Moron Motorists #3

human909
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:05 pm

bychosis wrote:Sorry, I didn't mean that the cycle lanes dissapearing at the roundabouts was stupid.

No problems. Apologies for my confusion.

bychosis wrote:but more that having the 'dooring' lanes was daft as it expects the cyclist to ride in the door lane and then merge in and out at the roundabout. Leads to conflicts between users - as we can see.

I somewhat agree, and I do think that we can agree on the dangers of 'dooring' lanes.

That said the treatment on this road is very common in the area and from my frequent experience it works well with minimal conflict. Most motorists are patient and respectful of cyclists and conflict does not occur.

Ideally I'd like to see the traffic markings get updated to cyclist merge lines. This reduces confusion from cyclists and motorists alike.
https://goo.gl/maps/uzesMzPh8a32

cogs19
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby cogs19 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:22 pm

InTheWoods wrote:What a douche driver.

FWIW, I'm curious to know if it really was a bicycle lane under your state's road rules, or just a look-alike. If its not a real bicycle lane then technically you are supposed to give way to cars on the road when entering the road from a road related area.


It's a bike lane - it has a posted sign. My experience is that most marked lanes in Victoria have the correct signage ie if it's painted on the road there will invariably be a posted sign. I've read, with great concern, that some other states are lax with providing the correct signage.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby AdelaidePeter » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:24 pm

cogs19 wrote:Typical issue of wanting to get in front of me and failing, so honked at me persistently. I slowed in the roundabout and gestured "what do you want" and there was a flurry of activity in the driver seat indicating for me to move over to the left - which I refused to do.


Let me preface this by saying that there is no excuse for her behaviour and I hope she gets prosecuted.

But... I've watched the video and I can only hear one short beep. I don't understand why you didn't just ride on and ignore her, instead of slowing down and having a confrontation.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby AdelaidePeter » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:26 pm

cogs19 wrote:
InTheWoods wrote:What a douche driver.

FWIW, I'm curious to know if it really was a bicycle lane under your state's road rules, or just a look-alike. If its not a real bicycle lane then technically you are supposed to give way to cars on the road when entering the road from a road related area.


It's a bike lane - it has a posted sign. My experience is that most marked lanes in Victoria have the correct signage ie if it's painted on the road there will invariably be a posted sign. I've read, with great concern, that some other states are lax with providing the correct signage.


If it's not a bike lane, then the bicycle isn't in a road-related-area, it is simply on an unlaned road. Which means the vehicle which is behind (the car in this case) may not overtake unless it's safe to do so,
Last edited by AdelaidePeter on Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cogs19
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby cogs19 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:27 pm

human909 wrote:That said the treatment on this road is very common in the area and from my frequent experience it works well with minimal conflict. Most motorists are patient and respectful of cyclists and conflict does not occur.

Ideally I'd like to see the traffic markings get updated to cyclist merge lines. This reduces confusion from cyclists and motorists alike.
https://goo.gl/maps/uzesMzPh8a32


Generally cycling in this area is ok - but it is a rat run so some drivers are in a hurry and shouldn't be delayed.

FWIW I ride at about 30kmh through the roundabout here so you can imagine how frustrating it would be to be delayed to such an extent. :roll:

Unfortunately the sharrows are unlikely to appear here as you can see in the video how new the paint is on the bike lanes - they've just been updated.
Last edited by cogs19 on Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby cogs19 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:38 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:
cogs19 wrote:Typical issue of wanting to get in front of me and failing, so honked at me persistently. I slowed in the roundabout and gestured "what do you want" and there was a flurry of activity in the driver seat indicating for me to move over to the left - which I refused to do.


Let me preface this by saying that there is no excuse for her behaviour and I hope she gets prosecuted.

But... I've watched the video and I can only hear one short beep. I don't understand why you didn't just ride on and ignore her, instead of slowing down and having a confrontation.


I get that - it's a principle thing. I don't want to be a martyr and I have no intention of becoming a statistic because I want to make a point. But this time a rush of blood (which I think I'm more than entitled to) prompted my response. Sometimes I will just ignore or flip the bird, but sometimes things like this are the thin edge of the wedge and demand a response.

Oh and I wrote that initial post before I looked properly at video - and I admit I was wrong. There was no persistent honking. Just the one beep.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby InTheWoods » Wed Apr 18, 2018 2:53 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:
cogs19 wrote:
InTheWoods wrote:What a douche driver.

FWIW, I'm curious to know if it really was a bicycle lane under your state's road rules, or just a look-alike. If its not a real bicycle lane then technically you are supposed to give way to cars on the road when entering the road from a road related area.


It's a bike lane - it has a posted sign. My experience is that most marked lanes in Victoria have the correct signage ie if it's painted on the road there will invariably be a posted sign. I've read, with great concern, that some other states are lax with providing the correct signage.


If it's not a bike lane, then the bicycle isn't in a road-related-area, it is simply on an unlaned road. Which means the vehicle which is behind (the car in this case) may not overtake unless it's safe to do so,


As cogs has confirmed it is a bike lane, its a moot point. However I don't think you are correct. If its not a bike lane, the painted edge line means that area is the shoulder ... which is a road related area. While a bicycle can ride on shoulder, vehicles can't except for certain circumstances so it is not an "unlaned road".

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby mikesbytes » Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:27 pm

jindydiver wrote:


As good a reason why you might buy a camera as you will ever see.
I've confirmed that they didn't have a camera. He states that he will never ride again without a camera
If the R-1 rule is broken, what happens to N+1?

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby uart » Wed Apr 18, 2018 5:57 pm

bychosis wrote:it would most likely be better to claim the lane so drivers don't think they can race past. you appeared to be riding fast enough that a car would not be able to pass safely in the short section between the roundabouts.


I agree. I would definitely have held the lane between those two roundabouts.

Still, drivers should be able to figure out that they cannot overtake the cyclist inside a narrow roundabout. Cogs19 entered the roundabout ahead of the driver in each instance.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby cogs19 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:05 pm

uart wrote:I agree. I would definitely have held the lane between those two roundabouts.

Legally, in Victoria I am obliged to use the bike lane when it exists. So I would be in breach of the law if I claimed the lane.

In lieu of claiming the lane I simply burnt her off with superior acceleration, which no doubt led to her frustration. :D

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby uart » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:12 pm

cogs19 wrote:
uart wrote:I agree. I would definitely have held the lane between those two roundabouts.

Legally, in Victoria I am obliged to use the bike lane when it exists. So I would be in breach of the law if I claimed the lane. :D


I'm not familiar with the law in Vic (I'm in NSW) but I would be extremely surprised if that was the law under all circumstances. Think for example making a right hand turn, it's just not practical to do it from the cycle lane. Surely there must be exemptions for this specific case, the imminent ending of the cycle lane.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby cogs19 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:33 pm

uart wrote:I'm not familiar with the law in Vic (I'm in NSW) but I would be extremely surprised if that was the law under all circumstances. Think for example making a right hand turn, it's just not practical to do it from the cycle lane. Surely there must be exemptions for this specific case, the imminent ending of the cycle lane.


That’s correct, the exemption occurs where it’s “not practicable”. Generally this is described as when there is debris, grates etc in the lane. I’d dare say it would be a tough sell in respect to a short bit of road between roundabouts - after all the road designers saw fit to build the bike lane there for our safety. :roll:

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby uart » Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:44 pm

cogs19 wrote:That’s correct, the exemption occurs where it’s “not practicable”. Generally this is described as when there is debris, grates etc in the lane. I’d dare say it would be a tough sell in respect to a short bit of road between roundabouts - after all the road designers saw fit to build the bike lane there for our safety. :roll:


Yeah the old "not practicable" pretty much gives you free reign to do it when ever you want to. It's sufficiently vague that you can argue it in enough circumstances that it's just not worth the effort for police to try to charge you. It wasn't practicable to ride in the cycle lane on that section due to the presence of the narrow roundabouts. Same situation arises with cars parked (either legally or illegally) in the cycle lane. It's all 20/20 hindsight now, but I would never let that law deter me from taking the lane in a situation like that. About 0.0% chance of getting charged there for doing it, and about 0.0000% chance of such a charge being upheld in court if you contested it.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Wed Apr 18, 2018 7:37 pm

For additional context on cogs19's experience.

-The roads and immediate surroundings are low speed local road with plenty of cyclist and cycling signage (pedestrians as well)
-In my personal experience most people who are regulars in the area are concious of and respectful towards cyclists.
-That road in particular is either VERY local or a rat run for people trying to jump the traffic jam on Lygon. I would bet that the driver was the latter.

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familyguy
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby familyguy » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:15 am

Well it took a few months but the unsafe end of the Sutherland St Cremorne bike lane was highlighted this morning. The bike lane ends about 4m shy of the corner, and the give way control line. But it's a two-way bike lane on the northern side of the road, seen here (street view is not up to date):
https://goo.gl/maps/sbd87N3F7Y42

This means cars turning left from Park cut the corner significantly as you roll up to attempt to see down the hill and travel straight across Park to join the path opposite. Two numpties this morning nearly took my wheel off, before a third decides he wants to turn through me and just stops dead next to me with a few mouthed words. Surprise, surprise, driving a Hilux, albeit an older model.

I told him to blame council and rode across to much swearing. I have reported this to council as a "dodgy bit of work". Let's see what happens, if anything.

Jim

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jindydiver » Thu Apr 19, 2018 9:42 am

uart wrote:
cogs19 wrote:That’s correct, the exemption occurs where it’s “not practicable”. Generally this is described as when there is debris, grates etc in the lane. I’d dare say it would be a tough sell in respect to a short bit of road between roundabouts - after all the road designers saw fit to build the bike lane there for our safety. :roll:


Yeah the old "not practicable" pretty much gives you free reign to do it when ever you want to. It's sufficiently vague that you can argue it in enough circumstances that it's just not worth the effort for police to try to charge you. It wasn't practicable to ride in the cycle lane on that section due to the presence of the narrow roundabouts. Same situation arises with cars parked (either legally or illegally) in the cycle lane. It's all 20/20 hindsight now, but I would never let that law deter me from taking the lane in a situation like that. About 0.0% chance of getting charged there for doing it, and about 0.0000% chance of such a charge being upheld in court if you contested it.

Yep, never would I be caught riding in that door lane with those cars breathing down my neck.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby AdelaidePeter » Thu Apr 19, 2018 12:41 pm

familyguy wrote:Well it took a few months but the unsafe end of the Sutherland St Cremorne bike lane was highlighted this morning. The bike lane ends about 4m shy of the corner, and the give way control line. But it's a two-way bike lane on the northern side of the road, seen here (street view is not up to date):
https://goo.gl/maps/sbd87N3F7Y42

This means cars turning left from Park cut the corner significantly as you roll up to attempt to see down the hill and travel straight across Park to join the path opposite. Two numpties this morning nearly took my wheel off, before a third decides he wants to turn through me and just stops dead next to me with a few mouthed words. Surprise, surprise, driving a Hilux, albeit an older model.

I told him to blame council and rode across to much swearing. I have reported this to council as a "dodgy bit of work". Let's see what happens, if anything.

Jim


I'd move right - i.e. claim the lane - as if I was doing a right turn. Also (if you're not doing it already), I wouldn't pass anyone on the left on the approach to the intersection; instead I'd claim the lane and wait in the queue. (Usual disclaimer applies - this doesn't excuse the drivers' behaviour, but should help avoid problems).

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby familyguy » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:24 pm

AdelaidePeter wrote:I'd move right - i.e. claim the lane - as if I was doing a right turn. Also (if you're not doing it already), I wouldn't pass anyone on the left on the approach to the intersection; instead I'd claim the lane and wait in the queue. (Usual disclaimer applies - this doesn't excuse the drivers' behaviour, but should help avoid problems).


Not an option if already in bike lane, easily misunderstood. Better diagram below (one I am using to go to council):

Image

Waiting zone is in a bad spot, given the preferred driver turning zone. Will suggest to council that the line markings to turn the corner from Park to Sutherland be dashed around the corner further out.

Jim

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby AdelaidePeter » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:47 pm

familyguy wrote:
AdelaidePeter wrote:I'd move right - i.e. claim the lane - as if I was doing a right turn. Also (if you're not doing it already), I wouldn't pass anyone on the left on the approach to the intersection; instead I'd claim the lane and wait in the queue. (Usual disclaimer applies - this doesn't excuse the drivers' behaviour, but should help avoid problems).


Not an option if already in bike lane, easily misunderstood. Better diagram below (one I am using to go to council):


Sorry, I thought you meant the 2-way bike lane was on the other side of Park Ave; which was my mistake because you said "on the northern side of the road".

We have a few tracks like that around Adelaide (where there is parklands on one side of the road, so it's a natural place for a 2-way bike path). But I can't think of any which dump you at an intersection which doesn't have a traffic light.

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familyguy
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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby familyguy » Thu Apr 19, 2018 1:50 pm

While I've been through there dozens of times and I have never had an issue till this morning, it has always felt a little odd to me.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby find_bruce » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:09 pm

familyguy wrote:Image

Sweet baby cheesus. Just when you think you have seen how badly a clowncil can stuff up making "bike safe" infratructure, they come up with an improved form of stupidity

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby jasonc » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:11 pm

find_bruce wrote:Sweet baby cheesus. Just when you think you have seen how badly a clowncil can stuff up making "bike safe" infratructure, they come up with an improved form of stupidity

Helmets and rego fix everything
Image

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby familyguy » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:17 pm

Yes, I am sure they did their "traffic planning" to make sure it didn't impact car movement through the area...

To be honest, I am surprised at how much they narrowed Sutherland St.

Oh, and if you think this corner is interesting, check out Grasmere/Young St intersection since they pulled the roundabout and replaced it with one of the most convoluted bike/traffic interfaces I've ever seen. Sadly, the old layout is still on google maps. I might get some photos.

Jim

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby human909 » Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:57 pm

Why does NSW continue to insist on using on road bidirectional cycleways!? They are a dangerous type of infrastructure. If the cycle infrastructure is at all ON the road then it should be conform to normal road rules aka keep left! As soon as you go against this you introduce a very large number of potential conflicts.

Bidirectional cycle paths are great if they are off they are properly separated from the road and appropriate treatment at intersections. But if you are adding cycling infrastructure to existing roads they are generally a poor solution.

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Re: Moron Motorists #3

Postby Scott_C » Thu Apr 19, 2018 4:04 pm

familyguy wrote:
AdelaidePeter wrote:I'd move right - i.e. claim the lane - as if I was doing a right turn. Also (if you're not doing it already), I wouldn't pass anyone on the left on the approach to the intersection; instead I'd claim the lane and wait in the queue. (Usual disclaimer applies - this doesn't excuse the drivers' behaviour, but should help avoid problems).


Not an option if already in bike lane, easily misunderstood. Better diagram below (one I am using to go to council):

*snip*

Waiting zone is in a bad spot, given the preferred driver turning zone. Will suggest to council that the line markings to turn the corner from Park to Sutherland be dashed around the corner further out.

Jim

Image

Yeah, the fact that the obstructed sightlines exist because they felt the need to retain streetside parking right up to the intersection is indicative of their priorities in designing the intersection.

human909 wrote:Why does NSW continue to insist on using on road bidirectional cycleways!?

We are seeing more of these abominations here in Perth despite them being illegal to use in the contraflow direction if there is any opposing vehicular traffic unless there is physical separation between the road and the cycleway, not just paint. (Both the car and the bike violate WA Road Rule 114 with them both liable for a $150 fine and 2 demerit points for the driver).

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