I was thinking that, ideally, bicycle routes should be on roads which are not bus routes. (Which isn't to say that the cyclists can't use the bus routes, just that there should be alternatives especially for less confident riders). Looking at the map, I see that's not really feasible in this particular situation (or perhaps even in most situations).human909 wrote:Yet this happens all the time with regular roads. Traffic has to deal with buses stopping, I'm not sure why cyclists should be an exception.AdelaidePeter wrote:Though I still think it's often poor planning to put the bicycle lane along a road with (non-indented) bus stops.
For an existing road with a bus route, how else are you suggesting bike lanes should be put in? (Sure an ideal solution would be total separation but realistically that is not achievable in Australia at the moment.)
Moron Motorists #3
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby AdelaidePeter » Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:31 pm
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby human909 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:20 pm
International and local experience doesn't indicate this. Major thoroughfares exist for a reason and provision for most/all transport types is normally ideal. Cutting out buses or cyclists from consideration in major thoroughfares is simply not equitable, practical or safe.AdelaidePeter wrote:I was thinking that, ideally, bicycle routes should be on roads which are not bus routes. (Which isn't to say that the cyclists can't use the bus routes, just that there should be alternatives especially for less confident riders).
Sure sometimes parallel bicycle routes can be preferable if they meet the needs of cyclists but for multiple reasons they often don't. Likewise a parallel route should negate the need for providing safe cycling infrastructure on nearby roads. A clear example of this that is local to me is Sydney Road and the Upfield Bikepath in Brunswick. 100m apart and parallel, but for multiple reasons it is not practical to assume all cyclists will use the Upfield bike path.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby CaffeineAU » Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:24 pm
Edit: They appear to have come to their senses now (or some time in the 25 years since I was there)
https://goo.gl/maps/EMRSjPjHouB2
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby AdelaidePeter » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:21 pm
To me that's just about a text book example of a road which should not called be a bicycle route! But we're drifting off topic. I might take it up again in a different thread when I have more time.human909 wrote:AdelaidePeter wrote: Sure sometimes parallel bicycle routes can be preferable if they meet the needs of cyclists but for multiple reasons they often don't. Likewise a parallel route should negate the need for providing safe cycling infrastructure on nearby roads. A clear example of this that is local to me is Sydney Road and the Upfield Bikepath in Brunswick. 100m apart and parallel, but for multiple reasons it is not practical to assume all cyclists will use the Upfield bike path.
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Meanwhile, the cars are either more stupid, or more evil
Postby Thoglette » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:27 pm
* Teslas keeps crashing (per the manual)
* MB has chosen to proritise the driver over other road users.
The latter should not be surprising after an MB car decided to "brake test" some cyclists.
Have Mercedes Benz been hiring people from the VW engine management group or something?
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: Meanwhile, the cars are either more stupid, or more evil
Postby AdelaidePeter » Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:39 pm
I'm much more optimistic. Yes self-driving cars aren't great now, but in X years they'll be better than most humans, though I'm not sure if X is more like 5 or 30.Thoglette wrote:Retrogrouch reports in Ethical Conundrums
that
* Tesla keeps crashing (per the manual)
* MB has chosen to proritise the driver over anyone else.
The latter should not be surprising after an MB car decided to "brake test" some cyclists.
Have they been hiring people from the VW engine management unit or something?
I also think that these hypotheticals, when the computer has to choose the life of its passengers over the life of a 3rd party cyclist/pedestrian/other driver, will be extremely rare. So rare that 3rd party deaths caused by them will be far, far less than 3rd party deaths caused these days by human drivers.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby human909 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:07 pm
That is an odd claim. Considering:AdelaidePeter wrote:To me that's just about a text book example of a road which should not called be a bicycle route! But we're drifting off topic. I might take it up again in a different thread when I have more time.
In peak: "Sydney Road in Coburg has the slowest off-peak traffic in Melbourne, averaging 9km/h between Harding Street and Bell Street."
Bike route? Call it whatever you want. Cyclists want to ride to get to their destination. If their destination is on that road how else are they to get there? Are you seriously suggesting on this forum that safety provisions for cyclists should not be provide in areas where cyclist frequent?
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Re: Meanwhile, the cars are either more stupid, or more evil
Postby uart » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:28 pm
Interesting read. I wonder how long it will be before they start lobbying for cyclists to carry mandatory transponders for their own safety (against self driving tech)? Not really looking forward to it.Thoglette wrote:Retrogrouch reports in Ethical Conundrums that
* Teslas keeps crashing (per the manual)
* MB has chosen to proritise the driver over other road users.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby MichaelB » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:33 pm
Riders can ride on any road, whether there is a 'marked cycle lane' or not. Where you choose to ride, confidence or not, is up to each individual. We do have enough nouse to be able to plan a route ourselves.AdelaidePeter wrote:
I was thinking that, ideally, bicycle routes should be on roads which are not bus routes. (Which isn't to say that the cyclists can't use the bus routes, just that there should be alternatives especially for less confident riders). Looking at the map, I see that's not really feasible in this particular situation (or perhaps even in most situations).
Whilst I'd love to have cycle routes free of other traffic, I'm sensible enough to know that that is never going to happen.
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Re: Meanwhile, the cars are either more stupid, or more evil
Postby London Boy » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:56 pm
Just carry a transponder that says, "I'm a tank". "And I have a big gun".uart wrote:Interesting read. I wonder how long it will be before they start lobbying for cyclists to carry mandatory transponders for their own safety (against self driving tech)? Not really looking forward to it.Thoglette wrote:Retrogrouch reports in Ethical Conundrums that
* Teslas keeps crashing (per the manual)
* MB has chosen to proritise the driver over other road users.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby warthog1 » Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:59 pm
I guess I'm lucky not living in a major city.MichaelB wrote:Riders can ride on any road, whether there is a 'marked cycle lane' or not. Where you choose to ride, confidence or not, is up to each individual. We do have enough nouse to be able to plan a route ourselves.AdelaidePeter wrote:
I was thinking that, ideally, bicycle routes should be on roads which are not bus routes. (Which isn't to say that the cyclists can't use the bus routes, just that there should be alternatives especially for less confident riders). Looking at the map, I see that's not really feasible in this particular situation (or perhaps even in most situations).
Whilst I'd love to have cycle routes free of other traffic, I'm sensible enough to know that that is never going to happen.
(I like Adelaide as a city though, it is one of the few in which I could happily live)
I choose routes away from traffic where possible.
It's just so much more pleasant
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby ironhanglider » Tue Mar 06, 2018 11:19 pm
Before this started a conversation of it's own did anyone notice that this was a first post?cycosis wrote:This morning I was riding in the bicycle lane on Gardiner Rd in Notting Hill and a bus pulls up next to me getting closer and closer and then right on top of me and stops, I had to go out into traffic to get around it while the bus took on passengers.
Welcome cycosis, I wish it were under better circumstances.
I suspect that your forum name may have been overlooked due to its similarity to a regular poster bychosis.
Having a bus squeeze you into the gutter is downright scary. A complaint to the company might with route location, direction and time might prompt an appropriate response. Many busses have cameras, and the footage might be useful for some driver training.
Cheers,
Cameron
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby jasonc » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:40 am
amenironhanglider wrote:Welcome cycosis, I wish it were under better circumstances.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby bychosis » Thu Mar 08, 2018 7:19 am
This morning I slowed to ensure a driver gave way at a roundabout, he did. Then in the next 100m is another roundabout so I sat up indicated right and moved to the centre then right of the lane.
Had to stop at the roundabout due to traffic from the right. The Ute then pulled up alongside, I assume to turn left. When I got a gap I took off and so did the ute and continued to move to overtake on the outside of a one lane roundabout that then turns into a single merge lane to join a slip lane. I moved out to centre of lane to ensure there was no squeeze room.
Had the windows been down a character assessment may have been provided, but I had to make do with a ‘what are you doing?’ gesture.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby find_bruce » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:04 am
The knucklehead then points to a narrow shared path & suggest I should ride there. Only two problems (1) there is a 4 foot high concrete barrier between the road & that path & (2) Danny MaCaskill I'm not.
Me jumping that barrier is about as improbable was what I was tempted to suggest he do with himself
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby kenwstr » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:26 am
Been overtaken and undertaken on roundabouts a few times. One of their favorites is to try to wipe you out on the gutter on exit. I try to approach small roundabouts at least 30 kmph lane centre and time arrival in a gap. Often just off a rear corner to be within in the avoid zone of that motor vehicle. This way I become part of the existing flow and have 2 ton shield, much fewer incidences. Have to adjust position to ensure you are visible to cars entering though.bychosis wrote:What goes through their minds?
This morning I slowed to ensure a driver gave way at a roundabout, he did. Then in the next 100m is another roundabout so I sat up indicated right and moved to the centre then right of the lane.
Had to stop at the roundabout due to traffic from the right. The Ute then pulled up alongside, I assume to turn left. When I got a gap I took off and so did the ute and continued to move to overtake on the outside of a one lane roundabout that then turns into a single merge lane to join a slip lane. I moved out to centre of lane to ensure there was no squeeze room.
Had the windows been down a character assessment may have been provided, but I had to make do with a ‘what are you doing?’ gesture.
Ken
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby Mulger bill » Thu Mar 08, 2018 12:52 pm
London Boy 29/12/2011
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby AdelaidePeter » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:17 pm
I think what goes through their minds is that bicycles are so slow that they can safely be overtaken on a roundabout.bychosis wrote:What goes through their minds?
This morning I slowed to ensure a driver gave way at a roundabout, he did. Then in the next 100m is another roundabout so I sat up indicated right and moved to the centre then right of the lane.
Had to stop at the roundabout due to traffic from the right. The Ute then pulled up alongside, I assume to turn left. When I got a gap I took off and so did the ute and continued to move to overtake on the outside of a one lane roundabout that then turns into a single merge lane to join a slip lane. I moved out to centre of lane to ensure there was no squeeze room.
Had the windows been down a character assessment may have been provided, but I had to make do with a ‘what are you doing?’ gesture.
It's a sad that I have to do this, but my modus operandi is to avoid all but the smallest roundabouts, wherever possible.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby Thoglette » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:03 pm
I have to find the cite (I'm pretty sure it's a dutch cycling embassy paper) but IIRC multi-lane roundabouts have a very bad record and are "not recommended".AdelaidePeter wrote:It's a sad that I have to do this, but my modus operandi is to avoid all but the smallest roundabouts, wherever possible.
Certainly matches my experience. The only thing to do is keep up as much speed as possible. Fine if one is in lycra mode. Not so good when dressed in civvies.
"People are worthy of respect, ideas are not." Peter Ellerton, UQ
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby Scott_C » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:25 pm
Austroads also have a paper on cyclist safety at roundabouts:Thoglette wrote:I have to find the cite (I'm pretty sure it's a dutch cycling embassy paper) but IIRC multi-lane roundabouts have a very bad record and are "not recommended".AdelaidePeter wrote:It's a sad that I have to do this, but my modus operandi is to avoid all but the smallest roundabouts, wherever possible.
Certainly matches my experience. The only thing to do is keep up as much speed as possible. Fine if one is in lycra mode. Not so good when dressed in civvies.
https://www.onlinepublications.austroad ... AP-R461-14
They decided it was too risky to send their researchers onto multilane roundabouts, "High-speed, multi-lane roundabouts were not studied due to the unacceptable risk the researchers would have been exposed to."
Despite the peak body identifying that high speed multi-lane roundabouts are too dangerous to cyclists to ethically send researchers out to ride on them the roads authorities continue to build new ones.
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby DavidS » Sat Mar 10, 2018 12:38 am
I go in front of them and they honk, I flip the bird. Then he starts abusing me: says he doesn't have to give way to me as I was in a bike lane (there isn't one and that's irrelevant anyway). His opinion was that he didn't have to give way to me even facing a stop sign because I'm on a bike. Where the hell do they get this idea? Totally contrary to the road rules. You can't reason with someone who is so ignorant.
DS
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby kenwstr » Sat Mar 10, 2018 9:44 am
DavidS wrote:Riding west along Park St South Melbourne, nasty intersection where cars often just come straight out in front of you (cnr Wells St). Car tries to come across my path (Park St has right of way, Wells St has a stop sign).
I go in front of them and they honk, I flip the bird. Then he starts abusing me: says he doesn't have to give way to me as I was in a bike lane (there isn't one and that's irrelevant anyway). His opinion was that he didn't have to give way to me even facing a stop sign because I'm on a bike. Where the hell do they get this idea? Totally contrary to the road rules. You can't reason with someone who is so ignorant.
DS
Oh um Facebook, Twitter, the Pub. Authoritative sources like that, take your pick.
You know, bicycles shouldn't be on the road, therefore I have right of way at all times. Dipsticks logic!
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby Ross » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:53 pm
Very little except thoughts about themselvesbychosis wrote:What goes through their minds?
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby Ross » Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:57 pm
http://www.news.com.au/technology/innov ... ae8aa3b8a7
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Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby Cheesewheel » Sun Mar 11, 2018 4:11 pm
A bit dated from a few months ago, but in this case, the facebook douchebagginess of a motor cyclist played a part in mooting his compensation claim with a Hyundai terracan.
(As a side note, I can't believe a car company decided to name one of their models a terracan)
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