainly played its part. So did mandatory helmet laws. And no doubt continuing to design cities around motor vehicles. Even with dedicated cycling infrastructure when you have urban developments that separate commercial zoning from residential zoning by 5-10km you are almost forcing people to drive.


They are respectful around all riders regardless of who they are. I know you love pushing that agenda all the time, but is wrong. It is a cultural difference rather than who is riding.

However, that respect has a limit and they will still behave badly on the roads. Speeding and tailgating does still happen commonly in Germany.

The problem here is a lack of respect for anyone else for any reason. Over time we've become accustomed to having success at all costs. If I have to stomp over everyone else to achieve it, so be it. Backstabbing workplace culture is one example. Getting on the train at peak hour is another - it is just a war zone.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:13 am

g-boaf wrote:They are respectful around all riders regardless of who they are. I know you love pushing that agenda all the time, but is wrong. It is a cultural difference rather than who is riding.

Of course. It was never said otherwise. I don't have an "agenda" as you imply it. Unless you are talking about my aims to help make cycling in Australia safer.

But you are blind to realities if you don't think the normalcy and the demographics place a very significant role in role cyclists are treated on the roads. Plain old common sense suggests women, child and the infirm garner more sympathy. Empirical evidence has show that this is plays out in cycling safety. Not to mention identifying people into an outgroup by clothing is a long entrench phenomenon that doesn't cease to exist simply because somebody is on a bike.

Yes it is a cultural difference but you have failed to address. WHY.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby g-boaf » Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:16 am

human909 wrote:
g-boaf wrote:They are respectful around all riders regardless of who they are. I know you love pushing that agenda all the time, but is wrong. It is a cultural difference rather than who is riding.

Of course. It was never said otherwise. I don't have an "agenda" as you imply it. Unless you are talking about my aims to help make cycling in Australia safer.

But you are blind to realities if you don't think the normalcy and the demographics place a very significant role in role cyclists are treated on the roads. Plain old common sense suggests women, child and the infirm garner more sympathy. Empirical evidence has show that this is plays out in cycling safety. Not to mention identifying people into an outgroup by clothing is a long entrench phenomenon that doesn't cease to exist simply because somebody is on a bike.

Yes it is a cultural difference but you have failed to address. WHY.


They are just calmer, to a degree. Even the European motorists have their faults, they are better than here yes, but not perfect. You drive along at the speed limit and get bullied from behind by someone wanting to go 30km/h over the speed limit, drivers cutting other people off, autobahn racing. Or don't move from the traffic light the moment it goes green, they'll all be beeping at you.

Here, women, children and others hardly gain more sympathy in any respect. Nobody will give up a seat for older people on public transport, and the rush to get on a train is every person for themselves - elbowing everyone else out of the way and barging through.

And my favourite, the old guy taking 6 seats on a train for himself, protesting that his knee is sore, so he has to have his feet up on the backrest of the seat in front (which he moves forward using his walking stick). Funny how someone with such a chronic bad knee can seem to rush downstairs on the train so quickly... :idea: And he always seems to take his shoes and socks off too. Some of you Sydney train passengers will know who this guy is - he has been doing this for many years, everyone knows him. So well that one frustrated train guard announced over the PA system that the train could not move until he took his feet off the seat in front of him. :lol: Later when we left the train, someone asked was it that old guy again, everyone nodded in agreement. :roll:

None of this lack of respect can be put towards your least favourite kind of bicycle rider, it is just the way things are today. Maybe not just here, but across the wider world too.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 11:17 am

g-boaf wrote:Here, women, children and others hardly gain more sympathy in any respect.


I don't know about the rest of that rant. But my observations are vastly different. If a 8 year old child is riding along the road she/he gets treated vastly differently from a 40 year old MAMIL.

And the male and female difference is empirically proven. Sure not in Australia but you'd have to be kidding yourself if you don't think there is a difference here between the way an elderly lady on a sit up and beg is treated and a MAMIL.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby trailgumby » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:43 pm

human909, I think a lot of that varies by location. Cities, towns, suburbs, and even certain streets can have different driver cultures.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby you cannot be sirrus » Sat Aug 18, 2018 1:51 pm

Image

0645 this morning, three lane 80kph road with no other traffic and MM wants to share the lane with me and my mate.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby g-boaf » Sat Aug 18, 2018 2:45 pm

human909 wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Here, women, children and others hardly gain more sympathy in any respect.


I don't know about the rest of that rant. But my observations are vastly different. If a 8 year old child is riding along the road she/he gets treated vastly differently from a 40 year old MAMIL.

And the male and female difference is empirically proven. Sure not in Australia but you'd have to be kidding yourself if you don't think there is a difference here between the way an elderly lady on a sit up and beg is treated and a MAMIL.


And my observations differ to yours. Sydney is an aggressive city. The traffic is very, very aggressive. That's the way it is. Anyone who blocks the progress of a Sydney motorist is liable to get that treatment. If you are on a bike, in a car or whatever. Even kids on bikes.

In this city if you upset motorists, they'll taunt you with a chainsaw.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby mikesbytes » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:56 pm

g-boaf wrote:
human909 wrote:
g-boaf wrote:Here, women, children and others hardly gain more sympathy in any respect.


I don't know about the rest of that rant. But my observations are vastly different. If a 8 year old child is riding along the road she/he gets treated vastly differently from a 40 year old MAMIL.

And the male and female difference is empirically proven. Sure not in Australia but you'd have to be kidding yourself if you don't think there is a difference here between the way an elderly lady on a sit up and beg is treated and a MAMIL.


And my observations differ to yours. Sydney is an aggressive city. The traffic is very, very aggressive. That's the way it is. Anyone who blocks the progress of a Sydney motorist is liable to get that treatment. If you are on a bike, in a car or whatever. Even kids on bikes.

In this city if you upset motorists, they'll taunt you with a chainsaw.
I concur with g-boat. An example today, I was on Paramatta rd at 5dock driving in the middle lane, put my right indicator on and the car in the right lane slowed a little giving the impression that he was letting me in, as one does. BEEEEPPPP... BEEEEPPP... BEEEEPPP... then he stopped playing with his horn. A little later I put my right indicator on and pulled into the right turn lane. BEEEEPPP... as he drove past and he ended up behind the same car he was behind before I changed lanes
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby kenwstr » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:16 pm

you cannot be sirrus wrote:Image

0645 this morning, three lane 80kph road with no other traffic and MM wants to share the lane with me and my mate.


Most believe the only requirement is to keep 1m clearance now. Obviously can't cope with more than one thought for any give situation.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Sun Aug 19, 2018 6:23 pm

trailgumby wrote:human909, I think a lot of that varies by location. Cities, towns, suburbs, and even certain streets can have different driver cultures.


I have little doubt about it. And as somebody who (as most of you have heard) rave about the positive areas of Melbourne, I don't think outer suburbs of Melbourne would be a whole lot better than Sydney. Many of Melbourne's outer urban fringe are more car reliant than Sydney.
https://chartingtransport.com/

However my point remains that empathy is important. And some more extreme comments I struggle to believe the veracity. Eg;
g-boaf wrote:Here, women, children and others hardly gain more sympathy in any respect.


But maybe I'm just not jaded enough...


Oh and a bit of trivia. For what it is worth my only close pass collision was in Sydney. (Silly me I had briefly moved over and against my better judgement wasn't claiming the lane.) The woman who hit me was genuinely distraught and was in more shock over it than me. I would have blasted her but her sincerity held me back.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jasonc » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:13 pm


Image

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby redsonic » Tue Aug 21, 2018 12:42 pm

^^^^ That guy doesn't deserve a licence. At least he was consistent, though. After close passing you, he drove with his wheels on the left lane marking :roll:

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jasonc » Tue Aug 21, 2018 1:33 pm

So report him?
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Scott_C » Tue Aug 21, 2018 2:56 pm

jasonc wrote:So report him?

I would be hesitant to report him as you may have violated Road Rule 145 and from your earlier reports of police behaviour they might try and do you for it to stop you making reports and generating work for them.

It is a bad rule because it requires descending cyclists to sit on the brakes while being passed instead of allowing them to continue riding normally or coast but the rule may apply (I can't see if his wheels are on the centreline or not during the second pass).

I would at least check Strava and see if you did speed up while he was passing.

Quick Edit: Just noting that the driver is an a-hole and that was obviously not a safe pass regardless of Rule 145. I just wanted to warn you against a potential downside of reporting.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jasonc » Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:18 pm

Scott_C wrote:
jasonc wrote:So report him?

I would be hesitant to report him as you may have violated Road Rule 145 and from your earlier reports of police behaviour they might try and do you for it to stop you making reports and generating work for them.

It is a bad rule because it requires descending cyclists to sit on the brakes while being passed instead of allowing them to continue riding normally or coast but the rule may apply (I can't see if his wheels are on the centreline or not during the second pass).

I would at least check Strava and see if you did speed up while he was passing.

Quick Edit: Just noting that the driver is an a-hole and that was obviously not a safe pass regardless of Rule 145. I just wanted to warn you against a potential downside of reporting.

It's a nasty little pinch. I'm going to report it
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby uart » Tue Aug 21, 2018 6:26 pm

Scott_C wrote:I would be hesitant to report him as you may have violated Road Rule 145 and ...


I don't think Jason violated that rule.

The rule says that Jason shouldn't increase his speed to prevent the other driver passing (once the overtake has commenced). However in this case it was the overtaking driver that slowed rather than Jason speeding up. So that law is not an issue here, at least in my opinion.

The driver clearly tried to overtake where it wasn't appropriate - far too close to the intersection.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:00 pm

uart wrote:
Scott_C wrote:I would be hesitant to report him as you may have violated Road Rule 145 and ...


I don't think Jason violated that rule.

The rule says that Jason shouldn't increase his speed to prevent the other driver passing (once the overtake has commenced). However in this case it was the overtaking driver that slowed rather than Jason speeding up. So that law is not an issue here, at least in my opinion.

The driver clearly tried to overtake where it wasn't appropriate - far too close to the intersection.

And if he had completed the overtake in that attempt he would of overtaken in an intersection while turning left. Even despite this, did he turn left while the was another road user to his left? I'm wondering how many road laws have been breached?
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jasonc » Tue Aug 21, 2018 7:32 pm

mikesbytes wrote:I'm wondering how many road laws have been breached?

It's Indooroopilly police. A fine for mandatory passing distance will be a good start
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby mikesbytes » Tue Aug 21, 2018 10:47 pm

jasonc wrote:
mikesbytes wrote:I'm wondering how many road laws have been breached?

It's Indooroopilly police. A fine for mandatory passing distance will be a good start

Of course I don't know what that police station are like and you do, but speaking generically it seems that the police like things where there is a easy metric to assess, such as having your speed measured above the speed limit or crossing the line while the traffic light is red
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby BJL » Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:20 am

mikesbytes wrote:
uart wrote:
Scott_C wrote:I would be hesitant to report him as you may have violated Road Rule 145 and ...


I don't think Jason violated that rule.

The rule says that Jason shouldn't increase his speed to prevent the other driver passing (once the overtake has commenced). However in this case it was the overtaking driver that slowed rather than Jason speeding up. So that law is not an issue here, at least in my opinion.

The driver clearly tried to overtake where it wasn't appropriate - far too close to the intersection.

And if he had completed the overtake in that attempt he would of overtaken in an intersection while turning left. Even despite this, did he turn left while the was another road user to his left? I'm wondering how many road laws have been breached?


This is one area where the road rules need to be fixed. I find it bemusing that cyclists aren't allowed to pass to the left of a motor vehicle with its left hand indicator on and in the process of turning left, yet it's quite okay for motorists to pass to the right of cyclists while having the left hand indicator on and then left hook us. Motorists shouldn't be allowed to pass cyclists within 50 of making a turn from that lane. Too many time I've had motorists speed pass me only to slam on the brakes and make a turn soon afterwards forcing me to brake heavily. And as we all know, cyclists can't stop on a dime like motorists can, especially on a descent.

The sad thing is that the incident above and most others like it could be completely avoided if motorists would only wait a few seconds.

But no, apparently a few seconds of their life is more valuable than the rest of mine.

That idiot in the above video spent more time chatting to the cyclist (I can't hear what's said in the video) than he would have if he'd just showed a little patience and waited behind the cyclists before the intersection and then pass safely once the turn was completed. :(

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby fat and old » Wed Aug 22, 2018 12:32 pm

human909 wrote:
Yes it is a cultural difference but you have failed to address. WHY.


I’ve had the misfortune of riding trams in the CBD last few thursdays, from 4.30pm to 9.00pm. Before this the last time was a single journey early one sat. Morning in 2000, before that regularly until 1981. You have got to be kidding me people do this every day. There are two major cultural groups, and it’s no coincidence that they come from very populous countries and have no issue with just jamming on regardless.

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