Moron Motorists #3

[antigee]

Camberwell Sergeant Paul Cabai says having six officers stationed at the traffic lights meant they could more easily intercept people than when in patrol cars.
And he's promising more such operations in coming weeks.
"It doesn't surprise me (the number of people caught) because of the amount of anecdotal evidence we get

great effort - this is local to me and today a couple of junctions away watched a driver turning right off Glen Ferrie rd - 2 lanes of approaching traffic at 60km/hr and plenty of ped's on the crossings- driver rolling into the junction looking down and checking phone all the time in some sort of cocoon of blatant lack of awareness

[antigee]

Re: Moron Motorists #3
Postby trailgumby » Fri May 26, 2017 8:06 pm

Mububban wrote:
This is a common problem with modern car design. Great for cabin/roof strength and rollover protection, terrible for visibility. I watch lots of car reviews on Youtube and it's a regular comment for all cars - "pedestrians, cyclists and other vehicles can easily be obscured by this chunky A-pillar...."

Doesn't have to be. My recently acquired Subie Levorg is excellent for this. 5-star ANCAP safety rating too.

.......and a genuine 5-stars with pedestrian safety rated good - other vehicles have poor pedestrian safety ratings but can still get 5 stars..... tried to address this issue a few times with the motoring press - last year with RACV asking them to report ped' safety as a separate, this is copy letter for publication, it wasn't - follow up request to publish ped safety separately no response no real surprise and if you want to get really angry can go look at how the vehicle manufacturers have diluted ped' safety for large SUV's by insisting stuff like EBD is better than designing out hard impact areas - stuff that is easy to do and primarily benefits occupants is being passed off as ped' safety improvements

letter to RACV magazine

article "How safe is your car?

For occupants and pedestrians?
A current TAC campaign encourages people to check how safe their potential car purchase is.

It always surprises me that ANCAP pedestrian collision safety ratings are rarely if ever mentioned in vehicle reviews.

An example from the August issue would be the head to head comparison of the Honda CR-V and The Toyota Rav4. Both rate ANCAP 5-star, both have a long list of occupant safety features reported, but one rates only “marginal” for pedestrian safety the other “acceptable”, sadly neither rate “good”.

Time the motoring press encouraged drivers to look at how safe their vehicles are not just for those inside them but for pedestrians as well . Surely an organisation like the RACV can take the lead and include this information in all reviews?"
---------------------------------------
follow up "disappointed did not publish" .....

"This does beg the question as to why the separate ratings for pedestrian collision performance were consolidated into the overall star ranking and if as a consequence the automotive industry and ANCAP have not focused sufficient attention on this area. This would seem so when vehicles with both “good” pedestrian protection collision features and “marginal” pedestrian protection collision features can both obtain an overall 5-star rating."

[sobmal]

5 star safety ratings? How about the guy in the ute that tried to side swipe me off the road coming into a roundabout last week.. I think that sometimes the safest car option for these morons is to simply take the keys away.. now thats 5 star everything rating for sure!

[trailgumby]

Well done @antigee. We're NRMA members. Might do the same with them.

[Ross]

Tiger Woods arrested for drink-driving charge

http://www.news.com.au/sport/sports-lif ... 45b68b4255

GOLF superstar Tiger Woods was busted on a DUI charge in Florida overnight after police pulled him over for driving erratically — and he refused to take a breath test and behaved arrogantly, according to a report.

Woods, who lives on Jupiter Island, was arrested around 3am after police saw him driving a 2015 Mercedes “erratically, all over the road,” law enforcement sources told TMZ.

Smelling alcohol on Woods’ breath, an officer asked the golfer, who was acting “arrogant,” to take a Breathalyzer test, but he refused, the site reported.

In Florida, refusing to take a breath test leads to an automatic arrest and the suspension of a driver’s license.

Woods’ reps called police repeatedly to ask if the arresting cop had a bodycam, TMZ reported.

Woods was sprung from the Palm Beach County Jail on his own recognisance shortly before 11am. His car was picked up by someone in his camp, TMZ reported.

[jasonc]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2017-05-30/c ... ns/8570490

Caleb Jakobsson jailed for seven years for killing Andrea Lehane with 'monkey bike' at Carrum Downs

[outnabike]

Yep a life is worth 4 years with parole. He has been caught on drugs charges since. They were not considers in this verdict to further show which way this blokes life was going.

No wonder the vehicle is becoming the weapon of choice to attack people. Thugs even use it with out fear to ram and run from police cars.
You shoot some one and get ten years, simply run them over and get half the sentence.

[fat and old]

Modern cars have crumple zones and the bull bar was mounted in front of the crumple zone, attached to the chassis. My question is, does the car have the same safety level with a bull bar that it did prior to the fitting?

That would depend on the bar he had. I have an ARB on my Patrol and Hilux. From ARB's site:

ARB has invested heavily in vehicle crash barrier tests to validate the performance and compliance of its air bag compatible bull bars. To ensure compatibility, ARB assesses each vehicle’s frontal crush characteristics and replicates the crush rate in the design of each air bag compatible bull bar and mounting system.

Using this method ensures that the vehicle’s crush rate and air bag triggering are not altered when a bull bar is installed.

https://www.arb.com.au/products/protect ... rotection/

That would explain the increasing ugly factor in later models I know one of the Mech Engineers involved with ARB, and have no reason to doubt their blurb. From all accounts you pay a premium because of the R&D they input. TJM would likely be in that category as well.

Of course, over the last decade there has been a flood of imported O/S and locally designed barwork that I would seriously doubt comes up to that standard. As usual, caveat emptor.

As to this

I think bull bars have no place in the urban environment. They should be banned for all cars resident in urban areas. The only people who should be allowed to use them are farmers, those living or working on the land, or stock and station agents.

Ridiculous. I am in the same boat as Bychosis. As well as recovery in Urban creek/waterline and green wedge environments I use mine for a variety of work purposes. I could choose to use a 4wd light truck, along with it's greater on road bulk that will cause even greater issues of the type that most detractors cite. In fact it would probably be of greater benefit to me in my industry.

Which would you prefer to ride alongside? A standard Patrol/Hilux or a standard 4wd truck?

[fat and old]

We have recently had a work ute fitted with a winch and bull bar to mount it. It was installed due to a WHS issue funnily enough. We can no longer tow other vehicles out of being bogged, a winch was determined to be the next best solution

Without malice...

If the people who made that decision truly believe that to be the "next best", they need to undertake some sort of off-road driver training by a reputable entity that specialises in that area. Winching is The Best solution. As usual, this assumes that the users are correctly trained in the proper use and upkeep of said equipment.

[fat and old]

Further to the above....

I can understand the angst that 4wd's and their users cop. There is no denying what the eyes see on a daily basis. However, there is no difference when painting all 4wd users as idiots/haters etc to other road users painting all cyclists as red light runners because they see a few.

[Arbuckle23]

Where do I stand? 4WD owner (with bullbar) and cyclist

[RobertL]

Where do I stand? 4WD owner (with bullbar) and cyclist

I have a 2WD white Hilux Ute with no bullbar. Do I rank above or below Arbuckle23?

[duncanm]

Further to the above....

I can understand the angst that 4wd's and their users cop. There is no denying what the eyes see on a daily basis. However, there is no difference when painting all 4wd users as idiots/haters etc to other road users painting all cyclists as red light runners because they see a few.

this.

There are idiots everywhere. I don't see any higher proportion of 4wd idiots than any other type of car. There are more idiots in late-model Commodores, but I don't tar all Commodore drivers with the idiot brush.

Yes - in a full frontal with a 4wd, the smaller car will come off worse just due to vehicle mass and basic physics, crush zones notwithstanding. Using this logic, all drivers should be rolling around in Fiat 500's with modern crash protection. Maybe Toyota Yaris' ?

I'm afraid a stolen car doing 100km/h along a major thoroughfare whilst ignoring red lights is a death waiting to happen, regardless of the vehicles involved.

[antigee]

"Postby fat and old » Tue May 30, 2017 1:56 pm

mikesbytes wrote:

Modern cars have crumple zones and the bull bar was mounted in front of the crumple zone, attached to the chassis. My question is, does the car have the same safety level with a bull bar that it did prior to the fitting?


That would depend on the bar he had. I have an ARB on my Patrol and Hilux. From ARB's site:

ARB has invested heavily in vehicle crash barrier tests to validate the performance and compliance of its air bag compatible bull bars. To ensure compatibility, ARB assesses each vehicle’s frontal crush characteristics and replicates the crush rate in the design of each air bag compatible bull bar and mounting system.

Using this method ensures that the vehicle’s crush rate and air bag triggering are not altered when a bull bar is installed.

https://www.arb.com.au/products/protect ... rotection/"

....so it has the same safety level for the occupants ? (as far as I'm aware neither of these vehicles have the very rare ped' air bags) what about ped's? (there are no tests for cyclists)

incidentally I thought winches could be mounted without a full bull bar - more like an extended bumper that retains the "soft" impact top front end of the original vehicle design - this sort of thing

[fat and old]

....so it has the same safety level for the occupants ? (as far as I'm aware neither of these vehicles have the very rare ped' air bags) what about ped's? (there are no tests for cyclists)

Actually, I was thinking about this on the way home tonight, and regardless of any blurb by the manufacturers I'd have to say no. I cannot imagine a bullbar yielding as much as a composite bumper if striking a ped or cyclist. My uneducated opinion.

I will state what I've always believed. If there's a ped or cycle on your bullbar, bonnet, windscreen....there's a bigger issue than what you have on the front of your vehicle.

As to the winch as shown, I haven't seen those in Australia. They're probably available, I'm not sure. Common enough in America. May be a volume issue here.

Edit: I have at times braced my vehicle against a tree or some such to provide anchoring when winching. I wouldn't do that with that bar shown.

[outnabike]

Where do I stand? 4WD owner (with bullbar) and cyclist

I have a 2WD white Hilux Ute with no bullbar. Do I rank above or below Arbuckle23?

You are all good mate.
I own a Land Cruiser, a Ford ute, I stuff up traffic with a caravan.....and I ride my bike in traffic. I too read of the psychosis in some threads and just laugh at the high moral grounders.
What is important is to get the drift that being a cyclist you will have twice the road skills than most drivers and it helps you survive.

[bychosis]

We have recently had a work ute fitted with a winch and bull bar to mount it. It was installed due to a WHS issue funnily enough. We can no longer tow other vehicles out of being bogged, a winch was determined to be the next best solution

Without malice...

If the people who made that decision truly believe that to be the "next best", they need to undertake some sort of off-road driver training by a reputable entity that specialises in that area. Winching is The Best solution. As usual, this assumes that the users are correctly trained in the proper use and upkeep of said equipment.

Perhaps the wrong phrase, it was the next solution considered to be the safest etc when combined with proper training. I do realise the next best often means second best, but wasn't intended that way.

[DavidS]

My main issue is that there are a hell of a lot of 4WDs, and moreso SUVs, running around on the roads and they are just unnecessary. So many don't go anywhere near offroad. Get a sedan or wagon. I have never understood why so many people feel the need to drive an SUV around the city, where I live (Bayside Melbourne) there are heaps of them.

If you own a 4WD because you go offroad or need it for various reasons I have no issue. It's all these mobile lounge rooms, many of which have little offroad ability anyway, which irritate me: they use more fuel, are larger and heavier, don't handle so well, and in so many cases are just unnecessary for the morning school run.

DS

[mikesbytes]

Interesting conversation. It's pleasing to see that some bull bar manufacturers are considering the occupant safety in their design and testing.

I've also seen that some vehicle manufacturers are considering the safety of Pedestrians in their design. My question here is whether there is govt regulation on pedestrian safety for motor vehicles?

[fat and old]

Interesting conversation. It's pleasing to see that some bull bar manufacturers are considering the occupant safety in their design and testing.

I've also seen that some vehicle manufacturers are considering the safety of Pedestrians in their design. My question here is whether there is govt regulation on pedestrian safety for motor vehicles?

AS 4876.1–2002, Motor vehicle frontal protection systems. Part 1: Road User Protection

The preface explicitly excludes occupant protection

This Standard was prepared by the Australian members for the Joint Standards
Australia/Standards New Zealand Committee ME-083, Motor Vehicles—Frontal Protection
Systems. After consultation with stakeholders in both countries, Standards Australia and
Standards New Zealand decided to develop this Standard as an Australian Standard rather
than an Australian/New Zealand Standard.
The objective of this Standard is to provide manufacturers with performance requirements
for vehicle frontal protection systems (VFPS) and address issues, such as the following:
(a) Applicable Australian Design Rules requirements.
(b) Road user protection requirements.
(c) Test methods.
(d) Marking and packaging.
This Standard does not address the issue of VFPS compatibility with Vehicle Occupant
Protection Systems (e.g. air bag triggering).

And an older CASR reprt, compares in part the EU and Au standards (at the time of publication. 2005)

http://casr.adelaide.edu.au/publication ... ASR037.pdf

Further, I note the preamble on Autoliv's site promoting their bonnet mounted ped airbag system

Many pedestrians are killed on the world’s roads. Autoliv's Active Hood and Pedestrian Protection Airbag (PPA)address this problem.

To protect the head of a pedestrian, the hood of the car needs to be able to act as a cushion. This can be achieved using airbag technology to lift the rear-end of the hood to create clearance to the engine block and other rigid structures beneath the hood.

In many smaller vehicles the hood is too short. The head of a pedestrian will then most likely hit the hard area between the hood and the windscreen or hit one of the roof-pillars. In this case outside airbags can be used to create a cushion-effect.

The sensor system is a critical component in a pedestrian safety system. There are basically three different type of sensors:
- contact sensors in the bumper
- stereo vision camera
- night vision camera
or a combination of the above with radar sensors
The sensors will initially warn the driver or brake the vehicle before activating the active hood and/or the pedestrian airbag.

https://www.autoliv.com/ProductsAndInno ... ction.aspx

Interestingly, the bold highlighted part would indicate that smaller cars are actually a greater danger to peds than larger/longer vehicles (with a hood/bonnet). This would make sense to me, although I can imagine that smaller vehicle users would not like to think of their cars being more dangerous than a larger unit. Personally, I chuckle at the irony.

[fat and old]

I have never understood why so many people feel the need to drive an SUV around the city, where I live (Bayside Melbourne) there are heaps of them.

They are a status symbol (everywhere, not just bayside). Much the same as a newer bike or fancy jersey is for some cyclists.

[mikesbytes]

Interesting point about where the Ped's head hits. I'm reading into that info that the Ped is better off if their head hits the bonnet, rather than the windscreen etc. Technically then a bullbar could be designed to improve Ped safety as it flicks the ped onto the bonnet rather than the windscreen etc.

[human909]

I'm reading into that info that the Ped is better off if their head hits the bonnet, rather than the windscreen etc.

Thick(ish) glass has far less give than thin sheet metal.

[hunch]

A 3 or 4 speed gearbox in an old land cruiser or land rover which might top out at 80 klicks and handled like a bucket of shizen above 20, compared to a lounge on wheels nowadays, favourable tax treatment and above the hoi-polloi on the road might explain the explosion in numbers in the last 25~30 years? Must admit driving a mate's hummer always gets clear space from lesser mortals looking up from their prados and rangies!

Technically then a bullbar could be designed to improve Ped safety as it flicks the ped onto the bonnet rather than the windscreen etc.

Dunno, you'd need something like a very long cow catcher on a steam train....and lots of people have difficultly judging extremities already! My two worst interactions with vehicles have involved bullbars, both under 10kph and probably closer to 5, one resulted in severe bruising from the impact with the bar work and gravel rash from bouncing straight to the road. The other one, managed to get the corner of the bar, broken tibia in a couple of spots and 9 months recovery. I don't like getting hit by any of them no matter their crumple capacity, I do wonder what happened to the clear plastic ones from a decade or so back.

I can say I have seen those roller winches up here.

[fat and old]

Technically then a bullbar could be designed to improve Ped safety as it flicks the ped onto the bonnet rather than the windscreen etc.

Perhaps, although I'd doubt seeing it. One of the considerations with bullbars is the approach/departure angle. This will be at least equal to if not (preferably) greater than the stock bumper. That would be at odds with the idea of "flicking" a ped up onto the bonnet. I cannot see any manufacturer compromising approach angle unless the bar was specifically designed and marketed as being for the purpose of ped safety 1st and off road capability 2nd. IIRC the old plastic bars used to do that?

Edit: Yeah, the Smart Bar. Apparently they are the ones that produce those jobbies such as Antigee showed too.

Pedestrian and Occupant Safety

SmartBar offers outstanding performance and safety levels to both occupant and pedestrians, currently not available from any other manufacturer in the World.

Tests by the Centre of Automotive and Safety Research (CASR) for HIC (Head Impact Criteria) which measures the head trauma and accident survival probability at certain speeds, confirm that SmartBar outperforms all other frontal vehicle protection systems available.

SmartBar is tested to the Australian standard AS4876.1. These tests demonstrate the shock absorbing ability, and superb damage control of the SmartBar design.

http://www.smartbar.com.au/about-smartb ... nt-safety/