Moron Motorists #3

[schroeds]

"On Wednesday, just a week before Christmas, six-year-old Akshay Balan was instantly killed by a Carlingford mother who was attempting a three-point-turn in a school driveway during the final morning drop-off for the year....Police believe the Carlingford mother may have accidentally hit the accelerator and ploughed into Akshay, his mother Fung Yin Ong, Zoe and Zoe's four-year-old sister Ellie, who fractured her pelvis".

it's not hard to make this sort of mistake. i don't think it's fair to persecute the driver.r.

Mate, she was doing a three point turn in the school driveway...that ain't no mistake. And a kid paid for it with their life.

KB I like the idea of Psych eval. Suspect that would thin out the traffic a bit.

Padrone, yes I drew a long bow...to make a point about bad driver behaviour and a general disregard for others - even the most innocent - when behind the wheel. Yes my second point has nothing to do with speeding.. I made two separate points, one about speeding in school zones and one about the MM and the three point turn.

Question to you: what has giving kids independence got to do with preventing people hooning through school zones...now THAT's a long and very weird bow

[Mulger bill]

Living, as I do, fairly close to a school zone speed limit on a major distributor street, that will now subject us to a 40kmh limit for the next 5 weeks, 24hrs a day with not a kid in sight, I've got to say that I am a bit over speed zones like this. If it really is so dangerous for the kiddies (who are normally all being dropped off by metro-mummy in her Audi SUV) then just make it easier for all - make all residential streets 40kmh speed limit.

Is it different down there??? Up here 40kmh school zones only apply on school days.

Partly, if the road is part of a 50 zone (which covers ~90% of residential areas) then yes, permanent 40 km/h at all times, if 60 or above then it's only during the mad mummy times 0800-0930 and 1430-1600.

[ldrcycles]

Living, as I do, fairly close to a school zone speed limit on a major distributor street, that will now subject us to a 40kmh limit for the next 5 weeks, 24hrs a day with not a kid in sight, I've got to say that I am a bit over speed zones like this. If it really is so dangerous for the kiddies (who are normally all being dropped off by metro-mummy in her Audi SUV) then just make it easier for all - make all residential streets 40kmh speed limit.

Is it different down there??? Up here 40kmh school zones only apply on school days.

Partly, if the road is part of a 50 zone (which covers ~90% of residential areas) then yes, permanent 40 km/h at all times, if 60 or above then it's only during the mad mummy times 0800-0930 and 1430-1600.

I don't know if it's different down there but in Qld there is a lot of variation in school zone times, they recently announced a plan to cut back on variation but it's still far from consistent.

[g-boaf]

Perhaps a way to stop MM activity it to tell them that EVERY dollar in traffic infringement fines goes towards building cycle paths on roads!

This would be brilliant!

As for the Carlingford incident - I wonder if putting no parking zones (residents excepted and given permits) around schools would be a good idea. Parking inspectors could issue fines for those violating the no-parking zones. Clearly something has to be done because school zones around drop-off and pick-up times become a bit crazy at least in this area.

"On Wednesday, just a week before Christmas, six-year-old Akshay Balan was instantly killed by a Carlingford mother who was attempting a three-point-turn in a school driveway during the final morning drop-off for the year....Police believe the Carlingford mother may have accidentally hit the accelerator and ploughed into Akshay, his mother Fung Yin Ong, Zoe and Zoe's four-year-old sister Ellie, who fractured her pelvis".

http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/carlingford-s ... z2oBAFvPjH" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Here's my question: should an intelligence test to be included in the licensing process?

it's not hard to make this sort of mistake. i don't think it's fair to persecute the driver. i've done a lot of driving including performance driving courses and even had a road testing gig for a few years, but i've become flustered behind the wheel. if you overload your senses, that will happen - to anyone. the problem here is potentially - based on media reports - a chaotic school pickup zone placing drivers under high cognitive stress. mistakes will happen in that circumstance. there's little gain in focusing on blaming the driver.

While I believe the driver will now be utterly broken for the rest of their life, I also think that if you were aware of the severity of injuries that caused the death of the child, you'd probably put some more emphasis on the driver's actions.

[il padrone]

Mate, she was doing a three point turn in the school driveway...that ain't no mistake. And a kid paid for it with their life.

I think you'll find it will turn out to be a three-point turn in the street, using the school driveway. That is no illegal act. The question of mistake, negligence or both is yet to be determined. I'll leave it all to the police and the coroner.

And yes, it was an apalling action for any driver to be responsible for. At the very least an extremely grave and damning 'mistake'.

Padrone, yes I drew a long bow...to make a point about bad driver behaviour and a general disregard for others - even the most innocent - when behind the wheel.

Your quoted data was all about speeding on entry to, or exit from, school zones. How much of that was drivers doing 42 as they slowed to the 40 ?? How much of an attempt to kill little children is that ??

Gosh I hope you ride a holy white charger

Question to you: what has giving kids independence got to do with preventing people hooning through school zones...now THAT's a long and very weird bow

Pretty simple really. 1. I question the extent of the "hooning" you claim. 2. More independent kids, walking and riding to school = much less cars driving about school zones. And police can concentrate more on keeping the speeds of the fewer drivers under control. Idea: have a look at just how much (little) traffic there is on the roads now, and for the next 5 weeks.

[il padrone]

Living, as I do, fairly close to a school zone speed limit on a major distributor street, that will now subject us to a 40kmh limit for the next 5 weeks, 24hrs a day with not a kid in sight, I've got to say that I am a bit over speed zones like this. If it really is so dangerous for the kiddies (who are normally all being dropped off by metro-mummy in her Audi SUV) then just make it easier for all - make all residential streets 40kmh speed limit.

Is it different down there??? Up here 40kmh school zones only apply on school days.

In a residential area, with a 50kmh limit, the 40kmh school zone applies full-time. At 11.30pm on a Sunday night I find it just a tad galling and irrelevant. The particular street I am talking about is a wide straight road with excellent sight-lines. 50kmh is OK but rather conservative for the conditions. 40kmh is a crawl. Just my opinion though. I do wish I would see more kids, or even pedestrians about to justify it

[Lukeyboy]

Well in Queensland the 40kph speed limit only applies during school hours regardless if its a residential, industrial, rural area, 50kph limit, 70kph limit or 100kph limit. Outside that its the posted speed. That was one of the new rules brought forward not too long ago in that all school zones were assigned a fixed speed and time (school days 7am-9am and 2pm-4pm) on dedicated signage whereas previously that changed between council to council IIRC. If the school zone times are different then flashing lights must be installed on the school zone signs that activate during these times.

[il padrone]

Here it is. You be the judge

[Lukeyboy]

I have no issues with that. It's the assigned speed limit so that's what you got to do. Yes it might suck but that's the rules. But as I said before in Queensland things are different when it comes to school zones. We have the state wide standard school zone signs.

Outside those times the normal posted speed signs apply. If you are doing 60kph before the start of the school zone and its outside the school zone times then you maintain 60kph through the school zone. If its 8am on a public holiday then you still maintain the 60kph through the school zone.

It's rare but in some rural towns the speed limit can be 100kph. You can legally do 100kph past the school at 1pm but at 2.45pm you must be doing 40kph.

[il padrone]

I have no issues with that. It's the assigned speed limit so that's what you got to do

I'm a big believer in speed limits that suit the conditions, while still having good regard for the safety of cyclists and pedestrians. Crawling at 40kmh along an empty road at 11pm is pretty silly.

It's rare but in some rural towns the speed limit can be 100kph. You can legally do 100kph past the school at 1pm but at 2.45pm you must be doing 40kph.

Crikey! One heck of a sudden speed drop to pull

On our roads with limits of 80kmh and above the school zone limit is usually just 60kmh. One road that I drive to work along (six-lane divided arterial) has a 70kmh limit, and a school zone was 40kmh. But drivers would never see any kids on the roadside. Just never! I don't know what happened but now the school-zone illuminated signs are not being used. The limit stands as 70 past this school.

[Lukeyboy]

And yet when the CBD is dead quiet on a Sunday night does that give me the right to break the 40kph limit? If Victoria doesn't have the varying speed signs like Queensland does and relies on fixed speeds through the school zone then until variable speed signs are introduced tuff bickies I say.

Pretty sure its 40kph since the changes. Haven't really been rural since the changes. There were 2 variants from what I remember (60 and 80kph) which was dependent on the location and how vehicles enter/exit the school or the direct area. But this is in proper rural areas where the road passes the town/school but its not the main drop off/pick up area (usually on via a side street). The few times I have seen them they are well signed 300-500m prior to the start of the school zone and the school zones itself have to be a minimum of 300m. It's one of the few times you actually see a black circle around the speed. I can't remember where or the speed but it was a big sign with an orange border with a black speed and circle with school zone ahead written on it. Below that was a distance marker. That was followed shortly with the school days/times sign before the same warning sign with a new distance.

[jules21]

it's pretty well established that school zone speed limits were a symbolic policy that have had no measurable benefit for road safety. if anything, kids are better controlled around schools. they are most at risk elsewhere. of course, school speed limits would seem to have done nothing to protect the child who was killed in sydney recently.

having said that, 40km/h around most urban streets (not arterial roads) is reasonable i think.

[il padrone]

And yet when the CBD is dead quiet on a Sunday night does that give me the right to break the 40kph limit?

The CBD, even on a Sunday night, has much greater potential, and real, pedestrian traffic than these local roads on a school holiday Sunday evening. I guess that Sydney must be the quiet ol' hicksville people have been telling me about


The blanket 50kmh speed limits have been very effective for safety in residentail areas. I would be happier with a blanket 40 if we really want to prevent local street injuries.

[Lukeyboy]

You haven't seen parts of Brisbane's CBD at night then. It can be a ghost town at 5am!

[zero]

Mate, she was doing a three point turn in the school driveway...that ain't no mistake. And a kid paid for it with their life.

I think you'll find it will turn out to be a three-point turn in the street, using the school driveway. That is no illegal act. The question of mistake, negligence or both is yet to be determined. I'll leave it all to the police and the coroner.

And yes, it was an apalling action for any driver to be responsible for. At the very least an extremely grave and damning 'mistake'.

Nah its actually part of a systemic problem in that its not illegal to drive a motor vehicle at pedestrians. The driver likely had the plan of driving into the driveway and stopping just short of the pedestrians. Any of multiple things going wrong (fail brake, misjudge braking distance, wrongpedal, unexpected bounce or grip loss) all wind up with the car striking the pedestrians, because the car was aligned with the pedestrians. The speed after the wrongpedal is pretty obvious - the strength of the wrongpedal is usually equal to the strength of the braking the driver intended. The faster one approaches the stopping point the worse it typically is.

IMO anyone that intends driving a car on a course aligned with a pedestrian to within a couple of feet of that pedestrian on a footpath is pretty much negligent. Especially coming off the carriageway, since a prudent person can stop the car on the carriageway first.

[il padrone]

Ahh, my mistake. Not Syds but Brissa - explains all.

[jasonc]

Could take Arthur's Seat but that would be a bitching start to the day.

that'd be the one I'd do, but I'm nuts

[jasonc]

As for the Carlingford incident - I wonder if putting no parking zones (residents excepted and given permits) around schools would be a good idea.

have always said this. make the parents walk 500m-1km with the kiddies.
1. gives everyone exercise.
2. stops everyone trying to get that 1 spot right next to the gate
3. disperses traffic

[schroeds]

it's pretty well established that school zone speed limits were a symbolic policy that have had no measurable benefit for road safety. if anything, kids are better controlled around schools. they are most at risk elsewhere. of course, school speed limits would seem to have done nothing to protect the child who was killed in sydney recently..

SMH on the weekend said children deaths around schools have halved since the school zones were introduced.

Tend to agree with no parking near schools although its possible you're simply moving the problem elsewhere to a less protected environment?

[jasonc]

Tend to agree with no parking near schools although its possible you're simply moving the problem elsewhere to a less protected environment?

i disagree. if you put no standing zones for lets say 500m around the school. all of a sudden you've gone from having everyone park on one or two streets to the cars being distributed on a dozen or so streets. reduced density over a larger area = more chance of drivers seeing kids

[biker jk]

And yet when the CBD is dead quiet on a Sunday night does that give me the right to break the 40kph limit?

The CBD, even on a Sunday night, has much greater potential, and real, pedestrian traffic than these local roads on a school holiday Sunday evening. I guess that Sydney must be the quiet ol' hicksville people have been telling me about


The blanket 50kmh speed limits have been very effective for safety in residentail areas. I would be happier with a blanket 40 if we really want to prevent local street injuries.

The speed limit in my suburb is 40kmh. It's quite well sign posted and there are speed humps in appropriate areas. I do believe there needs to be better enforcement, however. I have never seen mobile speed cameras. The exception is Oxford St, an arterial road, where the speed limit is 50kmh. There is a 40kmh school zone along it with flashing lights and regular enforcement with mobile speed cameras (and yes I have seen many cyclists pulled over for speeding).

[jules21]

SMH on the weekend said children deaths around schools have halved since the school zones were introduced.

they've also halved since i stopped drinking 4 cups of coffee a day. who knew coffee was killing kids outside schools?

[Mulger bill]

One of my biggest beefs with camera enforcement is that they seem to be placed to maximize hits rather than where x velocity is a known and obvious problem.
Gov't thinking revolves around catching speeders, NOT stopping them. Get visible and forgo dollars for a tangible reduction of recorded speeds.
A big marked flouro box on the roadside every few hundred metres everywhere with random allocation of camera hardware on a 10% basis should see a big improvement in actual road safety but with the negative impact of a loss to gov't revenue.

[jules21]

shaun, the theory is that concealing the cameras denies drivers that sense of security that they can just speed up again after they pass the camera site. the purpose of placing them on high-volume sites is to condition the maximum number of drivers against speeding. the thinking is that after a couple of speeding fines, drivers become resigned to staying within the speed limits - everywhere - i.e. obeying speed limits becomes a habit. of course, by happy coincidence, it also earns them the maximum amount of money.

i used to hate speed cameras and have paid a considerable sum of money in fines (not for a long time now), but eventually i just decided to stop speeding (and then driving..) it's not that hard to do. now i see speeding fines as a voluntary tax. if you insist on speeding, then pay the tax. people call it revenue raising - which let's face it, it is - but that's what tax is. they need to raise revenue, that's how govts work. there's no shame in that. it's just a question of who they collect it off.

[il padrone]

shaun, the theory is that concealing the cameras denies drivers that sense of security that they can just speed up again after they pass the camera site. the purpose of placing them on high-volume sites is to condition the maximum number of drivers against speeding. the thinking is that after a couple of speeding fines, drivers become resigned to staying within the speed limits - everywhere - i.e. obeying speed limits becomes a habit.

This works.

Try driving along Alexandra Pde, Fitzroy. Watch everyone pull the speeds back to 60kmh The cameras there are even at known locations (every intersection) but all the traffic sticks t the limit. The benefit of a rigorous enforcement program. I had a couple of fines where I got caught at 10pm, heading home from the bike club meeting on an empty 3-lane carriageway and did 70. Flash..... ping!

I stick to 60