Moron Motorists #3

open topic, for anything cycling related.

Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Summernight » Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:18 pm

outnabike wrote:I reckon the car should indicate left, making sure that no cyclist was there and then turn. The cyclist should slow behind any vehicle in the left turn lane and then follow on.


That's what NORMALLY happens with good drivers indicating and merging left at the correct point - no problems with those drivers as you know what they are doing and the merge is fairly seamless.

Having seen how the Dutch do a bicycle lane I have come to the conclusion that it is an insult to Copenhagen to call the Albert Street lanes 'Copenhagen lanes' (although maybe in Denmark they do it like we do and not like the Dutch... :roll: ).
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by BNA » Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:19 pm

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby zero » Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:19 pm

il padrone wrote:
wellington_street wrote:This conflict arrangement is essentially what we have now - i.e. turning vehicle must cross the path of the cyclist. Judging by the signals I am assuming it is a right turn, with the requirement to give way to cyclists. Ergo, it's still prone to the same give way issues we have now.

No, not the same at all.

1. The bike lane continues through the intersection, rather than ending before it like along Albert Street.
2. The bike lane is deviated to the right (would be left in Aus) to enable both driver and cyclist to have better line of sight at the crossing.
3. In the Dutch example the driver of the motor vehicle must give way to the cyclist. Not so on Albert Street if the cyclist passes left of the car.

How Dutch intersections are now designed.


Prime reason for the deviation is not sight, as it actually makes it slightly harder for the cyclist to look. The prime reason is to eliminate heavy vehicle crush on a stationary cyclist obeying the signals.

COS don't remotely understand that concept as they went to enormous lengths to add such to designs for side streets in the redfern path design, even though the side streets are simply not heavy vehicle traffic'd, and in some cases the cycle crossing was cycle priority, and would thus never have stationary cyclists to protect. Yet they do not have them in locations where there is common heavy traffic.
Last edited by zero on Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby zero » Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:20 pm

Summernight wrote:
outnabike wrote:I reckon the car should indicate left, making sure that no cyclist was there and then turn. The cyclist should slow behind any vehicle in the left turn lane and then follow on.


That's what NORMALLY happens with good drivers indicating and merging left at the correct point - no problems with those drivers as you know what they are doing and the merge is fairly seamless.

Having seen how the Dutch do a bicycle lane I have come to the conclusion that it is an insult to Copenhagen to call the Albert Street lanes 'Copenhagen lanes' (although maybe in Denmark they do it like we do and not like the Dutch... :roll: ).


Yeah there is a checklist of 10 things that make a copenhagen lane, that thus far COS has discovered 0 of, and Victoria has discovered 1 of.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:24 pm

zero wrote:


Prime reason for the deviation is not sight, as it actually makes it slightly harder for the cyclist to look. The prime reason is to eliminate heavy vehicle crush on a stationary cyclist obeying the signals.

Did you look at that Dutch video??

The change of both vehicles' alignment and stopping position is the major aspect of the design that makes it safer. It specifically makes the motorist give way at the crossing, and eliminates the cross-over of car and cyclist in motion before the intersection.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby wellington_street » Fri Feb 08, 2013 4:45 pm

il padrone wrote:
wellington_street wrote:This conflict arrangement is essentially what we have now - i.e. turning vehicle must cross the path of the cyclist. Judging by the signals I am assuming it is a right turn, with the requirement to give way to cyclists. Ergo, it's still prone to the same give way issues we have now.

No, not the same at all.

1. The bike lane continues through the intersection, rather than ending before it like along Albert Street.
2. The bike lane is deviated to the right (would be left in Aus) to enable both driver and cyclist to have better line of sight at the crossing.
3. In the Dutch example the driver of the motor vehicle must give way to the cyclist. Not so on Albert Street if the cyclist passes left of the car.

How Dutch intersections are now designed.


Not exactly spatially the same but I mean it is the same as in driver/cyclist must conflict at a point. In Aus, when done properly, that conflict point is at the start of the turn lane. In the Dutch example its at the junction. Both are prone to bad driving/breaking the road rules, as shown in Summernight's video, resulting in a collision.

The main difference is as you said in a subsequent post that the conflict occurs before the junction in Australia, rather than at the point of turning, as in teh Dutch example. Provided that the conflict point is clearly marked (e.g. green paint for the lane) the Australian version is quite good.

Note, I'm not referring to Albert St as that is a very poorly implemented project. Councils seem to love pretty stuff in mid block locations but are terrible at dealing with intersections.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby maestro » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:05 pm

outnabike wrote:From what I see, a car is making an illegal turn. The bike is in his correct lane and is in danger if he has to go into the right hand lane behind the illegal turning car.


That was my thought as well. When driving a car you would not expect a vehicle to turn across another complete lane, so why would you as a cyclist (yes, I know that there is an additional strange law around passing to the left of a car turning left, which in my opinion should only apply when cyclist and car are in the same lane).

It looks to be a typical MGIF where the car has wound up in the wrong lane as a result.

I think that had there been a collision then the car would be at fault as there would be precedents set by car on car collisions of a similar type (although I obviously cannot guarantee that).

I'm not sure how responsive your council is, but you could send them a link to the video. Maybe a simple measure such as continuing the cycle lane across the intersection in green paint would make drivers more aware of the potential problems here.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:25 pm

My answer to it is simple - the vulnerable road user (the one being given specfic protection) should continue to be given protection with priority at the intersection. Turning traffic should be required to give way to cyclists proceeding through in the bike lane. Continue the bike lane through the intersection.

Anything else is inconsistent - an 'on again, off again' scenario. Damned foolish road 'safety'.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby wellington_street » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:30 pm

il padrone wrote:My answer to it is simple - the vulnerable road user (the one being given specfic protection) should continue to be given protection with priority at the intersection. Turning traffic should be required to give way to cyclists proceeding through in the bike lane. Continue the bike lane through the intersection. Anything else is inconsistent - an 'on again, off again' scenario. Damned foolish road 'safety'.


We agree then. Albert St is a joke (as is St Kilda Rd and other similar examples) but the Dutch way isn't the only way to skin a cat.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby zero » Fri Feb 08, 2013 5:55 pm

il padrone wrote:
zero wrote:


Prime reason for the deviation is not sight, as it actually makes it slightly harder for the cyclist to look. The prime reason is to eliminate heavy vehicle crush on a stationary cyclist obeying the signals.

Did you look at that Dutch video??

The change of both vehicles' alignment and stopping position is the major aspect of the design that makes it safer. It specifically makes the motorist give way at the crossing, and eliminates the cross-over of car and cyclist in motion before the intersection.


I've seen it before. I'd be surprised if the maker perfectly understands all the rationales (or communicates them perfectly in english in an edited presentation with a goal length), and I've seen other documentation specifically regarding the pictured design in any case, as its commonly used. I researched its history when making a submission to a COS design once.

The indent is very definitely there to prevent turning motor vehicles contacting stationary cyclists. The forward position is a separate issue, and yes its there to make the cyclist more visible. The square kerb corner is there to prevent a motorist turning in quickly or accelerating during the turn. That makes it possible for them to give way if thats what the road rule requires, as giving way by a motorist is very definately a function of how easy it is to do, and the slower they are going the more likely they are to give way.

This is why HGV crush occurs in britain and rarely or never occurs to dutch riders - the dulux road paint based 'safety' system is inconsistent and allows individual designers and road authorities to make poor design calls because they foolishly prioritise turning traffic over safety and can do so easily when its just paint.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:03 pm

wellington_street wrote:We agree then. Albert St is a joke (as is St Kilda Rd and other similar examples) but the Dutch way isn't the only way to skin a cat.

For sure. The term "Copenhagen lane" is a bit of a misnomer anyway. They do their bike lanes most commonly rather differently in Copenhagen to what we've adopted in Melbourne.

Vertically-seperated lane
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Blue colour to delineate lane, including through intersections
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby wellington_street » Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:18 pm

I've always taken the term 'Copenhagen lane' to refer to either one-way (but more often two-way) cycle lanes separated physically from traffic by a kerb. Not sure if that's right, so happy to be corrected.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Summernight » Fri Feb 08, 2013 8:50 pm

The council in question for Albert Street is the mammoth City of Melbourne. Who have currently just started completely re-writing one of the major Melbourne CBD streets (La Trobe St) to be more 'bicycle friendly'. I think they are doing more of the same as in Albert Street except they may be putting in the extra cement island (like Swanston Street) just to spice things up.

Apparently the shop keepers are already being told that the new bicycle lanes are not the place to put their rubbish bins on collection days. :shock:

I don't like the Albert Street set-up because of the intersections and because the supposed segregating bollards do absolutely nothing to deter people illegally parking and blocking the bicycle lane ( taxis are repeat offenders in this regard even during clear way times). Not to mention that the distance between cars when parked and the bicycle lane is insufficient for the opening of doors so if I'm riding past after 6:30pm every parked car is a potential dooring. And don't get me started on peds thinking it is an extra wide footpath.

I do like the segregation aspect though, especially when I sail past the cars all banked up waiting to turn into Hoddle Street in the afternoon peak. 8)
And compared to the gutter lane in Collins Street that passes for a bicycle lane ( less than a metre wide and half is the gutter) it is luxury. :P I should post pictures of THAT joy in peak hour.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby outnabike » Fri Feb 08, 2013 10:16 pm

Hi il padrone,
Those pics of the Holland cycling are great. It is what I imagine general cycling to be about, and how the average bloke should go about his business. You hop on your bike and off you go. There's is a guy in a suite, a guy in thongs, most just casually dressed. No fuss. No blind allegiance to some itlo-american fad to sell plastic pants, No necessity to be hunched over a set of drop bars......reminds me of when I was a kid and the men all turned the drops up for an easy riding position, and us kids were the rebels on our semi racers with the modern bent bars.
I would say that not one of those folk would know what a chamois was, let alone rubbing cream all over your bum. :lol:
Here you are just a hipster on a bso and something to be looked down on. A clipless wonder with a bell and a litre water bottle. :D
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby DavidS » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:15 pm

I suspect they have been told this many many times, but the supposed Copenhagen lanes in Melbourne City Council areas are worse than a joke, they are downright dangerous. One thing I notice with the Copenhagen lanes in Copenhagen is that there are no cars parked along the road. That is one of the major problems of the silly lanes we have on Swanston St. Parked cars block the view of cyclists and drivers and make the bike lane invisible. Add to this lots of driveways and cars coming out from large car parks under apartment blocks, cars which must sit over the bike lane if they are to see the traffic on Swanston St, and what you have is a road designed to create accidents. We should lobby the Melbourne City Council to rip up their silly half baked bike lanes.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Fri Feb 08, 2013 11:27 pm

DavidS wrote:One thing I notice with the Copenhagen lanes in Copenhagen is that there are no cars parked along the road.

Eggsackerly!!

You'd think the City of Melbourne transport planners and bicycle planners could do a smidgeon of research (say with Google) and find that out.........?????

:roll:
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jasonc » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:17 am

il padrone wrote:
DavidS wrote:One thing I notice with the Copenhagen lanes in Copenhagen is that there are no cars parked along the road.

Eggsackerly!!

You'd think the City of Melbourne transport planners and bicycle planners could do a smidgeon of research (say with Google) and find that out.........?????

:roll:


I've had a "discussion" with Brisbane City Council in regards to ONE parking spot on sylvan Rd toowong and it's impact on the safety of cyclists. I was told to "Not hold my breath"

that's 1 spot. not the hundreds along those streets....
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby rosscojj » Sat Feb 09, 2013 3:25 pm

I got left hooked heading back into town today after a nice ride out to the local res. I was taking it slow through this section as it is dangerous for dooring. Lucky I just saw the blinker out of the corner of my eye and hit the brakes hard. Quick detour through KFC to see if he stopped.

********Language Warning********


http://youtu.be/G7qhRuKCp4M
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby il padrone » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:07 pm

Nice view of the rego there. Wonder whether a chat with your local Police would lead to some words spoken?
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby ozzymac » Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:59 pm

And that is meant to be a bike lane.......

Looks very dangerous, notice he was half sticking out when you went past him, probably didn't appreciate having to wait for you to go past.



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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby clydesmcdale » Sat Feb 09, 2013 6:56 pm

Quite liked that it could be seen that you had to apply your brakes hard too. Good camera setup
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby trailgumby » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:24 pm

Yep, report it. Burn a DVD and use Oxford's template. Can't prove it, but I reckon that was intentional. At least you can get him for failing to give way.

I reckon that was payback for whatever you said as you passed when he was obstructing the bike lane.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby rosscojj » Sat Feb 09, 2013 7:39 pm

I have downloaded the template and will report it on Monday. I think I just mumbled something as I went past him, can't remember what it was. Think I will avoid this spot when I can, too many hazards.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Summernight » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:10 pm

rosscojj wrote:I got left hooked heading back into town today after a nice ride out to the local res. I was taking it slow through this section as it is dangerous for dooring. Lucky I just saw the blinker out of the corner of my eye and hit the brakes hard. Quick detour through KFC to see if he stopped.

********Language Warning********


http://youtu.be/G7qhRuKCp4M


Far out. That's brutal. Glad your reflexes and spidey sense are in great working order. Hope the Police take this further.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Howzat » Sat Feb 09, 2013 8:37 pm

rosscojj wrote:Think I will avoid this spot when I can, too many hazards.

Not wrong there. Those dooring-zone bike lanes present risks you can't control.

And because of the presence of the suicide lane, you'd get a lot of aggro from drivers if you rode in the main lane.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Undertow » Sun Feb 10, 2013 1:21 pm

Howzat wrote:
rosscojj wrote:Think I will avoid this spot when I can, too many hazards.

Not wrong there. Those dooring-zone bike lanes present risks you can't control.

And because of the presence of the suicide lane, you'd get a lot of aggro from drivers if you rode in the main lane.


With two traffic lanes there I'd be riding in left lane and not in the door lane.
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